During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Doom and Elder
Ultimate Moral Compass
Doom
And an epic to the Elder as well. Awesome movie btw, y'all should go see it.
Yes to Doom and the Elder. Great work to both!
Frau.
Zombies!Doom.
The Elder.
Since the Saints Row page is still open, and the reboot is around the corner I'm gonna go ahead and edit some pothole for a few of the entries, if no one minds.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Oh shit that's right I made a page sometime ago. Lmao I'll get that locked this week, thanks for noticing!
Woagh
to the Elder and Doom.
Gotta love Jaws!
to the masseur, Sett, Frau, Doom and the Elder.
to Doom and the Elder
@Polarphantom: I’ve seen Bullet train too (awesome action pack movie!) and I don’t really think the White Death misses the mark at the end when he suffers an intense breakdown at the end after learning that he got the wrong guy on the bus (Carver got sick so Ladybug went in his place). Are You going to EP anyone on the CM forum from Bullet Train too?
Edited by G-Editor on Aug 17th 2022 at 12:21:15 PM
Lies and Violence!
DOOOOOMM!! and the Elder.
Next of mine for League of Legends! If anyone's watched Arcane, you should know the basics for this one: the wealthy Piltover is a paradise of innovation, while its undercity of Zaun is a cesspool of pollution and poverty.
Who is Silco Sevika Renata Glasc?
The daughter of ingenious yet perhaps overly-altruistic Zaunite alchemists, Renata lacked her parents' gifts for science but made up for it with a cutthroat business acumen. However, despite managing to convince them to begin treating wealthier patients, Renata frequently went to bed hungry as her parents invested their riches in their research (as their chemical products had the slight defect of making subjects more susceptible to suggestions) or donated to charitable causes. Eventually they became targeted by wealthy Piltover businesses threatened by their work, and Renata just barely escaped with her life as her parents burned alive in their home, losing her arm in futile efforts to save them.
Managing to scrape together some of their surviving research, Renata used it and her family name to get her own business off the ground, gradually garnering support through shady deals and public acts of philanthropy. Renata ingrained herself into the major businesses, slowly but surely convincing them to join her, and promised the young but poor prodigies of the undercity support for their families in exchange for their loyalty, using the subsequent profits to cement herself as one of Zaun's ruling Chem-Barons. Her final play to secure dominance, after a massive chemical gas leak, was to provide the entire city access to free air filters, earning the city's undying support.
From there she began to expand her business into Piltover, becoming a household name with her useful products and generosity. ...Unfortunately for everyone except her, all of her products secretly have her parents' formula embedded in them. You know, the one that makes people susceptible. When the time is right, she intends to activate the formula, putting everyone in Zaun and Piltover under her command so she can control their trade ports—and with the trade ports, the world.
There are two other short stories she features in. One of them has her steal a rival's improved designs for air filters, modify said designs for planned obsolescence, and then blow up said rival's factory. The other has some of her goons forcing Zaunite citizens to construct weapons at gunpoint.
Is she magnificent?
Come on, what would you expect from Silco Sevika a completely original character who rules Zaun's criminal underworld with a robotic fist? Renata's entire character is swaggering confidence wholeheartedly backed up by her competence, playing her rivals for chumps as she seizes power to claim the entire undercity as her property. For all her disgust at the excessive charity that caused her so much suffering as a child, she also goes out of her way to reward competence and loyalty, further inspiring her grateful underlings to raise her to greater heights in her quest for revenge against Piltover. Despite being a newcomer, she's quickly ingrained herself as the Big Bad of the Piltover/Zaun sections of the franchise, and I don't see her being toppled from that position easily.
Is she a bastard?
Corrupt Corporate Executive who built her empire upon hostile takeovers, apparently regularly forces civilians into being her workers, bombs enemies, plans for world domination via mind control. Think we're good here.
