To-do list:
- Move examples of Tier Induced Scrappy between either Low-Tier Letdown (for low-tier examples) and High-Tier Scrappy (for high-tier examples) if they fit. note that being hated by players is a required part of the definition; examples that do not mention that aspect are ZCEs and/or misuse.
Final count:
- Correct (Disliked By the Community): 4
- Incorrect (Not Disliked By the Community or No Mention of Scrappy-related Qualities): 38
- Incorrect (Wrong Placements AND No Scrappy-dom): 5
- Ambiguous (Unknown if Scrappy-dom is Accurate): 3
Wicks: 50/50
So I think there's largely two ways we can go about this, from what I understand upon looking at likewise posts:
- Scrap all the entries that aren't Tier-Induced Scrappies and remodel the trope into something indictive of its name.
- Split the trope between there being a trope for meta ranking versus actual Scrappy-dom.
I'm in favor of Option 1, personally, because TV Tropes is all about fandom as a wholesale. Meta shouldn't hold an influence outside of a Just For Fun sort of thing if it doesn't impact the fandom itself. That's at least what I think. All I think doing a split will do will merely make it more counter-intuitive and cause trope bloat for the other option, and may not even uniquely solve the problem that was there to begin with.
Wick check:
Tier-Induced Scrappies are, by definition, characters of overwhelming strength or overwhelming weakness that are disliked within the game precisely because of that. By its nature that isn't inherently a bad thing, but the problem is that it often completely foregoes its own definition:"Two variations of The Scrappy specific to Video Games and/or Tabletop Games.
The first, often seen in fighting games, concerns the best characters getting hated not out of a hatedom but for being overused and/or downright difficult to defeat due to their high power, gameplay-wise; understandably, those two points get on a lot of people's nerves and tend to be favored by other people. Characters who are Difficult, but Awesome tend to avoid this fate because they are hard to play well, but disproportionately powerful examples can still earn this status. A typical Tier Induced Scrappy is a high tier character with next to no learning curve, though high learning curve characters who are unreasonably difficult to beat when played by a master (especially if they also happen to be extremely frustrating to play against and/or boring to watch) can and will earn this status. Stone Wall characters are the most common candidates for this trope (especially heavy zoners), though touch-of-death rushdown characters (particularly ones with good approach options) also tend to earn the playerbase's hatred. Characters with massive weaknesses who are strong in spite of those weaknesses are also common targets just based off of principle; people hate unbalanced characters, and these characters are often powerful when they shouldn't be. See also Too Qualified to Apply. In other genres than fighting games, such as MOBA or Hero Shooter, these high-tiers can also be hated for being extremely difficult to deal with (if you're the enemy) or making the game centered around them and them alone (thus making you feel pointless if they're on your team). And for single-player games, they can be hated for being so powerful that they remove all challenge from the game.
The other, more common to RPGs, is a character who is widely hated because they just suck in gameplay terms. They might be the nicest person in the world, but if they're The Load in combat or gameplay, their fate is decided. A Low Tier Induced Scrappy has no Magikarp Power; they're bad from the start and they never get to a point where they become worth the trouble or able to hold their own, no matter how much you invest into them, especially when there's other, more rewarding characters on hand. In fighting games and MOBAs, they are frequently Skill Gate Characters who are easy to pick up and do well with and are dominant in lower-level play, but do exceptionally poorly in higher-level play; the Scrappy part often comes from bad players who insist on using them with the same suboptimal strategies and builds and refuse to get better, get destroyed by competent players, and proceed to ragequit, lagswitch (if possible), abuse report functions, send abusive private messages, rage on message boards demanding nerfs, and generally act like incorrigible Scrubs."
