The New Trope Problem

There's been an issue with New Tropes lately. And no, this isn't another post where I do nothing but complain about the TLP. These tropes make it out of the TLP properly and get launched with the proper hat count and all...

...Only to never actually get noticed by the rest of the wiki community and, instead, are practically doomed to sit around collecting dust in the shadows simply because they're too new to get recognized and too easily hidden by any other trope that just so happened to be launched on the same day. These tropes are solid tropes as good as the TLP can make 'em, but just because they're relatively new, they get forgotten as soon as another trope gets launched, with a very slow growth afterwards. Even the ones that get lucky enough to have an "editing boom" in their first few hours will no doubt be left behind as soon as more new tropes get the spotlight. The use and attention a trope gets shouldn't be solely based on when they happened to be launched, but it's been happening more and more and it's a problem I can't just ignore.

On Outdated Pages, I pointed out that the plan to update the Wick page was still falling into the trap of giving every trope the same standards, which only resulted in new tropes being labeled "starving" or only "standing", simply due to the fact that they'd only been launched for a few months and haven't gotten a lot of new crosswicking besides their sponsor doing so on the first day. From there, the solution was to relax the standards for the newer tropes, acknowledging that tropes shouldn't be punished just because they haven't gotten noticed yet...

But, that's an issue that wouldn't have to happen if new tropes didn't just get ignored and forgotten about as soon as another new trope launches.

See, I actually go out of my way to try and launch a trope when I think it'll be in the spotlight long enough to get new edits, and it's always bummed me out when my plan is foiled and another trope is launched soon after, not because I want my trope to be on the front page forever, but because that new trope will be the one getting the edits, allowing it to be more recognized than mine. And launching tropes shouldn't feel like a competition for the attention of the wiki!

So can we talk about this? I'm not even sure if there's any ways we can combat this problem, but I wanted to start a dialogue and see if anyone has any ideas— the best I've seen so far is to have more than one new trope on the front page at a time, but that won't fully fix the issue. Because it is a problem, and I honestly consider the few tropes of mine that have had a decent bit of growth since their launch to be abnormally lucky, which isn't something I should have to be worried about.

But...yeah. New tropes get almost none of the recognition they should simply because they're too new to make an impression, and because of this, they're unlikely to actually be used when people are making pages, because these people are unlikely to know these newer tropes exist. It perpetuates a cycle of the major tropes getting an excessive amount of wicks, and the new tropes being lucky if they can break 70+ wicks within a year...

Edited by WarJay77 on Dec 22nd 2019 at 1:42:22 PM

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

I was thinking about maybe pushing for new tropes to try for examples in works that are already Trope Overdosed and therefore likely Watched by Tropers.

As to try and get crosswicks, and therefore edits, history, then eyes, on these new tropes...

But, and this feels unlikely to be true... Might we have collected basically all the tropes contained in Trope Overdosed works, and any new tropes are the more uncommon ones??

Edited by Malady on Dec 22nd 2019 at 11:09:05 AM

Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576

I think new tropes aren't popular because they're fairly specific or uncommon.

Consider the top three Overdosed Tropes and their wicks (all of them are fairly old):

• Big Bad: 50K+. The ultimate villain of the story, who's causing the problem the heroes must solve.
• Shout-Out: 45K+. A reference to a person or another work.
• Lampshade Hanging: 33K+. Pointing out something within the story, to strengthen the audience's Willing Suspension of Disbelief.

I know they're ultra-popular and it would be unfair to compare them to new tropes, but they are old and fairly common. I think they sound like what you could easily see in a story. Let's compare that to three of my launched tropes:

• LOL, 69: 91. 69 as an inherently funny number for its Double Entendre value. It's probably the trope I value the most, and likely the most valued by the community as well. But I don't feel like references to 69 are very frequent, though they're at least frequent to reach a Healthy spot on Wick. It's actually its anniversary today, haha.
• Common HTTP Status Code: 11. References to HTTP status codes, usually 403 Forbidden and 404 Not Found as they're the most well-known. Still not well-known enough to be more than Starving once a year passes. Also launched on this year's Pi Day, for some darn reason.
• Export Save: 13. Copy-pasteable super long save files in usually .txt format, successor of Password Save. It's a topic I find interesting, but ultimately niche as it's usually found in Idle PC games. Will at least be Standing after a year passes. Not launched on a special day.

