Removing complaining in Star Wars subpages

Here is what I propose for Idiot Plot concerning TLJ:

• Higher-ups in both the Resistance and the First Order repeatedly make stupid and self-sabotaging decisions that lead to major military drawbacks or casualties that could've been easily avoided.
  • Admiral Leia demotes Poe Dameron after he launches an attack against the dreadnought, blaming him for being reckless and causing massive losses, including every bomber the Resistance had. On closer examination, this logic makes very little sense. Ultimately, the responsibility for the military operation's success or failure lays on the shoulders of the commanding officer, i.e. Leia herself, who had to approve the battle plans and had the power to give bombers direct orders to stand down and retreat. Also, Poe was not responsible for how poorly bombers performed, as they were stupidly piloted in very close formation, allowing the First Order to utilize chain explosions. Finally, as Admiral Akbar notes , the dreadnought had all the power it needed to destroy whatever forces the Resistance had and there was no other course of action but to deal with it, which is precisely what Poe did.
  • After being put in a trap with diminished forces, Leia and Holdo decide to evacuate the main cruiser to a secret rebel base. This master plan involves taking the four ships the Resistance had left, limping away in a Stern Chase, burning out the last of their fuel to limp to a base holding little more than a bunch of rusted, antiquated, salt-corroded equipment to hold a Last Stand, knowing that the First Order can track them. All this being a gamble based on hope that unspecified allies would come in to save them. This does not end well.
  • The most common criticism of the Resistance's leadership is that Holdo and Leia decide to keep the plan or even existence of any plan secret from the crew for no reason whatsoever. This brings everyone on ship into near panic mode, making them justified in thinking that Admirals are incompetent or worse, forcing the most active ones like Poe and Finn to take matters in their own hands in order to save people from certain doom. Not to mention that initially Poe is quite diplomatic, asking Holdo on what exactly she is doing only for her to needlessly antagonize him, seemingly out of personal spite. It is not surprising that the whole thing ends up in mutiny, infighting and pointless adventure of Finn and Rose.
  • The First Order is not performing much better. During dreadnought fight General Hux does not utilize fighter screens until it is way too late and orders main artillery to fire at the evacuated Resistance base instead of attacking the fleet. When the First Order lets the fleet to move away, initiating space chase, it does not even try to use its resources to jump some forces ahead of the Resistance or to use TIE fighters against unguarded ships.
• Individual characters also add their own stupid decisions into the mix.
  • Finn and Rose park their ship on the beach outside Canto Bight, and don't move it when told it's illegal to park there, making it the only reason for authorities to be alerted and their mission to fail.
  • Rey expects Kylo Ren to rejoin the light side despite the fact that not once in their entire subplot has he expressed any desire to do anything remotely in that direction, not even to express regret or contrition for his actions in The Force Awakens , including the murder of his father. This poor judgement of character results in her being captured by Kylo and Snoke.
  • Snoke continually mistreats and belittles Kylo, while being aware of his conflicting loyalty and feelings for Rey. Then he brutally tortures her in front of Kylo, while there is an operational lightsaber placed right next to his side.
  • Rose rams Finn's speeder before he can ram himself into the Siege Cannon. She did this because of a one-sided romantic infatuation with him but never considered that by ramming him, there was a chance for both of them to be killed rather than just one of them as it would be if Finn successfully rammed the Siege Cannon. Her rationale that it is more important to save those you love than to destroy the enemy is nonsensical as that was exactly what Finn was trying to do. The fact that we get to see the Siege Cannon firing when she does her speech really highlights the absurd nature of her actions.
  • Kylo confronts what he thinks is Luke on Crait but does not notice anything wrong after "Luke" was completely un-phased by having every single walker firing on him. Kylo also should have noticed that Luke hasn't aged a day since the time these two characters have met years ago, and is using the lightsaber he just saw being destroyed in Snoke's throne room.

I'm side-eyeing this for two reasons...

1. The page this would go on, YMMV.The Last Jedi, is locked in part because of stuff like this. A lot of what you've written boils down to Complaining About Shows You Don't Like— written in such a complainy way that even legitimate critiques are missed in a sea of calling them "stupid". Others are more like "that's the point". For instance—we're intended to feel that Rey's hope clouded her judgment and she was trying to repeat Luke's success with his father. Kylo not noticing Luke wasn't really there is intentionally showing he's losing his shit so hard he isn't thinking. We're intended to notice those clues that Kylo misses (whether on first viewing or in hindsight). Those aren't about lack of intelligence, but about emotion clouding it.

