During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Has the Endless from Endless Summer been approved?
- Magnificent Bastard: The Endless A.K.A. a future version of Taylor, travels back in time 2,139 times in order to put into motion the entire events of the books, including but not limited to inventing an entire religion for the Vaanti and waging a civil war.
Edited by HighfalutinQuelea on Apr 25th 2022 at 10:38:32 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
for Basillia
Cut Adrian
Take care, Sky.
Sounds like Aegon not being able to completely uproot all of Westros' practices, even the most unsavoury ones, due to needing the people of the land he's conquering to not hate his guts. Yes to Basilia.
We haven't talked about that VN if you'd like to cover it High.
Showtime!
to Basilia
for Basillia. Cut Adrian.
Take care, Sky.
Edited by YobabyColin on Apr 26th 2022 at 9:14:17 AM
Ultimate Moral Compass
Basillia
What's the Work?
Danger Zone One is a webcomic created by Midnight. While I’ve covered several characters from this ongoing series, there’s one part of the series that I’ve overlooked during my escapade two years ago… the audio dramas.
The Danger Zone One audio dramas are a duology of… well, audio dramas set within the comic’s universe.
We’ll be looking at Episode 2: "A Crooked Case?! Protect the Criminal!” Here, officers Reena Saffron and Madison Wynter are tasked to apprehend a powerful mob boss, and need the help of a smug thief named Lance Traft to bring her down. Hijinks ensue.
Who is She?
Lynn Dradio, head of the Dradio Crime Organization, is a powerful mob boss who always stays composed and one step ahead of her enemies.
What does she do?
“As dirty as they come,” Lynn’s responsible for “drug trafficking, illegal gambling, protection rackets, money laundering, murder… the list goes on.” But because of her army of the best lawyers money can buy, along with several bribes toward forensic lawyers, Lynn’s able to get these crimes labeled as merely “allegations.”
With the thief Lance Traft stealing Lynn’s treasures, including the ancient Dromore Egg that she got from a black market auction, Lynn found out, located Traft’s hideouts, had them looted of her goods, and then burned them down. Except, she hasn't’ found the Egg yet. Getting her lackey, Sergio, to track down Traft leaving the PCPD police station, Lynn tells her men to try and capture the crook alive. Later on, Traft escapes the PCPD van, steals a guy’s car, and heads to his secret hideout, only to find Lynn and Sergio waiting for him.
Having found the Egg with the help of her men, Lynn fully intends to having Traft slowly tortured to death, to send a message to those who think of stealing from her. Once Reena and Madison barge in and save Traft, after Sergio is incapacitated by Madison, Lynn sneaks up behind the isolated Reena and steals her gun. Accidentally dropping the Egg during her scuffle with Madison, once the Egg shatters, a microdata drive is revealed to be inside. Turns out the real Dromore Egg was lost centuries ago, so Lynn had a replica made to hide a drive containing hard evidence of her crimes.
Lynn is taken to prison, confidently promising to unleash her army of lawyers and easily escape her sentence. But thankfully, there’s enough crimes listed on the drive to properly ensure her arrest.
Is she charming? Intelligent? Able to think on her feet?
Lynn’s able to frequently outwit a skilled thief like Traft, not to mention being able to use her connections and fortune to frequently escape justice no matter how much crime she commits.
And she’s relatively calm most of the time, often assured that she’ll be able to escape any situation with her wits and lawyers.
Is she a bitch? Too much of one?
Lynn’s a mob boss through and through, engaging in all sorts of criminal activities to extend her power and fortune.
But she’s not the worst of the worst. There are far more colder, villainous characters like Miss Bliss, who engages in human trafficking, and even Drezz Vargo, a full blown pyromaniac who assists criminals in blowing up as many people as possible. A lot of Lynn’s more serious crimes are offscreen, and she doesn't go beyond the villainy of a regular, down to earth mob boss.
The competition?
Despite being a charismatic master thief, and able to one-up Madison at the end, Lance is too smarmy and gets bamboozled by Lynn too many times to properly count.
Verdict?
Keeper
Edited by therealjackieboy on Apr 26th 2022 at 8:29:13 AM
"No running in the halls!"
Yes to Lynn.
Showtime!
to Lynn
Lies and Violence!
Lynn.