I know my tropes are typically number/pattern-based. It's a thing I'm interested in, after all. But other tropes like Nature Metal and YouTuber Apology Parody don't look like they'd be more than niche, modern topics (they at least meet Standing for now). Nowadays, tropes are becoming more and more specialised which likely reduces their appearances in fiction.

Additionally, I feel like it's hard to sort through the sheer deluge of tropes and work page requirements don't need them. There are currently 28962 tropes according to this. A work needs an absolute minimum of 3. 3/28962=0.0001036, so you only need a little over 1‱ of tropes to make a work page. Of course it's good to add more, but I think that people will just pick the 3 or more easiest to use/describe/know about tropes for their work page. Even if trope is crosswicked, it's only going to gain some minor notoriety in existing works, new ones may neglect it, plus it's almost certain that not all instances will be found in TLP. A few hours on the Home Page in the Newest Trope tab help of course, but not to a major extent.

Those are my thoughts, please tell me what you think.

Edited by Piterpicher on Dec 22nd 2019 at 9:51:22 PM

Currently mostly inactive. An incremental game I tested: https://galaxy.click/play/176 (Gods of Incremental)

True, some of them are niche, but others are actually pretty common and would probably be used more if people knew they existed. Using some of my launched tropes as an example:

• Sudden Soundtrack Stop: Background music suddenly goes quiet to add emphasis to a scene.
• Braving the Blizzard: Characters get stuck in a blizzard to add drama to the story.
• Starstruck Speechless: A character has trouble speaking when they meet an idol.

I don't think any of these (or most of the other many, many tropes I've launched) are all that uncommon, but they haven't gotten a lot of growth. Sure, some of my tropes (Like Revealing Continuity Lapse) are a bit more niche, but most of the ones I launch are ones I can confidently say aren't uncommon tropes.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

- For those tropes, those sound sorta plot-ish or event-ish or something... To add them, you need a good memory for what happens in a work...

Edited by Malady on Dec 22nd 2019 at 1:13:24 AM

Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576

True, most of what I've launched are plot-tropes, though I find it a bit odd that you're implying people who are making new pages for works don't remember what happened in the work very well. (My concern is less these tropes being added to pre-existing pages and moreso with them being added to new pages, which seems to almost never happen unless I'm the one making the page).

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

- Yeah, I was talking about adding them to existing pages.

Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576

Anyway, yeah, it is entirely possible this is a problem with newer tropes being slightly too niche, but I still believe a good portion of them aren't niche or uncommon at all, and only have a stunted growth because people don't know they exist. I mean...that's definitely a contributing factor. And that's the main thing I'm worried about. Wiki Magic only works if people know the thing exists in the first place, and even with tons of crosswicking, a lot of drafts slip under the radar.

Edited by WarJay77 on Dec 22nd 2019 at 5:40:10 AM

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Your tropes seem to be doing pretty well to me (all of them are on Healthy and received about 30 edits each). It's mine that are doing mediocrely. And I really wouldn't describe yours as niche. Perhaps you're a better troper than me in terms of charisma, or perhaps people are just not interested in boring old numbers. Additionally, there are still tropes which I probably wouldn't see as rare launched recently (Prison Changes People, Our Nymphs Are Prettier, Plain Palate are almost all Healthy, heck, Girls vs. Boys Plot is Renowned). Maybe the problem is with me, or with the aforementioned fact there are now 28963 tropes to use and people can't remember them all? I don't know, I don't use TLP all the time.

Edited by Piterpicher on Dec 22nd 2019 at 12:08:51 PM

Currently mostly inactive. An incremental game I tested: https://galaxy.click/play/176 (Gods of Incremental)

Nah, that's only a handful, check my profile for a full list. Most of them only have a few wicks.

But either way, my concern is that they stagnate and don't grow much after being launched, not that the wick count is low.