- Renata Glasc, the Chem-Baroness, grew from a poor, orphaned child of altruistic alchemists to one of the most cutthroat and richest business magnates in all of Zaun. Renata used her influential family name to rise to prominence by ingratiating herself into major businesses; lending money to poorer citizens to be paid back in perpetual loyalty if not in coin; and taking advantage of disasters to improve her public image through acts of charity, with her benevolent façade soon allowing her to become an influential figure in Piltover despite her frequent dabbling in corporate espionage. Rewarding competence and loyalty in her employees yet always ensuring she gets her dues from deals, Renata has also laced her products with her parents' accidental chemtech formula that creates susceptibility in its users, intending to one day take control of the two cities and Piltover's Sun Gate so as to extend her influence the world over.
So fair warning people who want to avoid them - this EP is gonna be full of spoilers for Endwalker.
What is the work?
The work is Final Fantasy XIV
Who is the character?
The character is Fandaniel, a major antagonist in the Endwalker expansion and questlines leading up to it.
What does he do?
Long ago the Ancients had turned the world of Etheirys into a paradise, and had mastered the art of creation magicks to will objects and beings into existence. They created a research facility, Elpis, to conduct study on lifeforms and judge if they were fit to be released into the world and thrive, or to be put down. The overseer of Elpis was Hermes, and he gradually grew discomforted with how callously the other Ancients treated the disposal of "unfit" lifeforms. Filled with existential questions, he secretly created a being called Metion that could travel the stars, and sent swarms of her sisters to other planets essentially seeking the meaning of life. Metion's sisters reported that of all the planets they had found, they either contained no signs of life, or whatever life had once lived on them was extinct. No matter how differently the various races of the universe had evolved, they all ultimately perished. Faced with this overwhelming reality, Metion embraced death as the only point to life, and resolved to travel to the edge of the universe to meet her sisters, and sing a song of despair to destroy Etheirys.
Hearing this, Hermes came to the same nihilistic conclusion as Metion, and decided that the Ancients should be judged the same as they judged the beings in Elpis as being worthy to exist or not. He aided in Metion's escape from Elpis, but remained behind himself, as it was his own interest to try and fight her, and to make it "fair", erased the memories of the day from all present including himself, replacing it with a fake memory of Metion self-destructing. Hermes soon joined the Convocation of Fourteen, the rulers of the Ancients, and took the seat and name of Fandaniel. When Metion's song threatened their civilization, the Ancients summoned a Physical God, Zodiark, to shield the planet from her. Some of the other Ancients disagreed with their handling of things (long story to get into), and they conjured a being to be Zodiark's opposite, Hydaelyn, and she sundered the world into an original world and thirteen reflections, and with it the souls of all but three Ancients.
Fandaniel/Hermes was reincarnated as Amon, a researcher and mage for the Allagan Empire. Though once a mighty nation, Allag had fallen on hard times and Amon wished to restore them to their former glory. He resurrected Xande, the first Allagan Emperor, hoping he could be the ruler they needed. Xande became obsessed with conquering death again, and espoused the belief that all one accomplished in life meant nothing once they died. Amon became disillusioned with the Empire, and at that time he was contacted by Hades, one of only three Ancients who had survived the destruction of their civlization without their soul being fragmented. Hades convinced him to reclaim his past and his title, and Amon left a clone of himself to serve Xande and took back his title of Fandaniel, as well as his memories as an Ancient (not those he erased, however).
The Ancients were reforming the Convocation as the Ascians by gathering their reincarnated selves, with the goal of restoring Zodiark and using his power to recreate their lost civilization. However, Fandaniel did not share in this goal; his experiences as Amon and echoes of his knowledge of Metion drove him to nihilism again. He sought to destroy the world and all within it, including himself. He could not rebel against the others and hope to win, so he served loyally in the meantime and kept his true ambitions secret.
Eventually Fandaniel possessed the dead body of Asahi, an aide to Prince Zenos of the Garlean Empire. Zenos desired an epic battle with the PC, and Fandaniel became his accomplice to make it happen by offering Zenos the chance to take control of Zodiark. With Zenos' blessings, Fandaniel began gathering aether to break the seals on Zodiark's prison on the moon. When he believed he had enough he made his attempt, but the last keystone holding Zodiark was still in place, so he and Zenos went to the moon to destroy it directly. Zenos destroyed the keystone, and Fandaniel then showed his true colors - instead of allowing Zenos to take control of Zodiark, Fandaniel took control himself and attacked the PC. The PC was victorious, and Fandaniel laughed as he revealed this was exactly what he wanted to happen. With Zodiark destroyed, the apocalypse that had wiped out the Ancients would occur again, and he was content there was nothing they could do to stop it. Fandaniel died believing he had accomplished exactly what he wanted - "[he] wanted to die, and take everyone with him."
