During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Amaterasu
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Amaterasu.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Amaterasu
The Draftsman of Doom
Amaterasu
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Rob
Hey guys I’ve got another potential candidate from the movie Bernie, so let’s talk about that for the moment.
What’s The Work?
Bernie is a 2011 Black Comedy film that’s based on the true of Bernie Tiede. Basically the premise revolves around Nice Guy Bernie Tiede becoming Jerkass Marjorie "Marge" Nugent’s companion. However Marjorie’s abuse on Bernie causes him to snap kill her where her body is found nine months later in a freezer, where Bernie would be tried in court for her murder and the person prosecuting Bernie is Danny Buck Davidson.
Who Is He? What Has He Done?
Danny Buck is the District Attorney of Carthage Texas where he personally observes the people throughout Carthage to see if they have any suspicious behavior, and if he believes that they are guilty of committing crimes, he will go after them with relentlessness until he gets a guilty verdict from them, using unorthodox means to do so. Regardless, Danny always succeeds in getting a verdict charge
One of Danny’s schemes involves trying to arrest a group of five people who are said to be working together to steal cars throughout Carthage where he sets up a contest where the last person who has their hand on the car gets a free car. Danny waits until the last five people are left still with their hands on the car where he then proceeds to arrest the five people and successfully gets all five of them guilty for stealing cars.
Upon learning that Marjorie has been murdered and Bernie confesses that he killed her, Danny commits himself to prosecuting Bernie and charge him with first degree murder. However Danny faces the obstacle that everyone in Carthage loved Bernie, the murderer, while everyone hated Marjorie, the victim.
This doesn’t deterred Danny’s efforts in prosecuting Bernie, and simply changes tactic, by having Bernie’s murder trial be held in a different town San Augustine with an indifferent and uninterested jury while Danny paints Bernie as a cold-blooded sociopath who killed Marjorie for her money. In end, Danny’s efforts paid off as Bernie is found guilty of murder in the first degree and sentenced to life in prison while Danny gets yet another win under his belt.
Is He Intelligent? Is He Charismatic?
As a district attorney, Danny is quite intelligent having come up with various unscrupulous schemes to find and arrest criminals while changing tactic whenever he’s facing an obstacle. As for charisma, Danny is played by Matthew freaking McConaughey who uses his charisma to convince the jury to declare Bernie. It is through these means that Danny successfully convicts someone who was beloved by all for murdering someone everyone despises which is pretty impressive.
What’s The Competition Like?
Danny clears the competition by far being the most cunning character in the whole movie. There’s Bernie whose very charming that everyone loves but he’s just a Nice Guy whose only crime was killing one person after snapping from her constant abuse. Marjorie doesn’t come remotely close to this trope because see’s such an abusive, bigoted, hateful, and all around horrible person with zero charm or likability.
Is He a Bastard? Is He Too Much of a Bastard?
So Danny is an unscrupulous attorney using questionable means to prosecute people based on his assumption that they are criminal and is determined to charge Bernie for first degree murder despite knowing that Bernie is a Nice Guy and the victim was a terrible person so Danny can have another win under his belt. So yeah Danny’s a bastard.
That said Danny isn’t too much of a bastard not to count. He doesn’t commit any deplorable crimes, is not abusive like Marjorie, and makes a good point that while Bernie is beloved by Carthage while his victim was universally despised, it doesn’t excuse Bernie for committing murder. Basically from Danny’s point of view he’s is just doing his job even if he uses unscrupulous mean to do so.
Final Verdict?
I will leave it to you guys.
Edited by G-Editor on Aug 25th 2019 at 5:20:40 AM
to Danny
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Sure to Danny Buck.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Goku Black
amaetsru and Danny
The Draftsman of Doom
Yee... gimme a bit and I'll update pending.
Wild Child
Danny.
Alright, here's my first attempt at a proposal here, coming from one of Dreamworks Animations earliest films, as well as one of their only 2d animated films....
What's the Work?
Sinbad: Legend of the Seven Seas is a 2003 animated re-imagining of the famous Sinbad stories. The film follows the titular character as he embarks on a quest to recover the lost Book of Peace to save the life of his childhood friend, Prince Proteus.
And the villain standing in his way. The Goddess of Discord, Eris.
Who is Eris? What Does She Do?
The aforementioned Goddess of Discord, Eris lives for causing chaos among the mortal world wherever and whenever she can. Seeking a new opportunity to sow unrest in the kingdom of Syracuse, Eris opens up the film by sending Cetus to attack Sinbad and Proteus' ships, the latter carrying the Book of Peace. Sinbad and Proteus work together to stop the sea monster, but Sinbad ends up in Eris' clutches. The goddess offers Sinbad all the riches he desires in exchange for giving her the Book of Peace. Sinbad agrees, but upon reaching the kingdom, has a change of heart when he meets Proteus' betrothed, Marina. Eris was anticipating this, however, and steals the book herself, assuming Sinbad's appearance and planting his knife at the scene in order to incriminate him. Sinbad is framed and sentenced to death for the book's theft, but Proteus offers himself up in Sinbad's place, giving Sinbad ten days to recover the book. If not, Proteus will be executed.
