Needs Help: Queer Media

It's a trope, not an index.

Edited by Twiddler on Aug 29th 2021 at 7:23:19 AM

- But Every work in there would go on this index, or something, no?

Edited by Malady on Aug 29th 2021 at 9:16:12 AM

We may have to add some special criteria for children's media; I took a look at the index again and it's only really the literature that really tackles queer identity, whether it be the kid realizing their queer and/or LGBT family. They're still hampered in just how they can approach queerness/queer identity. It does feel wrong to leave some of those media out, like say in describing The Backstagers or Ikenfell's central premise, do not have to do with the characters' queerness. But for those pieces of media, almost all the main characters are queer and they do deal with romantic subplots and general acceptance/Be Yourself themes. But it was a deliberate choice to have most of the characters be queer, The Backstagers has a queer creator, etc.

Edited by MegaJ on Aug 29th 2021 at 11:25:31 AM

So does subtext not count here? Steven Universe has a love story between two alien women that face Fantastic Racism, which is very famously seen as analogous to homophobia (though it's also influenced by racism towards interracial relationships). No, it's not technically about being queer, because yada yada Discount Lesbians, but nearly everybody who's seen the show sees it as queer media because its subtext and context both deal with queer issues — just through an alien context.

Here's my issue: if queer romance stories in which the queerness is treated as no big deal are decided not to count, then a lot of works made by and for queer people are going to be left out. Like it says on Non-Heteronormative Society, one of the reasons why the trope happens is:

• The media is aimed at a queer audience, and therefore is portraying a society that better represents it. As a form of escapism, it also allows this audience to be told a story of a world where homophobia and transphobia are non-existent or problems of the long-forgotten past.

If we require Queer Troubles to be on the media, it becomes and Issue Book trope, and that should...at least be clarified.

I feel like turning Speculative Fiction LGBT into an index would solve some of the problems, as we could just punt the Non-Heteronormative Society/queer subtext but not queer explicit works there and then deal with everything else.

In any case, I prefer how Speculative Fiction LGBT describes the works and suggest we use similar descriptions for the works on Queer Media.

Are there any examples of Non-Heteronormative Society that would have issues with being placed in Queer Media? She-ra was mentioned, but as I explained, it's a kids' show so it's not going to be able to really have clear queer themes.

Edited by MegaJ on Aug 30th 2021 at 8:22:30 AM

I think these are examples of such:

• Neo Kosmos is about 3 children raised by aliens who are a One-Gender Race. None of them bat an eye at the children being non-binary or transgender and they are never misgendered in the work. This is just background worldbuilding however, as the story itself is about an invasion by space pirates that the character's genders have no bearing on.

• Nebula is about a group of Nonhuman Nonbinary Anthropomorphic Personifications, with the main characters who use they/them pronouns always being referred to correctly by narration and the other characters. The story itself is about a Humanoid Abomination plotting to murder them all while one of them slowly goes insane, with the characters genders being irrelevant.

Both have all or majority non-binary/transgender casts that are referred to respectfully, but neither's story would be different if the characters happened to be cisgender.

Edited by Orbiting on Aug 30th 2021 at 10:13:05 AM

Neo Kosmos seems to have been made with the intent on showcasing queer and neurodiverse characters, so made we could add this to the criteria:

• Works featuring a Non-Heteronormative Society, if the intent is featuring queer people and/or focusing on queer themes without the fear of discrimination and marginalization and as a form of escapism.

Then for children's works we could add:

• Children's works with LBGT characters at the center of the story are limited in terms of what queer themes they can present but will usually use fantastic metaphors, have a Non-Heteronormative Society, showcase LGBT families, and/or have self-actualization as a core theme.

This should keep out stuff like The Dragon Prince and Kipo and the Age of Wonderbeasts that do have queer characters but are not central to the story.

That would help, but also it looks like Neo Kosmos is a children's work so it would be in the same category as She-ra. I can't find any info on Nebula's intent.

Edited by MegaJ on Aug 30th 2021 at 9:40:11 AM

Would that require Word of God for confirmation of authorial intent?

Edited by Orbiting on Aug 30th 2021 at 10:33:41 AM

I'm very dubious about making a definition that relies on authorial intent.

I'm also not sure we want to start allowing LGBT metaphors in. Like, should the 2000s X-men movies count? The metaphor there is so blatant it's become a joke. I don't we should have separate standards if a work is aimed at children, that doesn't make sense to me.

I've also got some questions about Speculative Fiction LGBT, but that should be its own thread.

Edited by TheMountainKing on Aug 30th 2021 at 12:54:32 PM

I mean, the reason I bring up SU is because it has metaphors for homophobia, but they're applied to a romance that is indeed lesbian in context.

Children's media will just have different and restricted ways they can explore queerness, like LGBT content in children's media just broke out in The New '10s so I don't think it's fair evenly compare it to media for adults, that deal with no restrictions. Maybe instead of "criteria," that part I proposed could just be an addendum to the main description.

I was referring to children's media using metaphors on top of queer characters/themes, something like X-Men would most definitely not count as Queer Media. The only thing that could really count is that one Iceman volume where he deals with the ramifications of coming out.