On an unrelated note, anyone want to call the El Muerte movie? It’s a good idea, really!
Basilia and Lynn.
I wish you luck Emerald, cause I sure as shit ain't going anywhere near that... Unless it somehow happens to be good (which I doubt).
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
The wifi here sucks
Yes to Basila and Lynn
Yeah I'm not touching any of the Sony films
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
You're a braver man than I
Edited by papyru30 on Apr 26th 2022 at 11:50:42 AM
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Lies and Violence!
Oh hell no, I ain't going anywhere near those either. Just wanted to see if anyone would be interested/didn't value their sanity.
Did someone say "godawful SonyMarvel movie?" Miiiine!
Yes to Lynn.
I wish you luck Scraggle!
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Ultimate Moral Compass
I love how the new Sony Marvel movies have become so toxic that none of us except Scrags are willing to go near them.
Edited by therealjackieboy on Apr 26th 2022 at 11:15:55 AM
"No running in the halls!"
The Moron
The best way I saw it described is "one half of the Marvel movies at least attempt to make something good and the other half is just a money laundering scheme"
Yes to Lynn.
Hey, what's this about the Sony Marvel movies? Morbius is my favorite movie of all time, what with its 203% rating on RottenTomatoes and the fact it earned a Morbillion dollars!
Other than the Spider-Verse movies, critics seem to find them hit and miss. Speaking of which, since there's interest from a couple people, I may do Michael Morbius myself unless someone else wants to try him first.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Apr 26th 2022 at 11:27:18 AM
I quite literally handle trash for a living, my dudes. This film could not be in safer hands.
Woagh
to Lynn and Basila.
Just y'all wait until the Hippo movie is greenlit.
Speaking of announcements, it's been confirmed that a Payday 3 is happening and planned for release in 2023. Anyone mind if I reserve it?
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Apr 26th 2022 at 12:05:28 PM
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
I can at least understand Morbius getting a spin-off. He's not the most well known Spiderman antagonist, but he's appeared in a few hundred issues.
El Muerte only appeared in two. In 2006.
Yes to Lynn and Basilla.
Go for it Scraggle and Dood... may you enjoy your reservations, for one reason or another.
Cut Adrian, and with admittedly only a passing familiarity with the series I'd say Clarke would be fine — 50-50 chance a lot of her hate is from crazy shippers.
Next for APGtE... politics! Yay!
There are a few major factions in the setting:
pawnally.Now, what the League has been up to in modern times: the latest Tyrant of Helike, Kairos Theodosian, saw all the other nations weaving their intricate political machinations and decided he wanted to take a hammer to it all for shits and giggles. He started a massive civil war within the League and got a particularly insane Bellerophon citizen, Anaraxes, elected the first Hierarch since Prokopia, officially uniting the League (since he was elected, Bellerophon has no complaints, much to Anaraxes' horror upon becoming a "foreign despot"). Since Anaraxes hates the idea of leading, Kairos proceeds to shepherd them into war against the other nations, backstabbing pretty much every faction he possibly can along the way until his final Thanatos Gambit: Anaraxes, particularly powerful due to the integral role the Hierarch has in the story narrative this world runs on, declares the Seraphim of the Heavens guilty for crimes committed against Bellerophon and sentences them to death. Since they're angels they obviously live, but Anaraxes follows them up into Heaven to ensure his verdict is carried out, effectively removing the Seraphim's influence from the world for the foreseeable future while he's keeping them occupied. Kairos arranges his own death to ensure the angels of the Ophanim don't intervene.
The other leaders of the Free Cities, having recognized that Kairos was basically steering them straight into an iceberg with his dead set focus on betraying literally everyone, have been making preparations to jump ship; the leaders of Nicae and Penthes make an alliance with Dread Empress Malicia, and on her behalf accuse Cat after the Seraphim's trial of murdering Kairos. Fortunately, the Tyrant has one last backstab in store for the Empress...
Who is General Basilia?
Kairos' prize general (who until now has been mostly a minor background character), Basilia interrupts the League's confrontation with Cat to deliver the Tyrant's last will and testament: "With me dies the line of Theodosius, at last conquered by death. I name no successor and offer no legacy, save for the following words: Ye of Helike, do as you will."
