During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Slaine, Pearl, Jones, Inca, and Charles.
Holy geez I've got some catching up to do. Yes to the Auditor, Dekker, Phoenix, Slaine, Pearl, Motherfucker (great job catching that! G since this was once yours would you like some input on the writeup?), Mothertuuker (Aye!), Darwin (Amazing lol) and I'll say yes to Chiquito on memory.
Fantastic work all!
Also someone tell me if I missed their candidate please, I do really like to vote on everything that comes through here when I can!
Edited by 43110 on May 5th 2022 at 7:40:37 AM
Slaine, Pearl, Jones, Inca, and Charles.
He/They
Any more votes for Phoenix?
Showtime!
to Phoenix, Tuuk, Charles Darwin, and Chiquito
Echoing Brother... let's show that candidate some more love! So far I'm seeing support but it seems to be getting missed (maybe a bit of a break on EPs too? I'm thinking the vast number might be responsible).
What do we do with MB entries when the source is gone? On Web Original, the links to So Pretty and So Dark are dead - one was taken down and the other is privated. I brought it up earlier in the thread.
Edited by magnumtropus on May 5th 2022 at 12:57:24 PM
Are they behind a paywall now? I recall that being discussed and it was deemed kosher to leave them even if that's the case since people who pay can still view the work.
I tried googling it, and I found a working link. Turns out that So Dark is the name of the show, while So Pretty is just the name of the first episode. However, according to IMDb, there is no episode by that name.
Edited by magnumtropus on May 5th 2022 at 1:14:10 PM
Motherfucker Jones and leaning Darwin.
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Martuuk he seems to be outwitted in both of his appearances. I might give lenience to just his canon appearance though.
Rejected UAC Marine
Here's my write-up
- Horrible Bosses: Dean "Motherfuckah" Jones is an ex-convict who started his life of crime stealing his drunk mother's money. Serving as Nick, Kurt and Dale's "murder consultant", he cons the three out of their money to give them mediocre advice on how to murder their corrupt bosses. Across the film, Jones grows to enjoy the trio's company, even helping Dale blackmail his boss to stop her sexual harassment. In the second film, he assists them in proving their innocence in Bert Hansen's murder and arresting the real culprit, Bert's son Rex. Soft-spoken and charismatic, Jones escapes the police to use the 5 million dollars Rex intended to use for his fake ransom plot to invest in Pinkberry.
Any details missing? Should I trim this any?
Edited by ImSpidey2 on May 5th 2022 at 11:20:57 AM
That being said, I have no source.
Looks good but I thought it was "Motherfucker" not "Motherfuckah"? Also maybe work in a link to the second film? Perhaps strike the Pet the Dog pothole and do it at "second film"?
Edited by 43110 on May 5th 2022 at 11:28:23 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
The second film doesn't have its own page.
He/They
Should i make a write-up for Phoenix?
Oh thanks future and how many votes did Phoenix get?
Rejected UAC Marine
@43: He spells it himself as "Motherfuckah". As he says it himself, "White people pronounce it Motherfucker". I figured that I could pay respects to that ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Should I change it anyway?
Edited by ImSpidey2 on May 5th 2022 at 1:45:37 PM
That being said, I have no source.
He/They
I counted 5 's for Phoenix
I didn't recall that, I'm cool with leaving it how the character says it since it's his own nickname. Go for Phoenix then too!
Yes to Phoenix. Sorry I missed it.
Fun fact. Since humanity was created by the Isu to be a slave race in the Assassin's Creed setting, Darwin's Theory of Evolution is technically wrong there.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Professor Gigachad
The MILF Virus
Phoenix and Chiquito
To be fair I think most Assassin's Creed versions of real life historians and their theories are wrong in that setting, I mean we also got an almost CM with Washington.
"Are you the devil?" "Don't compare to me to those small fry" - Mir
Lord of Space
What about the entry for Auditor?
Dean "MF" Jones write-up looks fine
Well then time to get my write-ups up and running
- Aldnoah.Zero:
- Count Saazbaum is the leader of the VERS Empire's Orbital Knights and the mastermind behind the assassination attempt on on Princess Asseylum Vers Allusia, starting a war between Earth and Mars with plans to have Earth conquered so their vast resources can be used for Mars' benefit while seeking to replace the current ruling family with a more democratic government as revenge for the death of his fiancee. Saazbaum would also manipulate The Emperor, Rayregalia Vers Rayvers, into believing that Slaine Troyard is a traitor when Slaine tries telling him about Asseylum's survival resulting in his capture by Count Cruhteo before Saazbaum kills Cruhteo upon learning the truth before re-capturing Slaine. Sparing Slaine out of respect for his father having once saved him to, Saazbaum would convince Slaine to join his side helping Saazbaum defeat Inaho Kaizuka and capture Asseylum. Saazbaum and Slaine would then have Lemrina Vers Envers disguise herself as Asseylum to manipulate the Martians to continue their war Earth, before Saazbaum names Slaine as his son and successor, spending his last moments complimenting Slaine's growth before dying.
- Slaine Troyard is a Terran-born Martian who became Asseylum's closest friend after she saved his life. Growing more ruthless and cunning as he uncovers the conspiracy to kill Asseylum and start a war between Earth and Mars, Slaine would ally himself with the conspiracy's leader, Saazbaum, helping him defeat Inaho Kaizuka, and capture Asseylum before turning on Saazbaum to avenge Asseylum by letting his trap kill him. Slaine would then paint Saazbaum as a martyr to continue the war between Earth and Mars, hoping that through conquest, peace would be established, while using his role as Saazbaum successor and adopted son to become leader of the Orbital Knights, while killing off who opposes him. Using military tactics and strategies to keep the heroes on the defense, Slaine only fails to win the war when Asseylum wakes ups and escapes from Slaine clutch where Slaine makes one final stand against Inaho. Being denied the death he wanted in battle, Slaine smiles upon learning that Asseylum wanted him spared, happy to know that she still cared for him.
