During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Lizzid people!
One more song candidate for now (might have one for October, but unsure).
What is the work?
The Capital Lights is a Christian pop rock band originated from Tulsa, Oklahoma. The band is currently on hiatus having reunited back in 2010 after disbanding in 2009. Their band name was initially Aftereight before it was changed when they signed a contract with "Tooth & Nail Records."
Who is he?
From the album This is An Outrage!, comes the final song listed "Morris." Frank Morris was an American criminal who was sentenced to Alcatraz Prison for committing crimes such as grand larceny, armed robbery, and narcotics possession. Morris is the narrator of the eponymous song describing how he was the mastermind behind the only successful escape from Alcatraz and that the rumors of his death were greatly exaggerated.
Morris — having an IQ of 133 — gets together with Clarence and John Anglin on the escape plan. For seven months, Morris met in secret, eventually coming up with the plan of making paper-mace and placing them in his and his accomplices' beds to trick the guards into thinking that they were still in bed. He then acquires several rain coats and makeshifts a rubber raft as well as producing his own tools. On the night that they made their grand escape, Morris and the Anglin brothers get their tools and start digging tunnels. There was another man that was in on the escape plan — Allen West — but he failed to get the grate off his escape hole and was thus left behind.
While the FBI had concluded that Morris and the Anglin brothers were assumed dead due to their bodies never being found, in this interpretation, Morris and the brothers clearly survived and were still in hiding. The song ends with Morris reflecting on how his escape would go down in history.
Is he charming? Can he think on his feet?
The song presents him practically as a master criminal for having successfully escaped the Alcatraz Prison, something he himself notes was considered inescapable. With how complex the escape plan was, him thinking on his feet is self-explanatory.
Is he a bastard? Too much of one?
As I have said, he was sentenced to Alcatraz for a serious of crimes such as grand larceny; armed robbery; bank robbery; the list goes on. In the song, Morris talks about feeling some kinship with the Anglin Brothers and with Allen, he did end up abandoning him at Alcatraz when he was unable to remove the grate from his escape hole, but this wasn't because of him being a dick, but rather because time was on the essence.
Competition
Morris was the main conspirator behind the escape plan while the Anglin brothers provided the materials for it.
Conclusion
I'll leave that to you guys to decide.
Yes there Austin.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Morris
Goku Black
Morris
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Sure to Morris and I agree with Austin and 43110 that the Last Scenario EP sounds barebones
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
"The Juice is Loose."
Last Scenario EP:
Okay, I think we either leave it or another user proposes the character another time.
The Draftsman of Doom
Morris, but the other EP doesn't paint a clear enough picture for me to vote.
to Morris
to Morris
Morris
Abstain on Augustus. I'm 99% sure that he does count, but that EP is too barebones and it's been ages since I played the game so I don't remember enough details to do an EP.
If it helps, here's what I do remember:
- He was born a peasant, but managed to become a nobleman. I forget how.
- His goal in life is to obtain power, just to prove that a peasant can.
- He helped the evil princess Helga usurp the imperial throne and killed her once she outlived her usefulness and then usurped the throne himself.
- When the imperial war hero Noble Demon Felgorn confronts him over his treachery (I forget the specific thing he did that made Felgorn turn on him), Augustus submits to execution because he respects Felgorn for being a Self-Made Man and thus has earned the right to kill him. Augustus uses his last words to proclaim that he regrets nothing, because he proved that a peasant could become an emperor.
I think he counts, but I don't remember the specific details of his schemes.
Edited by lrrose on Sep 25th 2019 at 7:11:45 AM
Okay, second attempt on the Last Scenario character.
Who is he?
Augustus, the minister of the Republic. He was born a peasant, but managed to become a nobleman. His goal in life is to obtain power, just to prove that a peasant can. He sent Felgorn to decimate an army and teamed up with Helga after her father was murdered. (He had the king assassinated by Felgorn, so Helga could become a queen.) Helga became a tyranness and Augustus tricked her into drinking something. As it turns out, the something was poison that killed Helga and Augustus ended up being king, and goes as far as to mock Helga for her stupidity. With a revolution going on, Augustus allows Felgorn to kill him because Augustus proved his goal that a peasant can become king, which is what Felgorn also does. Felgorn ends up killing the army by himself, dying in the battle as well.
Smart?
Tricked Helga into trusting him, managed to become king all with what he has to work with.
Bastard?
Decimated an army using his partner Felgorn, poisoned a princess and even gave her a "The reason you suck" speach.
Too much?
He has some respect for his partner Felgorn. Also, he is not the type of a person who kills using his hands. He uses trickery or anyone else.
Feet?
He lasts longer than both Helga and the king. He also goes out with dignity while Helga is shocked/angered by being poisoned.
Charm?
He gets Felgorn and Helga to his side.
Verdict?
We might get another classy schemer for the RPG-Maker games.
Edited by Fan727 on Sep 25th 2019 at 5:45:21 AM
The Draftsman of Doom
I still think that more detail should be added.
Tricked Helga into trusting him, managed to become king all with what he has to work with.
How does he accomplish those feats, in detail?
Decimated an army using his partner Felgorn, poisoned a princess and even gave her a "The reason you suck" speach.
Describe his underhanded actions in more detail.
He has some respect for his partner Felgorn. Also, he is not the type of a person who kills using his hands. He uses trickery or anyone else.
Please use more explicit wording. Additionally, although generally resorting to trickery rather than violence may make the character a little less of a bastard, killing people indirectly does not necessarily make him less evil.
He lasts longer than both Helga and the king. He also goes out with dignity while Helga is shocked/angered by being poisoned.
How does he think on his feet? Demonstrate specific instances of his quick thinking.
He gets Felgorn and Helga to his side.