Later, the PC and their allies journeyed into the aetherial sea to find Hydaelyn and receive aid to combat Metion, and encountered Fandaniel's spirit in the form of Amon, putting up a final defiance to try and stop them from reaching her. Amon was defeated, and the spirit of Asahi arrived, furious at Amon for using his body to manipulate and betray Zenos. As revenge, Asahi dragged Amon into the depths of oblivion within the aetherial sea, and implicitly to his Final Death.
Is he a bastard?
Fandaniel embraces nihilistic destruction as his cause, as he sees no point in living when life is full of suffering and death, and all that one accomplishes will be swept away in time. To accomplish this goal he plots to destroy Zodiark, the god of the Ancients, and leave the planet vulnerable to destruction by Metion (at the time, he did not know it was her specifically that would destroy them, but he knew that without Zodiark the same apocalypse would come upon the world again). Said destruction at the time of the Ancients involved the people being turned into raging monstrosities and fires raining from the skies, and this is the same fate Fandaniel knowingly inflicted on the world. In his own words: "don't bother trying to reason with me. You will find I have no reason. Or creed. Or any such tripe. I just want to destroy the world. But please do resist with all your might. It will add to my enjoyment."
In his efforts to achieve the aether needed to free Zodiark, he turned the corpse of Zenos' father Emperor Varis into a primal, using the Garlean's Patriotic Fervor as a manner of prayer for this process, and used towers containing fragments of Varis' flesh to broadcast a signal that tempered (read: brainwashed into servitude) all Garleans who heard it, plunging the nation into a chaotic and bloody civil war as its citizens turned on each other in the absence of a proper leader and with Fandaniel's towers about. He also captured members of other races to summon twisted mockeries of their own primals to absorb aether from them as well.
As Hermes, he allowed Metion to escape the planet and begin the process of destroying it, and if the Ancients could not overcome her as a trial of their worthiness to exist, they deserve to be destroyed, the same as the experiments they regularly disposed of in Elpis. Hades directly points out to him that this is Insane Troll Logic, and Hermes doesn't care and isn't swayed.
Is he magnificent?
Fandaniel is glorious hammy and dramatic, makes grand speeches all the time, and even his boss fights include flashy, theatrical mechanics. He outright refers to his efforts to recreate the Final Days and cause chaos and destruction along the way as a spectacle and a show, and the planet is his stage. He revels in his evil deeds and enjoys putting on a show with it. As one example, when he reveals to Zenos that he's controlled the body of Asahi, one of his most loyal supporters, Zenos doesn't even remember Asahi's name, and Fandaniel feigns horror at being forgotten before dismissing that the body's past owner is irrelevant anyway. He's giddy when he learns that the last of the Ascian leaders is dead and thus he is free to finally go about his own agenda, and spins around and laughs in glee.
While the PC foils several of Fandaniel's plans, he brushes them off as minor annoyances. His ultimate goal is to gather enough aether to free Zodiark, and he has myriad number of ways to get it. He works alongside Zenos as a loyal toady who claims he wants to help Zenos take control of Zodiark and use it to destroy the world, but Fandaniel hijacks Zodiark for himself and catches Zenos by surprise when he does. Even when he's defeated, the PC just did what Fandaniel wanted by destroying Zodiark. He laughs that it didn't matter if Zenos or him took control, the end result would have been the same, but it was more satisfying to do it himself. He laments that his one regret is that he wasn't able to kill the PC by his own hand, but it is irrelevant since his plans have been accomplished.