The problem that comes from this is how it's rarely often the character themselves aren't hated for being high-tier or low-tier, but are listed in spite of such. Seriously, I've done a wick check, and these were my results:
Wicks Checked: 50/50
- The Wolfguard (Roshea, Vyland, Sedgar and Wolf) from Fire Emblem: New Mystery of the Emblem: They go into detail of why they're disliked so much as units in FE12 while also pointing out they lack the character appeal to truly be saved as a wholesale (because the Archanea games are very characterization-light compared to other installments; even given Wolf and Sedgar were extremely useful in FE11, they don't stand out nearly as much as characters or individuals to really be seen as anything but a malignant tumor that comes with prepromotes in FE12 being so hideously badly-designed).
- Nash from Street Fighter V: Actual documentation given of with the users of Nash considering him cheap, and being very unfun to fight against.
- Bayonetta from Smash Bros.: Actual documentation given and it being historical how reviled she was in Smash 4, and how much a lot of that stigma hasn't just up and vanished even with Ultimate.
- Conjurer from Bravely Default: The Conjurer class lacks the character appeal or mechanics to save it, so it qualifies.
- Juno from Fire Emblem: The Binding Blade: Zero mention of actual Scrappy-dom, placement focuses solely on mechanical lackluster nature.
- Amelia from Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones: Especially damning, given it notes her as an Ensemble Dark Horse than focus on anything regarding Scrappy-dom.
- Lorenz from Fire Emblem: Three Houses: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak.
- Regular Jakob: Again, no mention or allusion of Scrappy-dom.
- Guinevere: Again, no mention or allusion of Scrappy-dom.
- The Five Greatwyrms from Dragalia Lost: Again, no mention or allusion of Scrappy-dom.
- Maribelle from Dragalia Lost: Again, no mention or allusion of Scrappy-dom.
- Sigurd from Fate/Grand Order: Again, no mention or allusion of Scrappy-dom. Especially damning, given it notes him as an Ensemble Dark Horse than focus on anything regarding Scrappy-dom.
- Mightyena from Pokémon: Especially damning, given it notes it as an Ensemble Dark Horse than focus on anything regarding Scrappy-dom.
- Volcarona from Pokémon: Again, no mention or allusion of Scrappy-dom. Even worse, Volcarona I can confirm is a very popular Pokémon in general, so...
- Cielo from Shin Megami Tensei: Digital Devil Saga: While Cielo is explained why they're weak, it's highly subjective and far from general agreement, as Cielo is an extremely popular character among MegaTen fans. Plus, he does have massive use especially versus the Superboss, and even then is far from useless. Can personally attest against him being disliked.
- Gotenks from Dragon Ball Fighter Z: Again, no mention or allusion of Scrappy-dom.
- Archfey Warlock from Dungeons & Dragons: Again, no mention or allusion of Scrappy-dom.
- Revenant from Apex Legends: Again, no mention or allusion of Scrappy-dom, aside from "falling to the bottom of the Scrappy heap". Cannot confirm as somebody who doesn't play Apex Legends if it's accurate, but I'm doubtful.
- Caustic from Apex Legends: Absolutely zero mention of Scrappy-dom and is a Base-Breaking Character, so even worse.
- Lt. Morales from Heroes of the Storm: No mention of Scrappy-dom, or that it's been on "both" ends, confusingly enough.
- Lyndis from Fire Emblem: The Blazing Blade: Especially damning, given it notes her as an Ensemble Dark Horse than focus on anything regarding Scrappy-dom.
- Reaper from Overwatch: Folder gives nothing about actual Scrappy-dom, and is too jumbled overall.
- The Laid-back personality: Again, no mention or allusion of Scrappy-dom outside of vague subjectivities and unknowns.
- Red and White from Magic: The Gathering: Nevermind Boros being a very popular combination color-wise, it's only focusing on the fact that it sucks in Commander. That's it.
- Rachel Alucard from BlazBlue: Continuum Shift: Again, no mention or allusion of Scrappy-dom.
- The Onion Knight from Dissidia: Final Fantasy: Again, no mention or allusion of Scrappy-dom.
- Dan Hibiki from Street Fighter: Again, no mention or allusion of Scrappy-dom outside of some extremely vague language, or discernible proof of such.
- Dragoons from Final Fantasy XI: A very popular class, so no mention of Scrappy-dom.