How exactly does he convince them to side with him?
BE MORE SPECIFIC. PLEASE.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
I'd still appreciate more detail in those areas, but I'm leaning yes.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Sep 25th 2019 at 10:11:20 AM
Okay, an even more detailed attempt on the Last Scenario character.
Who is he?
Augustus, the minister of the Republic. He was born a peasant, but managed to become a nobleman. His goal in life is to obtain power, just to prove that a peasant can. He sent Felgorn to decimate an army and teamed up with Helga after her father was murdered. (He had the king assassinated by Felgorn, so Helga could become a queen.) Helga became a tyranness and Augustus tricked her into drinking something. As it turns out, the something was poison that killed Helga and Augustus ended up being king, and goes as far as to mock Helga for her stupidity. With a revolution going on, Augustus allows Felgorn to kill him because Augustus proved his goal that a peasant can become king, which is what Felgorn also does. Felgorn ends up killing the army by himself, dying in the battle as well.
Smart?
Tricked Helga into trusting him, by using the latter's naive personality, managed to become king by exploiting Helga's naive personality and assassinating her.
Bastard?
Decimated an army by sending his partner Felgorn, poisoned a princess by tricking and even gave her a "The reason you suck" speach how "not wise" the move was while Helga was dying.
Too much?
He has some respect for his partner Felgorn, because both are commoners who worked themselves to the top. Also, he is not the type of a person who kills using his hands, prefering to uses trickery or other people instead.
Feet?
After the king is killed, he has Helga quickly poisoned right after a rebellion started, showing he can outsmart other people.
He survives longer than both Helga and the king. He also goes out with dignity while Helga is shocked/angered by being poisoned.
Charm?
He gets Felgorn and Helga to his side using the fact that both are commoners who worked hard for the place for the former and the naive personality of the latter.
Verdict?
We might get another classy schemer for the RPG-Maker games.
Edited by Fan727 on Sep 25th 2019 at 7:11:29 AM
Augustus
So I've been checking an old entry I made for Magnificent Bastard using the Grammarly system for proof reading, and it notice some minor mistakes, I corrected the entry as follow (with a few adjustments to some of the words):
- The Batman: Out of all the villains in Batman's Rogues Gallery, Professor Hugo Strange is perhaps the most dangerous of them all. Fascinated by the Batman's crusade against crime, Hugo Strange studies on the minds of criminals apprehended by Batman as a means to understand the Dark Knight himself. Using his criminal studies as his foundation, Strange launches various schemes to psychologically destroy Batman such as creating the hyper-intelligent criminal AI known as D.A.V.E., manipulating Batman to spread a fear toxin across Gotham, and capturing members of the Justice League for the Joining. He has come close to victory many times if not for the last-minute gambits on Batman's part; and he takes his losses in stride, biding his time for the next opportunity to arrive. Strange respects Batman's intelligence, citing him to be the most dangerous member of the Justice League, while the Batman begrudgingly respects Strange as a brilliant psychiatrist who can mess with people's heads. Armed with nothing more than his brilliant intellect and morbid curiosity in a world of combat-prone villains, Hugo Strange certainly earns the title of "Gotham's Ultimate Criminal Mastermind."
It's relatively minor, but considering that the page is locked, I wanted to bring it up here.
Oh and to Morris and Augustus.
Edited by Shadao on Sep 25th 2019 at 8:39:40 AM
Was DSOD Kaiba ever looked at? Yu-Gi-Oh! Duel Links added him as a character and one of his quotes is "You're simply a pawn in my plan." which got me thinking about this topic again XD
Edited by lalalei2001 on Sep 26th 2019 at 1:59:02 AM
The Protomen enhanced my life.
As I said earlier, Augustus
I'd like to propose Savathun from the Destiny series.
- Savathun, the Trickster, is one of the three Gods of the Hive. During the earliest days of the Hive, Savathun helped to mastermind the Tithes, a system where the Hive Gods draw power from any and all deaths caused in their names. After Oryx's death, Savathun took control over the remnants of her fallen brother's Hive and Taken armies, slowly consolidating her power throughout the course of the Red War. After the death of Dominous Ghaul, Savathun steps out of the shadows with the goal of creating what she calls an "Infinite Death Loop", an eternal cycle of death that she could endlessly Tithe. To this end, she forges an alliance with the Ahamkara Riven and manipulates Uldren Sov into opening the way to the Awoken's Dreaming City, an act that ends up robbing the Vanguard of one of its key members. Although Uldren and Riven are both slain by the Young Wolf, Savathun gains access to the Dreaming City and launches a massive siege, intending to use the City to invade the pocket realm where the majority of the Awoken reside. Despite a string of victories over her, Savathun ultimately pulls the rug out from under the Guardians by revealing that she has used the temporal laws of the City in order to create a Stable Time Loop where the three week siege, which claimed countless lives on both sides, would repeat infinitely, and the only way to break it would be to allow her to invade and slaughter the Awoken's pocket realm, leaving the Guardians in a no win scenario. Always multiple steps ahead of her foes, Savathun has proven herself to be among the most cunning and intelligent of the Darkness's agents.
Edited by SomeNewGuy on Sep 26th 2019 at 6:04:24 AM
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
I think I recall we put Savathun on wait and see list because she hadn't done much but hmmmmm...
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Mostly due to Lrrose's backing I'll say yeah to Augustus but we axed Savathun as she hadn't made an appearance in the game and as such failed to showcase charm. Has that changed?
Dark Side of Dimensions Kaiba was briefly brought up in a discussion about whether or not main series Kaiba countered (main series one got shut down), but I don't think there was any conclusion on the DSOD version.
Goku Black
Augustus
Gonna have to concur with Austin here.