With the reveal of his past as Hermes, he is firmly cemented as a Tragic Villain, one who was trying to find meaning to life in a society where lifeforms seemed to have no value beyond what use they could be to the Ancients. Yet as Hades pointed out, the premise of the question was flawed in the first place, and the unsatisfactory answers he got from it drove him past the Despair Event Horizon and he came out the other side an Omnicidal Maniac.
Mitigating factor
One thing to take into account is that, for most of his screentime while he is acting as an antagonist, Fandaniel does not have his memories of Metion, but his experiences hearing her report remained engrained on his soul. Thus he has a certain predisposition towards nihilism even after having his memories erased and being reincarnated as Amon. But, from what is seen of him, no one can say he isn't acting of his own volition. He may not fully understand the reasons for his philosophy, but he does have reasons of his own, since he has knowledge of several apocalyptic events and seen some of them firsthand, which contributes to his nihilism to so regularly see the world's civilizations wiped off the map.
Conclusion
Fandaniel desires an apocalypse to annihilate all life in the world, conducts himself with great flair and charisma, and turns the player and Zenos into his Unwitting Pawns to see his plans to fruition.
The masseur, Sett, Frau, Doom and the Elder.
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Fandaniel. He seems too heinous by wanting to destroy the world and claiming he enjoys it.
Note : This EP has some part copied from an other EP i made somewhere else (similar to the one for Malvasia)
Note 2 : This EP will contains big spoiler so if you are playing the game "Yumeutsutsu Re:Master" or planning to do so, you better not read this EP.
What's the work ?
Yumeutsutsu Re:Master is a yuri visual novel. The story is about a girl named Ai Otori who has been engaged by Eureka Software as a video game developer where her sister also works. There she will assist to the developpement of the remaster of a game called NieMajo that she played when she was younger, while also trying to reconcile with her sister whom she didn't speak for 3 years.
The game give the player the choice to romance 4 character :
-Kokoro : Ai's sister.
-Nana : A Part-time worker,who like wearing maid uniform and acting like it. She is also a voice actor.
-Saki : The Scenarist of NieMajo.
-Marie Malher : The future game artist. Her country is actually on a civil war.
Each one of the characters has a route and two endings(a good one and a bittersweet one)
In Nana's route : We learn about Nana's dark path with her mothers, and that she haven't an easy life, Ai will help her as much as she can.
In Marie's route : We learn the origins of Marie and the situations of her country in details, she hides it from the others.
In Saki's route : Ai helps Saki trying to write NieMajo script.
In Kokoro's route : Ai tries to reconcile with Kokoro and we learn that Ai and Kokoro are in fact Nie and Majo. The two will then try to go back to their world.
Who is the Real Ai / What has she done?
Shared with the Ai protagonist :
Ai Otori is a girl who loved her stepsister Kokoro (in a romantic way). The two met when both their mother married together. However one day their mother divorced and the two couldn't see each other exepted once in the year.
Exclusive to herself:
One day, both Ai and Kokoro's souls were transported to the world of NieMajo, a game created by Eureka Software, which also caused Nie and Majo's souls to be transfered in Ai and Kokoro's body in the real world and gaining the latters memory while losing their originals one. For many years, Ai and Kokoro will leave in NieMajo world while Nie and Majo lives as Ai and Kokoro in the real world without knowing.
Note : From there, to avoid confusion, i will refer to each character like these :
1)Ai(Nie) : Ai1
2)Kokoro(Majo) : Kokoro1
3)Real Ai : Ai2 (the one proposed)
4)Real Kokoro : Kokoro2
In Kokoro's route, Ai1 and Kokoro1 discover the truth about them being Nie and Majo and decide to find a way to return to their world. For that they have the idea to change the ending of NieMajo to make it an happy ending for both Nie and Majo, hoping that will allow them to return to their world.
However Ai2 who wants to stay in NieMajo's world learns about what Ai1 and Kokoro1 try to do and decides to stop them. To do that, she will asks Kokoro2 to send many mails with her magic (when Kokoro took Majo's place, she also took her magical powers) to Ai1 and Kokoro1 to tell them to stop the game, threatening them that there will be consequences if they refuse. But that didn't stop them, so she caused many events to scare them and threatened to do worse if they continued.