Edited by G-Editor on May 4th 2022 at 10:21:25 PM
The first movie on Wikipedia says "MF" and the other says "Motherfucker". Which of the three we want to use then? Haha.
The Work
The Adventures of Tintin is a classic Belgian comic, and the titular character is a comic book icon in Europe (just like Batman in USA). As the name suggests, it follows the adventures of a globetrotting reporter, his pet dog Snowy, and his friends Haddock, Calculus, and the Thompson Twins.
The Seven Crystal Balls and Prisoners of the Sun are two parts of the same story - after the mummy of Incan ruler Rascar Capac is discovered and brought to Europe, the members of the expedition start to succumb to a mysterious illness. It appears that Rascar Capac has cursed the people who desecrated his grave...
The Candidate
The candidate is an Incan High Priest called Rupac Inca Huaco, aka Chiquito
He is introduced in The Seven Crystal Balls, assisting General Alcazar (an old friend of Tintin, long story) in a knife throwing act. Alcazar tells Tintin that Chiquito is a Quechua Indian, and the last descendant of the Incas.
Tintin and Haddock are also investigating a series of attacks against the members of the Sanders-Hardiman expedition, which was responsible for finding the mummy. They are falling into comas, with fragments of shattered crystal balls being found near each victim. Sometimes, the members wake up, freak out, then fall back into a coma, all simultaneously. Despite the best attempts of Tintin and his friends, all members of the expedition succumb to the apparent curse and the mummy of Rascar Capac is stolen from one of the members houses. Calculus is also kidnapped after he discovers one of the mummy's bracelets and wears it.
When Tintin and Haddock find out that Calculus has gone missing, they conclude that he was kidnapped by the same individual who put the expedition members in a coma. Despite the police's best attempts, the kidnappers escape by switching cars. However, Tintin and Haddock find out that the kidnapper's car was spotted at a port, so they race there. Unfortunately, the ship that Calculus was taken on (the Pachacamac) has already left port, so they are unable to save him. However, Tintin encounters Alcazar boarding a ship, since his assistant Chiquito disappeared. This leads Tintin to suspect that Chiquito was involved in Calculus' disappearance.
Prisoners of the Sun' sees Tintin and Haddock in Peru, hoping to intercept the ship there. After the ship is put on quarantine due to reports of an infectious disease on board, Tintin decides to sneak onto the ship, where he finds a comatose Calculus with the Bracelet. He is caught by Chiquito, who tells him that Calculus is to be executed for sacrilege, because he wore a bracelet belonging to an Incan king.
Tintin escapes and updates Haddock, but the abductors evade the police and take Calculus to the Andes. While investigating, Tintin defends a young local boy named Zorrino from two Spaniard bullies. A mysterious man observes this and tries to talk Tintin out of looking for Calculus. When he insists, he gives Tintin a medallion, telling him that it will protect him from danger. Zorrino also returns the favor by informing Tintin that Calculus has been taken to the Temple of the Sun, and offers to take them there.
After a long journey, the trio reach the Temple of the Sun and accidentally break in. Turns out that the Temple is a surviving outpost of the Inca civilisation. They are brought before the Prince of the Sun, flanked by Chiquito and Huascar (who gave Tintin the medallion). The trio are set to be executed for sacrilege, but Zorrino is saved when Tintin gives him the medallion. Unfortunately, Tintin just gave up his one way ticket to not dying, so he and Haddock are kept captive. The prince tells them they may choose the hour at which their pyre will be set alight.
Tintin chooses the hour of their death to coincide with a solar eclipse, and convinces the terrified Incas that he can command the Sun (a Critical Research Failure on Herge's part). After Tintin's "commands" the sun to return, and the three are quickly set free. Afterwards, the Prince of the Sun tells them that the crystal balls contained a liquid that would render them comatose, and whenever the Inca high priest cast his spell over wax figures of the explorers, they would wake up in agony. Tintin tells the prince that the explorers were acting in good faith, and that they only wanted to make the world aware of the splendors of the Inca civilisation. The prince believes him and orders Chiquito to destroy the wax figures. Chiquito complies, and the seven explorers awaken in surprise, now free from their torment.
Magnificence
When we first meet Chiquito, he is working as Alcazar's assistant, but it is merely a cover for his true goal - poison the explorers and retrieve the mummy, which he succeeds in doing. After kidnapping Calculus, he successfully smuggles him to Peru.
Most Tintin antagonists are either jerks or suffer from too many indignities. Chiquito falls into neither category. At worst, he is very mistrusting of Westerners, but it is mainly because of how they have treated his people.
Bastardry
His goal is to put a team of explorers in a coma and then use voodoo dolls to torment them. He later intends to have Calculus executed for wearing a bracelet that belonged to a former king. However, upon being ordered to destroy the figurines and release the explorers from the curse, he does so without complaint.
Mitigating Issues
The only issue that I may need to address is the eclipse scene, which implies that the Incans do not understand the concept of a solar eclipse despite literally worshiping the sun. Basically, Tintin pretends to be able to manipulate the sun, everyone freaks out, and no one questions it, not even Chiquito. However, while the Prince is visibly unnerved, we don't see Chiquitos reaction. Herge also admitted that the scene was a case of Critical Research Failure on his part, and wasn't intended to say anything about the intelligence or awareness of the Incans.
Edited by magnumtropus on May 5th 2022 at 12:50:49 PM