She proceeds to kill one of Penthes' two leaders and declares war on the rest of Malicia's puppets within the League, spending the next few years engaging in bloody battle with Penthes and Nicae. Since the other major Helikan general, Pallas, chose to follow the Tyrant's will by joining Cat, Bailia's army has been effectively cut in half. To compensate for this loss, Basilia props up a minor landowner with familial ties to Nicae's army, Zenobia Vasilakis, as Strategos to keep the incompetent Basileus Leo Trakas busy while she focuses the bulk of her army's attention on Penthes, propelling herself forward as a major political figure through a series of quick and merciless victories. The Basileus' growing unpopularity, aided by food shortages from the civil war and the other nations naming him "friend of the Dead King" for his alliance with Malicia, eventually leads to a coup wherein Basilia is allowed into his palace, personally executing him. Strategos Zenobia crowns herself the unprecedented title of princess of Nicae, but Basilia's continued refusal to follow suit and name herself queen of Helike makes it clear to everyone else that she intends to make herself Empress over a united League.
With Procer facilitating the negotiations, Basilia convinces the Stygian's diplomat, Zoe Ixioni, to perform a coup on the Malicia-backed ruling Magisters. Now with three of the Free Cities (Helike, Nicae, and Stygia) directly under her control, Basilia has enough clout to crown herself Empress of Aenia (intentionally naming her fledgling empire after the Aenos guy from the beginning). That leaves four more Cities to go. She knows trying to conquer the entire League would probably blow up in her face, so she intends to solidify control over the the western Cities and put plans into motion for her successors to finish the job. To that end, she attempts to have the office of Empress of Aenia recognized as "Protector of the League" — someone who would lead their united forces into warfare against foreign enemies.
God, this is getting complicated fast. I hate politics. Okay, looking at my notes...
Additionally, Cat has been setting up some "Accords" for after the Dead King is slain, intended to keep the Named heroes and villains in line — you can't eliminate all crime in the world, but if some asshole decides to kill an entire city with a plague or, you know, is an omnicidal lich king, maybe it's in everyone's best interests to work together to stop him. The Hierarch (when one's actually alive) is the one supposed to handle foreign affairs, so with him gone the united League technically can't engage in the diplomacy needed to sign up with these Accords. Basilia, however, has them enact similar laws to appease Cat and promises to enforce them in exchange for authority over the League's Named (again exploiting that nice, vague little loophole of it being for the defense of the League). Part of these Accords also involves a school/city called Cardinal for reasons I really don't think anyone reading this cares about at the moment, so Basilia also gets Cat to promise some seats at this school to the Protector — bribes that can be handed out to supporters — as a way of retaining influence even if the aforementioned authority is ever taken away by the Hierarch returning and the League officially joining the Accords.
With that established, the League is finally good to join the war against the Dead King. And it only took two civil wars!
Anaraxes is kicked out of Heaven in the climax, and the epilogues reveal he refused to rejoin the League in favor of shepherding his democratic Hell. Don't ask. Everyone agrees this was basically a surrender of the title of Hierarch, meaning they're likely to elect a new one in a few years as a counterweight to Basilia. Cat predicts she'll likely pare down the Protector's powers and get Tenerife (a Principate of Procer that seceded in the whole Dead King crisis) to join the League as a trade instead.
Is she magnificent?
If you skimmed past all those godforsaken politics, then TL;DR she's a decent political maneuverer who rises from forgettable background character to an Empress with the means and explicit intent to set up a dynasty, unifying the bickering chaos of the Free Cities into something that stands a very good chance of not collapsing within literal seconds of her death.
Is she a bastard? Too much of a bastard?
Kairos Theodosian's right-hand woman, who subsequently shares responsibility for all his insane acts.
The biggest issue is that one of her Co-Dragons is the leader of the slave nation (they say they're going to outlaw slavery now, but everyone and their mother knows they're just going to rebrand it as indentured servitude like Mercantis). Honestly, while it's never spelled out, this is a necessary evil. The series goes in-depth on all the small, intricate details of statecraft — the author used to study political science — so it's made clear that completely dismantling an entire culture is going to take a lot of work short of genociding the Stygians. And even if that weren't the case, the other Free Cities would kick up a fuss over their rights being trampled on. More effort than it's worth, and she's pretty disconnected from their horrific practices, so I think it's excusable.