Ai2 will at one point then send many mails to Kokoro1 to convaince her to stay and live in the real world with Ai1 which will works, and lead to Kokoro1 ask Ai1 to renounce about making the game and instead live their life together in the real world.
In the Bittersweet ending, Ai1 accepts and the two will live like this until they decide to commit suicide. (non canon)
In the Good ending, Ai1 will not accepts it and will convinces Kokoro1 that they have to continue the game. From there Ai2 will not send any mails, until one day when Marie struggle for drawing the Place of Promise, which is the last piece to complete the game, Ai2 will send a drawing of the place to help Marie.
When the game is finish, Ai1 and Kokoro1 are transported in NieMajo's world. They regain their original appearence as Nie and Majo and meet the Ai2 and Kokoro2. Ai2 then explain everything about why she wanted to stop them from changing the game and admit that Kokoro2 convinced her to return to the real world and that's why she decided to help them at the end. After their conversation, both Ai2 and Kokoro2 then go back to their world, but when they returns, they gain the memory of Ai1 and Kokoro1 while losing the memory they had on NieMajo's world, only remembering what happened there from Ai1 and Kokoro1's memories.
Is she Intelligent ? Does she think on her feet ?
We actually see the character onscreen only once and from what is shown, unlike Ai1, she show no sign of being airheaded or naive and speaks politely with both Nie and Majo. During the time she was offscreen and tried to stop Ai1 and Kokoro1 from finish completing NieMajo, she send many threats mails who had some effect as it would scares Ai1.
When both Ai1 and Kokoro1 didn't listen to her and continued to progress in the writing of NieMajo, Ai2 would then proceed act as she said. And while her actions are not too harmful (i will give details in the Bastard section), it actually give more tension to Ai1 and slows the team progession as result of fear.
Her biggest move however is when she used Kokoro1's love for Ai1 and convinced her to stay in the real world with Ai1 and simply live their life as such. This makes Kokoro1 tries to convince Ai1 to stay in the real world with her. (Since Ai1 was convinced by Kokoro in the Bittersweet ending, Ai2 technically wins in this ending.)
But hopefully Ai1 refused and convinced Kokoro1 to not abandon their goals. Finally, when she learns that Kokoro2 wanted to go back in the real world with her, Ai2 decides to abandon her goal and instead helps Ai1 and Kokoro1, showing that she cares more about Kokoro2 that her own desire. She will notably send the drawing of the place of promise. At the end even though she is scared to come back in the real world, she accepts it nevertheless.
Is she a Bastard ?
She tried to stop Ai1 and Kokoro1 to finish developing NieMajo in order to stay in NieMajo's world alone with Kokoro2, despite knowing that Ai1 and Kokoro1 would be prisoner in the real world. In order to slow them and to scare them, she : Puts piment in Nana's drink, booby-trapps the sofa from which Nana failed and were stuck,increases the climate in the office. Like i said it sounds soft, but it works enough to slow them.
She also originally planned to do worse to stop them making the game, but decided to not after being convinced by Kokoro2.
Points to discuss:
Kokoro2 :
I think i need to expend on this, as she is the main point of all of Ai2's actions. Technically, Kokoro2 did tried to make sure that both of them come back to the real world and had convinced Ai2 to not go along with her original plan in hope that she would failed.
However it's hard to call that manipulation, as while Ai2 didn't know right away about Kokoro2's intentions, she knew that these new methods would be less effective and went along with it anyways.
Futhermore when she learns Kokoro2's real intentions, she goes along with it and helps Ai1 and Kokoro1 instead of trying to find an other way to stop them. She just loves Kokoro2 and wants her to be happy.
It can also works in the other way as Kokoro2 loved Ai2 and that's why she agreed with somes of Ai2 decisions. That and the fact that without Kokoro2, Ai2 would not have any ressources to work with, as it's Kokoro2's magical abilities which allows her to act. And for finish, considering that Eureka Software finished NieMajo just in time, this means that if Ai2 refused to help them, they would have likely failed.