- Diddy Kong from Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak.
- Patrick from SpongeBob SquarePants: Battle for Bikini Bottom: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak.
- Mouse-Man from Wonder Boy III: The Dragon's Trap: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak. Also, dafuq?
- Dwarves from Total War: Warhammer: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak. Dwarves are popular as hell too in Warhammer, dafuq?
- Robo from Chrono Trigger: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak.
- Sten from Dragon Age: Origins: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak.
- Vincent from Final Fantasy VII: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak. And he's an Ensemble Dark Horse, so dafuq?
- Xigbar from Kingdom Hearts 365 1/2 Days: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak. And he's an Ensemble Dark Horse, so dafuq?
- Kaiden Alenko from Mass Effect: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak.
- Yusuke from Persona 5: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak.
- Hope from Xenoblade Chronicles X: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak, and she's a well-liked character in spite of it.
- The Twins from Dead by Daylight: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak.
- Fighter and Monk in Pathfinder: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak.
- Takeda Clan from Total War: Shogun 2: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak, and they're popular.
- Alchemist from Dota 2: Again, no mentions of Scrappy-dom, and it's outside of it's main file.
- Tyrael from Heroes of the Storm: Again, no mentions of Scrappy-dom, and it's outside of it's main file.
- Kind and Laid-back Personality from Miitopia: Again, no mentions of Scrappy-dom, and it's outside of it's main file.
- The Nightmare from Dead by Daylight: Again, no mentions of Scrappy-dom, and it's outside of it's main file.
- The Monk in Dungeons and Dragons 3.5e: Again, no mentions of Scrappy-dom, and it's outside of it's main file.
- Nuubee from J Stars Victory VS: Unknown if reasons listed for being disliked are legitimate. May need confirmation.
- Lian from Paladins: Seems to be legit, but otherwise seems to focus on how OP their auto-aim abilities are.
- The Boss Characters from 100% Orange Juice: Seems legit, but needs confirmation from the fandom.
Final count:
- Correct (Disliked By the Community): 4
- Incorrect (Not Disliked By the Community or No Mention of Scrappy-related Qualities): 38
- Incorrect (Wrong Placements AND No Scrappy-dom): 5
- Ambiguous (Unknown if Scrappy-dom is Accurate): 3
Wicks: 50/50
Edited by GastonRabbit on May 23rd 2023 at 9:26:14 AM
Just stoic wisdom.
<700. Even as a not-much-of-a-gamer, this one isn't difficult to work on since there's usually context clues as to which reason the character's hated. If not, a quick search pulls it up!
Vehicle-Based Characterization | Grief-Induced Split | Locker Mail
Shouldn't the disambig page's descriptions be updated? Some of the existing Tier Induced Scrappy, High-Tier Scrappy, and Low-Tier Letdown examples also pertain to weapons and items, not just characters.
With Great Power, Comes Great Motivation
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Done.
Just stoic wisdom.
Those should go in Scrappy Weapon, should they not?
Hmm... now that you've mentioned it, it might make sense. I forgot about the existence of Scrappy Weapon, haha.
Initially, I just wanted to point out that non-character examples (such as items/weapons/cards in collectible card games/vehicles in racing games) were being listed on the Tier Induced Scrappy examples before and after the disambiguation attempt. The Laconics of both Low-Tier Letdown and High-Tier Scrappy also mention "someone or something". Having the Tier Induced Scrappy disambig page mention only "characters" may make it misleading when the two specific items it mentions also cover non-character examples.
Perhaps there should be a clean-up effort to move TIS/LTL/HTS weapon examples to Scrappy Weapon? For instance:
- On the High-Tier Scrappy page itself, there are examples of firearms in the First-Person Shooters folder, listing stuff from the Call of Duty or Halo series, etc. The Third Person Shooter folder also mentions the rifles from Gears of War.
- Low-Tier Letdown examples are also affected. For example, LowTierLetdown.Genshin Impact has a folder for weapons. The same is true for LowTierLetdown.Dragalia Lost.