Edited by WarJay77 on Dec 22nd 2019 at 6:11:08 AM

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Well, that changes things completely. I was checking your whole profile list and comparing tropes by number of wicks and edits (reached Bully Turned Buddy, all of them were Healthy, one of them was almost Renowned), but then decided to stop. I've instead decided to check when your tropes stopped being edited:

• Alone Among Families has last been edited in July
• Bloodsucking Bats in February
• Boss's Unfavorite Employee in September
• Challenging the Bully in August
• Covering for the Noise in April
• Rotten Robotic Replacement in April
• Sent Into Hiding in July
• Supporting the Monster Loved One in July

Quite a few of your tropes were edited just a few days or weeks ago, though I suppose you have a point with the existence of stagnation.

Edited by Piterpicher on Dec 22nd 2019 at 12:27:31 PM

Currently mostly inactive. An incremental game I tested: https://galaxy.click/play/176 (Gods of Incremental)

The same thing occurs with work pages. The best solutions are just to get more tropers willing to edit and add Cross Wicking for their favourite works.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

At least the problem of new tropes not being on the main page long enough could be fixed by showing more than one

PSA: a cat is not a dog

To be fair, Work Pages are a different beast. The people who make them are the ones with interest in them, and there's only a finite amount of tropes for each. At some point, they stop growing. It's just sort of natural with how these pages work. But Tropes can grow at a much more dynamic pace, because they can be used anywhere and the only criteria for adding one to a page (if it's indeed in the story) is that the person knows the trope exists. Work Pages falling into obscurity is unfortunate but inevitable, but the same does not have to be said for Tropes.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

I think you're wrong, because "the only criteria for adding one to a page (if it's indeed in the story) is that the person knows the trope exists" applies to the work pages, too. Essentially the same criteria; people must know the work and the trope. That's why I said we need a broader base of editors, because if everyone only knows 1% of the wiki, we need more people to know more examples, and they need to be Cross Wicking all examples. This solution helps both types of pages.

---

The number of works that use a trope is proportional to the popularity of that trope. The number of tropes used by a work is proportional to the length of that work. This is where the two types of pages diverge in their mirror identity, because an obscure work can be long, and a popular trope is (usually) short.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

I fear what will happen on January 1st. Anything launched early that day can brag it's the first trope of the decade.

I agree new pages don't get enough attention. For example, let's use my most recent trope. Finger Extinguisher has a flat 20 wicks, some of which are just there for the sake of... being there.

20 wicks is considered healthy for newly launched tropes according to Wick, so I wouldn't worry that much. As for anything launching on January 1st, I intend to launch Video Games of the 2020s that day (in my time zone, of course), and unless the situation for Films of the 2020s or Western Animation of the 2020s changes, it may indeed be the first index of the decade.

Edited by Piterpicher on Dec 28th 2019 at 7:19:24 PM

Currently mostly inactive. An incremental game I tested: https://galaxy.click/play/176 (Gods of Incremental)

Yes, 20 wicks is good, but without the insignificant ones there would probably only be around ten.

Like I said though, even if the trope is launched in a very healthy state, my concern is that they don't grow much afterwards. They don't get that Wiki Magic, since the wiki doesn't know they exist. (And while yes this applies to work pages too, I still think they're a different case...)

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

What I was trying to get at is...

... if you rely solely on indices and crosswicking, you would only have a few wicks.

Its a sad reality for new tropes although I really don't know what came be done if even the new trope spotlight isn't enough. I just crosswick a little and hope for the best.

Out of all the tropes I made over the years Boyish Short Hair is doing the best but that's because it's a common appearance trope. Fairy in a Bottle and Sent Off to Work for Relatives are 8+ years old and are stagnant even though they are fairly common tropes although I probably messed up with the latter by making it specific to relatives.

Macron's notes

Damn, maybe what we need is some way of getting these less-noticed tropes some love, regardless of how new they are...but what?

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

^^ - How common do you expect those tropes to be?

I know Fairy in a Bottle could do with more crosswicking, and Webcomic.Slightly Damned's examples are mentioned nowhere.

Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576

I don't know but I figured at least 50+ and above. I haven't really been editing the wiki lately so didn't all the examples werent wicked. And not familiar with Slightly Damned so that's why it's not there.

Macron's notes

Then we need to increase the number of wicks that represents "healthy" because you're saying that they're not healthy.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.