Look up 'queernorm'. Here's some lists and writings on the topic: [1] [2] [3] [4][5] [6] [7] [8]

And that's just from poking around the first page of google results. This is a huge thing in queer fantasy/sci fi. And these are just from the results that happened to be connected to the term 'queernorm', there's countless more that don't put a label to it. And this is just within the medium of literature. (and not even looking into indie/self-published/small publisher stuff) Media with a lower barrier of entry for creators and less censorship concerns, like webcomics, indie games, podcasts, and web lit (including fanfic) will have more.

It doesn't even have to be fantasy/sci fi! There's also works in "our world" settings focusing on LGBT characters/relationships where homophobia never seems to be a concern. I've heard Boy Meets Boy is an example of this. The various Lovestruck series, by and large, make use of Non-Heteronormative Society (they're mostly fantasy, but there's also non-fantasy series, and fantasy series where the "regular world" is also non-heteronormative).

There's just... so much out there. Trying to limit queer media to stories dealing with LGBT oppression or marginalization is overlooking a vast world of LGBT character/cast/relationship-centric works that don't fit that mold.

The possible implication that the only stories that are "actually queer" are those specifically dealing with oppression and suffering might have Unfortunate Implications. Yes, a lot of queer themes in media naturally stem from marginalization, but if a story focuses on, say, a bunch of queer people just living together and having relationship drama, does that not count as Queer Media because it's not about homophobia first and foremost?

I also really don't like the idea that works should be cut if they would be the same with cishet characters in their place, if only because some people miss the extra subtext that a character being queer adds to a story.

Like, for example, Tuca & Bertie has an episode where a bi woman tries to figure out if her new friend is joking around with her or flirting with her, and that situation is possible with straight couples but definitely gains extra subtext in the context of sapphic women, IMO.

Hell, is T+B even enough to be Queer Media? It's not only about being gay, but one of the two main characters is a bi women who has a prominent arc in Season 2 exploring her relationship with a woman — and it's not really Queer Romance as her girlfriend turns out to be a jerk (for reasons not explicitly related to gender). It has a strong LGBT Fanbase as a result of this too.

Well, if we want a possibly more objective criteria to define "Queerness" for this trope...

There's the other three Works by Subject: Other social demographics:

...

So there's a Prominence criteria... And autism is the only other one which has Ambiguity...

Translate this from autism to queer?

Which would be... This?

- Ah. Good point! The word in does seem important, yes!

Edited by Malady on Aug 30th 2021 at 9:05:14 AM

I have to caution against treating inclusion on an index as a something works "deserve". Once indices or tropes start being treated as badges of honor, they decay pretty much instantly. Being Queer Media isn't good, a work not qualifying under whatever definition we come up with is not a slight against the work. And as for the character's orientation inherently adding something, that's true of any aspect of a character. There are a lot of times when a character's race adds subtext or meaning, but that doesn't make the storyu about race or mean that every moving staring, say, a black person, belongs on a list of "African American Media".

I think the difference with those lies in the names. "Deafness in Media", not "Deaf Media", so it's openly just a list of media containing deaf characters. Queer Media is treated like it's a genre, with the works themselves being "queer". At this point I'm starting to wonder if we shouldn't do the same here, stop pretending it's an actual category and just say "here's a list of works with queer characters" under a name that indicates that.

Edited by TheMountainKing on Aug 30th 2021 at 11:55:31 AM

Queerness In Media is probably a good rename idea, with Malady's mentioned conditions included. I'm sure even offsite there's debate over "Queer Media" as a genre and this will remove that ambiguity.

I think my initial list was kind of rigid, maybe it should've been just "this is what Queer Media usually contains" as opposed to "this is criteria that a work NEEDS to have to be listed here."

So basically LGBT Representation in Media. I'm not opposed to it all, I would like to keep Queer Media to see if we could fix it but I'm not sure at this point it can. The only issue I have with what was suggest is that it's going to be a long index, but African-American Media is also pretty long so...yeah.

Edited by MegaJ on Aug 30th 2021 at 11:35:39 AM

Bump. As I said before, Non-Heteronormative Society settings should go into Queer Media.

I agree with the concept of making this a Queerness in Media / LGBT Representation in Media Index.

I also agree with the concept of putting Non-Heteronormative Society works in this index. Even if a queer character wouldn't be the main character (almost no example of which comes to mind), they are bound to focus on some queer character just by the setting. Unless of course, they're including a setting like that which is only mentioned in the story, which is possible, I suppose.

So, we a okay with making this literally a list of every work of fiction that contains a queer character? I'm worried that as an index that doesn't really work. It's not a grouping by genre or medium or even subject matter, it's just one very specific thing they all have. I know there are other indexes that do the same thing, but I'm not sure those should exist. Like, African-American Media just seems to be a list of works with black main characters, which feels really weird to me.

This would be for works that prominently feature queer characters where their identity is relevant to the plot, either contextually or strongly-subtextually.

I don't see a problem with listing works that focus on certain experiences. Defining the scope of "queer media" is often difficult to define outside this wiki too.

Edited by mightymewtron on Sep 11th 2021 at 11:03:22 AM

What people are discussing now is dropping all those requirements and juts making it a list of works with queer characters, and dropping the name "Queer Media". I take you aren't in favor that?

Edited by TheMountainKing on Sep 11th 2021 at 11:16:57 AM