2. You have zero edit and posting history, yet you come to the proper thread for this topic with lengthy, correctly-formatted complaints as if you already have experience on this site. That makes me suspicious.

Moreover, "marmelada" is how Brazilians call a fixed fight in combat sports. Maybe in this case it makes even more sense...

Thanks for the warm welcome, I guess. Feel free to use or not use the suggestion.

~Marmelado, for what it's worth, Star Wars has become a topic that's sparked enough negativity to warrant a thread dedicated to keeping negativity out. So a post that, at first glance, runs contrary to that stated purpose raises a red flag by itself.

This negativity has, I'm almost certain but for checking, gotten more than one Troper suspended, and it's not uncommon for suspended tropers to try and evade that ban by creating a new account. These ban evaders, as a general rule, are generally lacking in subtlety and/or self-awareness and often out themselves by doing exactly what got them in trouble in the first place.

Assuming you meant your post in good faith then please understand that, as noted in the reply to your initial post, these things combined, justifiably or not, to raise red flags in more than one person. I, myself, would assume evader before legitimate new participant in a situation like this. The odds are just in favor of it.

If that truly is not the case for you, and the more suspicious among us jumped the gun, I'm sure we'd all be willing to try to work out the issue with the entries and see if we can make them work or not.

Edited by sgamer82 on Apr 23rd 2020 at 1:14:29 PM

Sure, I get the idea, although I am not sure why there is all the drama surrounding Star Wars? Like you are at war or something.

Anyway, I'd prefer to focus on merits of the proposal itself. What I did is that I took already existing criticisms and tried to steelman them from a logical perspective, trimming it down. Also cutting off those that may be considered stupid in meta way, keeping only criticisms that are targeting character decisions in story itself. So I ended up with few that I couldn't defend in any way.

I don't know if things started earlier, but I remember The Last Jedi causing a lot of problems on the forums. There were three Star Wars threads in the Film subforum at the time, and two of them had to be locked because people were complaining a lot and not arguing in good faith.

Complaining about works is a major problem on the site as a whole and not limited to just Star Wars, but talks about Star Wars did get into pretty hostile territory.

Not technically an edit war on Star Wars – Kylo Ren since it's different tropers every time, but A Nazi by Any Other Name has been deleted twice now, most recently today. Not sure if I should ATT or forum this for the trope, or just deal with it here?

Example text:

* A Nazi by Any Other Name: Par for the course for anything related to the Empire, but Kylo takes it a bit further, and in a more subtle manner. Kylo's zealous worship of Vader, even so far as keeping his melted helmet as a "relic", speaks volumes of his character as an allusion to the Thule Society, and Heinrich Himmler's own veneration of a twisted past parallels Kylo's idealistic personal portrayal of Vader. Kylo practically prays to Vader's remains for guidance as one would pray to a religious relic. His reverence of Vader and dismissal of the facts about his life that do not fit Kylo's narrative can also be compared to the reverence modern far-right groups such as Stormfront have for Hitler. His helmet◊ looks similar to the Stalhelm helmet◊, too.

Edit history:

• Carried over to this page from Star Wars – The First Order where it was first added by emillang1000 on 2015-12-22
• Deleted by Bensolosrey on 2020-01-02 — reason: "Incorrect and offensive characterization"
• Re-added by Forenperser on 2020-01-14 — reason: "Restoring per ATT" (They didn't link it but probably this one)
• Deleted by ~Idumean Patriot today — reason: "Shoehorning. A Nazi by Any Other Name refers to villains who politically reference the Nazi ideology. Kylo Ren is just a standard fantasy villain, with the addition that he has a lot of respect for his deceased predecessor. At most, his generic bad guy helmet could possibly be considered Putting on the Reich."

Looks like this has been a problem on Film.The Rise Of Skywalker too, with a small edit war and involving one of the same tropers.

• Added by WELCOME_BRIGADOR on 2019-12-26 — (no edit reason)

• Deleted by Idumean Patriot on 2019-12-28 — reason: "There's actually nothing especially Nazi-like about the villains in this movie except maybe the uniforms, and that's a different trope."