- On the Related Pages, I actually came across weapon examples in TIS when attempting to move the green links to either LTL or HTS. An example would be in YMMV.Devil May Cry 5, which I recently edited.
Edited by DanteVin on Apr 21st 2023 at 10:53:48 PM
With Great Power, Comes Great Motivation
Just stoic wisdom.
Since Scrappy Weapon appears a bunch in the wicks, I added it to the disambig and reverted HTS/LTL to be just about characters and SW for items/moves/weapons (as is stated in its trope description). If this was a bit too rogue a move on my part, feel free to change it.
Edited by Yindee on Apr 21st 2023 at 11:00:10 AM
Vehicle-Based Characterization | Grief-Induced Split | Locker MailFortunately, I only made few edits in helping with the TIS dewicking so far.
I'll go back to those edits and see if some examples actually fit Scrappy Weapon better.
With Great Power, Comes Great Motivation
low-poly Shinri
Where should this entry on YMMV.The Legend Of Heroes Trails Of Cold Steel go on; High-Tier Scrappy or Scrappy Weapon
- High-Tier Scrappy: Chrono Burst ends up becoming the most useful arte of the game as it allows players to have infinite amounts of turns as long as players have enough items to accommodate for the upkeep of the characters' EP.
Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel
Isn't The Legend of Heroes a single-player JRPG series? I feel like a High-Tier Scrappy can only really happen in multiplayer environments, since the frustration comes from getting your ass kicked by other players using the broken thing.
It's already on GameBreaker.Trails Series, which I think is the best place for it.
Just stoic wisdom.
Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel
I tried doing a bit more dewicking, but felt demotivated after I realized that I can't help but reflexively type Low-Tier Scrappy instead of Low-Tier Letdown. Thankfully, I caught myself after only a few edits, but I wonder if that could be a viable redirect.
Generally I copy and paste when dewicking.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I made it a redirect for parity with High-Tier Scrappy's primary name.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I saw that some of the Tier Induced Scrappy subpages haven't been sorted through.
Here's the full list of pages in that namespace and whether they still need to be split or whether they've already been split. I handled a few of them, but I'm taking a break after that because of carpal tunnel.
- TierInducedScrappy.Apex Legends still needs to be split; it's neither soft-split nor hard-split.
- TierInducedScrappy.Clash Royale was soft-split between the old types (from when Tier Induced Scrappy covered both high-tier and low-tier) and needed to be hard-split between High-Tier Scrappy and Low-Tier Letdown instead, so that's been fixed.
- TierInducedScrappy.Dead By Daylight still needs to be split; it's neither soft-split nor hard-split.
- TierInducedScrappy.Dragon Ball Fighter Z was disambiguated between subpages for High-Tier Scrappy and Low-Tier Letdown, so we're good here.
- TierInducedScrappy.Jurassic World Alive was split incorrectly because it was soft-split instead of hard-split, so that's been fixed.
- TierInducedScrappy.Paladins was split incorrectly because it was soft-split instead of hard-split, so that's been fixed.
- TierInducedScrappy.Path Of Exile still needs to be split; it's neither soft-split nor hard-split.
- TierInducedScrappy.Rifts is soft-split and needs to be hard-split.
- TierInducedScrappy.Shadowverse was disambiguated between subpages for High-Tier Scrappy and Low-Tier Letdown, so we're good here.
- TierInducedScrappy.Shin Megami Tensei is soft-split and needs to be hard-split.
- TierInducedScrappy.Starcraft II Coop Mode still needs to be split; it's soft-split based on game elements instead of tiers.
- TierInducedScrappy.Street Fighter V still needs to be split; it's neither soft-split nor hard-split.
- TierInducedScrappy.Super Smash Bros was disambiguated between subpages for High-Tier Scrappy and Low-Tier Letdown, so we're good here.
- TierInducedScrappy.Super Smash Bros 64 is a redirect, so it's fine.
- TierInducedScrappy.Super Smash Bros Brawl is a redirect, so it's fine.