Though Sinbad initially plans to simply retire to Fiji, Marina manages to convince him to make the effort to go to Tartarus, Eris' realm. Seeing this, Eris makes numerous attempts to derail their voyage, sending sirens to hypnotize the crew, nearly leading to their deaths, with the crew only surviving thanks to Marina guiding the ship to safety. Soon afterwards, Eris sends a Roc to attack the crew, which they narrowly survive as well.
Eventually, the crew reaches Tartarus, where Sinbad and Marina meet Eris. The goddess finally reveals the true reason she stole the book: she knew Proteus couldn't bear to let his friend die and would take his place, and with his execution, Syracuse would be left without an heir and would fall into chaos. Eris then proceeds to deliver a Breaking Speech towards Sinbad, accusing him of having a heart "just as black as mine" and needling him for betraying Proteus by stealing Marina's affections. Sinbad and Marina deny this, and Eris gives Sinbad the chance to prove himself, giving her word to willingly give Sinbad the book if he answers a simple question: if he doesn't get the book, will he go back to Syracuse and die in Proteus' place? Sinbad says he will, but Eris accuses him of lying and returns the two to the mortal realm.
Losing all hope of retrieving the book, a broken Sinbad admits that Eris was right about him, believing that he truly is a black-hearted liar. Nonetheless, unwilling to let his friend die, Sinbad returns just as Proteus is about to be executed, willingly taking his place. Just as he is about to be beheaded, however, Eris arrives and shatters the executioner's blade, saving him. Sinbad realizes that this was all part of Eris' test, to see if he truly was telling the truth, and he succeeded. Enraged at this turn of events, but knowing she can't go back on her word, Eris begrudgingly returns the book to Sinbad. The two exchange a few parting words before Eris leaves, using Sinbad's own words from the start of the film as she does; "I've got places to go, things to destroy, stuff to steal."
Is she charming? Intelligent?
Yes to both. Eris is a Deadpan Snarker and Faux Affably Evil, rarely raising her voice, acting flirtatious towards Sinbad, and keeping a cool aura throughout her screentime. She continuously stays one step ahead of the heroes and is able to anticipate their actions near-flawlessly, knowing Proteus would take Sinbad's place and counting on the latter not going through with retrieving the book, with only Marina's presence convincing him otherwise. The only time she's caught off-guard is at the end when Sinbad actually stays true to his word and goes back to die, and even Sinbad thought he himself was lying about that.
Is she a bastard? Too much?
Well her motivation does pretty much amount to causing chaos For the Evulz, but she is the Goddess of Discord, that's kind of her thing. She's also shown to have a bit of an ego on her, but once again, she's a literal goddess and Invincible Villain; I'm willing to give her that. Regardless, she is shown to stay true to her word at the end, giving the book back when Sinbad reveals himself to be telling the truth. And while visibly frustrated about losing, she accepts her defeat without retaliating, bowing out a Graceful Loser.
Final Verdict?
Your call.
Why so serious?
Goku Black
Eris
I quite like that film. Good keep too from memory.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Danny and Eris.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
to Eris (nice first EP Clown-Face)
Edited by G-Editor on Aug 26th 2019 at 9:44:48 AM
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Sure to Eris.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Great first EP Clown (so kinda like a second welcome to you)! Yes there!
Okay so here's my write-up for Danny.
- Bernie: Danny Buck Davidson is the District Attorney of Carthage, known for using unscrupulous methods to convict those he deems criminals; one such method involves holding a contest where the last person with their hands on a car gets it for free waiting until five people are left where Danny proceeds to arrest them for grand theft auto. When he learns that Bernhardt "Bernie" Tiede murdered Marjorie "Marge" Nugent, Danny vows to get a successful conviction on Bernie. When facing opposition with the people of Carthage, Danny arranges Bernie's murder trial at a different town with an ignorant jury while painting Bernie in a bad light; This tactic works the beloved Bernie is sentenced to life in prison for murdering someone universally despised.
Edited by G-Editor on Aug 26th 2019 at 11:08:51 PM
The Draftsman of Doom
Apologies for being this late to discuss The Amazing World of Gumball. Personally, I think that Rob doesn't count mostly because he had several mitigating factors. For one is his anger; his anger tends to play against him frequently especially when he desires to get revenge on Gumball without even thinking of the consequences in the long run. In "The Disaster," Rob gets his hands on a reality warping remote control where he of course would use that to get revenge on Gumball. When he is told not to use it for evil by the original owner, he erases him from existence, and then ruins Gumball's relationship with Penny; after Gumball unwittingly turns his parents into babies, Rob snatches the remote, fully aware that if it isn't reversed, Gumball and his sister Anais would be erased from existence. Sure, he does decide to go against killing Gumball since Gumball saved him when he fell back into the Void, but he later goes against that potential character development.
The final season of the series made it apparent that Rob was a Well-Intentioned Extremist who was trying to save Elmore from collapsing into the Void (i.e. the show's cancellation), and to do this, he tried to add realism to the show by stripping the characters of their cartoony quirks via torturing them, but in the end, they don't believe him and the show ends with Rob falling into the Void. While his sudden WIE leaning is sudden, the episode doesn't really delve into what exactly the impending danger was, so it comes off as kind of underdeveloped. The other strike against Rob is that besides his Hair-Trigger Temper, Rob also is a coward who pleads for his life and when his plan on humanizing the students of Elmore Junior High failed, he tried to high-tail it out of there.