• Re-added by WELCOME_BRIGADOR on 2019-12-30 — reason: ""Final Order" is a direct reference to the Nazi's "Final Solution"."

• (appeared as if deleted/re-added by St Fan but they were just reorganizing)

Edited by ImmiThrax on Apr 28th 2020 at 11:05:58 AM

JJJ Abrams compared the First Order to surviving Nazis escaping to Argentina and coming back with a vengeance.

And quite honestly, Sheev doesn't need a Hitler mustache to get the point across.

So why downplay Kylo Ren's real life connections to real villains?

Edited by Shadao on Apr 28th 2020 at 6:40:58 AM

I haven't figured out what to do what these notes yet troping-wise, but my notes about Kylo Ren as Supreme Leader and the First Order under his "leadership" really point to A Nazi by Any Other Name even more than in the films, IMO:

I haven't put a very great deal of thought into this, but just looking at the trope page, A Nazi by Any Other Name is supposed to reference villains with Nazi-like ideologies. The trope for villains who simply dress kind of like Nazis is Putting on the Reich.

In the Disney SW films, the First Order is clearly not Nazis, given that (unlike the Empire, who were British Nazis) they are multicultural and feminist. They have black female admirals and even female black mooks in their military. No hints of racialism or nationalism, at least not in the movies. (I don't read comics etc, so I can't comment on those.) They are totalitarian and wear uniforms and stuff, but if that's all that's needed to be A Nazi by Any Other Name, the Soviet Union in real life would also qualify, which looks sort of weird.

As for Kylo Ren specifically, none of the things listed on his page to justify the trope example was really relevant. His devotion to a dead predecessor is not specifically Nazi-like, calling him Heinrich Himmler because of that is frankly absurd. It's just a case of Even Evil Has Loved Ones. (By the same logic, Luke Skywalker would be a Nazi in the original movies because he idolizes Anakin Skywalker and the Jedi legacy.) Kylo also never brings up any Nazi-ish talking points in the movies, quite the opposite in fact. "Let the past burn" is something a Nazi would never say, given how that whole ideology is based on restoring their idea of a past golden age. Wearing a maybe vaguely Nazi-like helmet is Putting on the Reich at most.

I'm absolutely not looking to start a fight with anyone, I just thought the example on the character page was an obvious case of trope abuse. If someone else feels differently, I'll of course listen to what he might have to say.

Thank you so much for coming to discuss!

I can appreciate the points for and against this one. There are clear out-of-universe statements about the Nazi imagery and ideology that influenced the development First Order (though that's out-of-universe and has to be apparent in-universe). In-universe, they've got the imagery, plus they're centralist, fascist. They're racially and gender diverse unlike the original trilogy (but not species-diverse)— and not to the point of feminist, but in comparison to the Empire. Hux is much more obviously "yeah that's a space Nazi" with his speech. I don't know if A Nazi by Any Other Name is flexible for what amounts to A Neo Nazi By Any Other Name instead?

There have been problems before with other people adding/removing examples for Kylo that paint him in an unflattering light, including this specific trope, so I'm very glad to hear this time it's a concern about possible trope misuse like your edit reason said.

It might be that A Nazi by Any Other Name needs some more clarity or has a decay problem?

You're welcome. Thank you in turn for the friendly PM inviting me here.

I'd actually go so far as to say even Hux is more Putting on the Reich than A Nazi by Any Other Name. His speech in the first movie very obviously draws on visual tropes associated with the Nazis, but what he says doesn't really engage with Nazism the ideology. There's no talk about race, or the organic community, or anti-capitalism or any other major Nazi talking point. Just generic bad guy ranting about how all enemies will be crushed and Freedom replaced with Order. Addressing orcs or evil knights instead of space soldiers, and a little less frothing at the mouth, it could as well have been Sauron or Saruman speaking.

I agree Hux is far more obviously meant to resemble Nazis than Kylo Ren is, though.

I'm not really into the Kylo Ren fandom, but from what little I have seen of it online, I understand that there are controversies about the character. So while I didn't think of that when I made my edit, in retrospect I guess I can understand why people were suspicious of it. The Disney trilogy in general seems to draw in all sorts of controversy, from all sorts of people.