- TierInducedScrappy.Super Smash Bros For Nintendo 3 DS And Wii U is a redirect, so it's fine.
- TierInducedScrappy.Super Smash Bros Melee is a redirect, so it's fine.
- TierInducedScrappy.Super Smash Bros Ultimate is a redirect, so it's fine.
- TierInducedScrappy.The Binding Of Isaac still needs to be split; it's soft-split based on game elements instead of tiers.
- TierInducedScrappy.The King Of Fighters XV still needs to be split; it's neither soft-split nor hard-split.
- TierInducedScrappy.World Of Warships still needs to be split; it's neither soft-split nor hard-split.
- TierInducedScrappy.Yu Gi Oh was disambiguated between subpages for High-Tier Scrappy and Low-Tier Letdown, so we're good here.
Edited by GastonRabbit on May 2nd 2023 at 2:16:40 PM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Ambassador of Eurogames and Touhou Music
How about just merging Scrappy Weapon with Low-Tier Letdown? I think having all the "this element is disliked for being too weak/awkward to use/etc." examples in one place is more convenient. And for high tiers, we don't distinguish between "characters who are hated for being too good" and "weapons, mon, etc. that are hated for being too good" — if the laconic of High-Tier Scrappy is anything to go by, they all go under that audience reaction.
Edited by MathsAngelicVersion on May 3rd 2023 at 11:46:45 AM
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
We're not touching Scrappy Weapon in this thread, especially not without a wick check. Give it its own thread if it needs to be taken to TRS.
Edited by GastonRabbit on May 3rd 2023 at 5:31:35 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Ambassador of Eurogames and Touhou Music
I brought it up because I wanted to question the value of keeping Scrappy Weapon and Low-Tier Letdown separate, which is relevant to how High-Tier Scrappy and LTL are defined. I think it's better to just let both cover items, weapons, attacks, etc. in addition to characters. I've put Scrappy Weapon on Tropes Needing TRS for now.
Edited by MathsAngelicVersion on May 3rd 2023 at 2:46:47 PM
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Weren’t we adding a rule that says “no bringing up other tropes that don’t have wick checks on threads”?
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
the Retromancer
That discussion is ongoing here
.
Lucas the Dreamer
I added The Binding of Isaac to the cut list. Added The Lost, Jacob and Esau, Tainted Cain, Tainted Eden, Tainted Lost, and Tainted Jacob to the main YMMV page under Low-Tier Letdown. I don’t think High-Tier Scrappy applies to a primarily single player game.
Edited by TheLivingDrawing on May 3rd 2023 at 6:09:40 AM
Why waste time when you can see the last sunset last?
I'm honestly not sure The Lost or T. Jacob even count anymore. The former only really got flak in Rebirth when they didn't start with Holy Mantle (and at the start of Repentance when Holy Mantle got nerfed, but that's been reverted), while the latter has since been buffed into a state that's generally considered very challenging, but very fun once you've gotten the hang of it.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Did some work on the subpages, starting in alphabetical order with TierInducedScrappy.Apex Legends, and moved the examples to the game's YMMV page and cut the pre-split page. Eight subpages still need to have their examples sorted.
Edited by GastonRabbit on May 8th 2023 at 9:20:55 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I took care of a few more subpages, so five left to go. Had to cut one because a lot of examples lacked proper context, and the ones that had context didn't mention players' opinions despite these being Audience Reactions.
Edited by GastonRabbit on May 8th 2023 at 7:29:44 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Only TierInducedScrappy.Street Fighter V and TierInducedScrappy.World Of Warships are left for the subpages. At least one of the pages I checked today already had Low-Tier Letdown and High-Tier Scrappy subpages for the series, and the Tier Induced Scrappy page just wasn't disambiguated or cut for some reason (I disambiguated it).
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Crown Description:
Consensus was to split the low-tier and high-tier examples of Tier Induced Scrappy into separate tropes. What should the trope for high-tier examples be called?
<800.
Vehicle-Based Characterization | Grief-Induced Split | Locker Mail