After returning to the real world :
After returning to the real world and recovering her body, she does gain Ai1's personnaliy and memory from the real world, which means she becomes a little airheaded and naive.
I know that Magnificent Bastard are supposed to stay Magnificent after being reedeemed, however here it's because when she has returned, she lost the memory she had on NieMajo's world which was replaced by the one she gained. She only remembered the events in the other world from Nie's, meaning that it's like she lived in the real world all this time and never went to NieMajo's world and thus never had the experience to grow Magnificent.
Conclusion ?
I let you decide on this. I know it can be confusing, so if you have any question, feel free to asks.
Edited by Hayuki107 on Aug 18th 2022 at 8:18:57 PM
Will rad Fanadiel and Real AI later.
Doom, the Elder.
I have a question on Renata, how mind controlly is the formula? Cause in the right light I can see that as being very bad, perhaps too bad to be "Magnificent".
Edited by jjjj2 on Aug 18th 2022 at 10:35:02 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Showtime!
to Doom and the Elder
Skipping the FFXIV ep since I want to avoid some spoilers
Abstain on Ai, it's a little hard for me to discern what she does
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
Lies and Violence!
"Extremely suggestible" is the wording used, so not outright domination of the mind but more:
"Hey, wouldn't it be a great idea if I were in charge?"
"Wow, that's a great idea! Please take everything of import we have!"
Bit busy at the moment, so will also vote on the above two later.
Okay I'll give Renata an then.
Goku Black
Renata, doom and elder.
Alright I'll abstain on Real Ai because I'm confused. Not sure on Falandrial. His character page seems a bit confused on how he's depicted Final Fantasy XIV - Ascians...
Edited by miraculous on Aug 18th 2022 at 7:58:50 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Yes to Renata but likewise going to hold off on the other two pending some more clarification.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
If you have any concerns, I'll be happy to address them if I can.
Earnestly reading it again I'm leaning yes to Fandaniel... he's an Omnicidal Maniac but he seems to have been driven to that nihilism by the callous, almost eugenic-sounding destruction of "unfit" life forms by the Ancients, that's a lot of emphasis on going about things as a Fair-Play Villain and I'm going to assume his Dragged Off to Hell bit is something he faces with dignity or at least calm resignation given there aren't any notes about him being taken down kicking and screaming.
Goku Black
@ Drake: Could you explain his Smug Snake entry on his character pge. I think I'll say yeah if that gets a response on why that isn't true as he doesn't seem any different from Kuja who is listed and does pretty much the same stuff.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
@Libraryseraph : Basically, she tries to sabotage Nie and Majo's(who are stuck in the real world) efforts to come back to their world (where Ai is actually with Kokoro), because Ai wants to stay alone in their world with Kokoro and doesn't want to come back in the real world.
I knew this would be confusing so if any of you wants clarification, tell me which part you want clarification so that i know where to expend.
Nope, no kicking and screaming at all. He just fades into a void.
I'm not sure why Smug Snake is on there, because the description doesn't even match the trope. Fandaniel is definitely disdainful and arrogant, but no more than you'd expect as usual from a villain, and certainly no more than the other Ascians of XIV. He's not overconfident, never has a Villainous Breakdown, and isn't cowardly. Here's the cutscene where he first meets the heroes in person, and his overall demeanor here is consistent with how he acts most of the time.
Edited by DrakeClawfang on Aug 18th 2022 at 10:42:15 AM
Yes to Fandaniel. As stated before, he seems no different than the majority of Omnicidal Maniac we have listed already. And he comes off as more of a Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds than someone who gets off on sadism.
I was going to say that Smug Snake entry doesn't even state why he's less competent or composed. It feels kinda like the one Talia has on her page sounding like someone venting as to why they don't like the character.
Yeah, that's why I included the Hermes stuff in particular. On his own, Fandaniel comes off as just another psycho out to destroy the world. But when you meet him as Hermes, he is very much a Tragic Villain and you see the existential and moral pain he's going through and trying to resolve before Meteion's report sends him over the edge.
Edited by DrakeClawfang on Aug 18th 2022 at 11:00:03 AM