A Nazi by Any Other Name could probably use some trimming and tightening in general, though as for me that's sort of a bigger issue than I feel like getting into ATM.

Edited by IdumeanPatriot on Apr 29th 2020 at 3:34:31 AM

Honestly, I see no evidence of Kylo or Hux being anything remotely close to Nazis. They are firmly authoritarian and militarist but those are very broad categories that can include all sort of regimes from Rome to Atilla to absolutist monarchies to Mao's China to whatever you can name. Neither of them show any supremacist leanings which are the defining trait of Nazi ideology.

So this appeared on YMMV.Star Wars:

• Designated Hero: Despite being a Jedi master and the second highest ranking member of the Jedi order, Mace Windu tends to embody the worst aspects of Jedi. In Attack of the Clones, he beheads Jango Fett instead of disarming him and his face afterwards seem to suggest he doesn't care that Jango was a person (though in his defence, he was defending himself), and in The Clone Wars he doesn't apologize or try to explain himself to Boba Fett (and by that point, he knew that Boba saw him behead Jango), instead basically telling him to get over it. He is also incredibly callous when dealing with Ahsoka, being that he is the one leading in the vote for her excommunication and then not apologizing to her when she is revealed to be innocent, instead saying it was the will of the Force. Lastly, in Revenge of the Sith, he is distrusting and callous to Anikin, openly talking down to him in front of the council, denying him privileges, and telling Obi-Wan and Yoda that he doesn't trust him, while at the same time giving him orders to spy on someone he viewed as a close friend for many years. This behavior makes Mace come off as an emotionless manipulative jerk who cares little about the feelings of other rather than an altruist keeper of the peace.

This entry really feels like its stretching to demonize Windu in every way possible. I mean, he's is kind of a dick at times, but faulting him for killing a bounty hunter who was trying to kill him and other Jedi is not a good argument.

I would consider cutting it as potential misuse.

So, while we know there's a Hindsight cleanup thread, I think the Harsher in Hindsight, Hilarious in Hindsight and Heartwarming in Hindsight entries on the Star Wars pages might need to be looked at and cleaned up for potential misuse.

Edited by gjjones on May 7th 2020 at 5:32:13 AM

I don't know, I feel a case could be made for Hero with an F in Good; Windu means well, but he sucks at acting like a Jedi should.

Aside from Putting on the Reich for aesthetics, and given the trivia about Nazi inspirations, I'm wondering what the right tropes are for ol' Hux and Kylo if A Nazi by Any Other Name gets retroped to something else? There's something to be said about Kylo's style of, uh, "leadership" but I'm not politically savvy enough to know what fits real world or trope world.

As for Mace... A lot of people love to hate on Jedi, and a lot of Jedi haters love to hate on Yoda and Mace in particular. Especially Mace. His final TCW appearance kicked that up, too, and totally ignores all the heroics beforehand like being willing to sacrifice himself for the clones, trying to appeal to the droids, actually complimenting Anakin, etc.. I'm good with any kind of edit or deletion to tone that down.

Mace is more of an anti-hero with flaws, deliberate flaws. He's not someone that the story praises in spite of his flaws.

The fans who see him as a Designated Hero seems to confuse it with Ron the Death Eater.

For Kylo Ren's abusive leadership style in general, Bad Boss would seem to fit. Aesthetically and thematically, I'd say he's probably closest to a Darth Vader Clone or regular Evil Overlord.

Well, isn't he actively aiming for Darth Vader Clone the whole time?

TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodCharacter.Star Wars has a lot of complaining, not only in the ST folder but also the PT and OT, with "many feeling ROTJ is a weak climax" because of Leia and Han's land battle—ignoring that was the reason Lando was able to destroy the Death Star II.

Edited by lalalei2001 on May 13th 2020 at 3:12:07 AM

Narm alert! Unnerving_Posterior and hittheassassin made questionable additions to Narm.Star Wars. Both concern instances that, iirc, this thread previously cut from that page.

I hate to say it, but it may be time to permalock Narm.Star Wars.

Taking a better look at them for myself, the "I killed them all" rant is OK to keep, but I don't know if "hello there" is meant to be a serious moment in the sense of Narm.

Kenobi is the master of trolling. He's the guy who made a false surrender to a Separatist General and has the galls to ask for drinks to settle a surrender negotiation.