During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Lies and Violence!
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Andrew, Valyx, Cowler, and a happy welcome back!
Great to see you again, cap'n!
Yes to Valyx and Cowler.
Welcome back!
Yes to Valyx too.
Welcome back 43110! I’ll get to Scott’s write-up tomorrow as I’m currently watching the season 6 premier of Better Call Saul (it’s 2 and a half hours!)
Oh and to Valyx
Edited by G-Editor on Apr 19th 2022 at 3:43:48 AM
Welcome back 43!
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
By any chance, what's your take on Sa'Luk?
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Apr 19th 2022 at 6:42:51 AM
Alright since he got lots of abstains... talking to Reddish on the side I'm pretty sure this is an Evolt "fragment" that split off from the original. Between a sketchy origin story and the fact the vibes I'm getting from the EP, as I told Reddish in conversation, are Affably Evil and kinda like a cool "frenemy" I'm lodging my official support unless the writers decide he's the same character just in a new universe (Who am I kidding? They'd never make canon so clear!) Happily lodging my support!
Thank you all for the kind welcome back!
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
My apologies! I clearly haven't mastered the ways of our monthly-voting master! I've gotta say no there.
Edited by 43110 on Apr 19th 2022 at 9:44:18 AM
With that confirmation Sandaaru.
Good to have you back man! Cowler.
Showtime!
Woagh
Welcome back my dude!
to Cowler.
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Apr 19th 2022 at 7:24:00 AM
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
Professor Gigachad
Valyx. Welcome back 43.
Caesar
Yes to Scott/Virgil and Cowler, and with a big welcome back to 43, lemme commemorate it by rounding out the Yashahime: Princess Half-Demon proposals betweenst myself, 43 and Lighty with my feller...
Who is Riku? What makes him a candidate?
An upbeat "pirate" who makes scattered appearances in the early parts of the series to offer both help and trickery to the trio of leading ladies Towa, Setsuna and Moroha, Riku is soon enough revealed to be a "detachment" (basically a sentient body part) of Big Bad Kirinmaru, who serves as a loyal vassal for his master...except not really. Riku is a Wild Card who simultaneously juggles serving Kirinmaru's wishes while both aiding and inhibiting the trio in their quest to take down Kirinmaru's forces, all so as to accomplish his own goal: collecting all 7 of the powerful Rainbow Pearls.
The Pearls being the personification of the emotions for Kirinmaru's older sister Zero—the object of Riku's true loyalty—Riku witnessed Zero tear her emotions out and implant them in the Pearls many years ago, transforming the woman he cared for into a ruthless villain. Now seeking to restore Zero to her former persona out of an emotional attachment to her true self, Riku manipulates Towa, Setsuna and Moroha into hunting down and killing off all of Kirinmaru's generals, "the Four Perils", so Riku can swoop in and steal each one of the Perils' Rainbow Pearls, Riku slowly collecting them all while nonetheless offering help to the trio now and then—in one notable instance, Riku takes advantage of the vicious, evil fire god Homura's obsession with a young girl by turning the girl against Homura and driving Homura into suicide, eliminating him as an enemy of Towa and the rest.
After further collecting the Pearls—cleverly tricking two of the Perils into allying with each other and setting a trap for the trio that Riku subverts so both Perils eventually die and Riku claims their Pearls; in another case, Riku's helpful, polite attitude charms Towa to such a point that she willingly hands over her own Pearl to him—Riku lures the trio of heroines into a conflict with Zero herself and uses the opportunity to present many of the collected Pearls to Zero, hoping to empower her to her former self against the wishes of Kirinmaru.
When Kirinmaru, angry at Riku's machinations, shows up and causes trouble for Zero, Towa and the rest, Riku takes the opportunity to strike a nasty wound into Kirinmaru before fleeing the scene, evading the dark lord's wrath for the time being...forced to strike a remorseful Zero at her request, Riku desires a new purpose in life with Zero gone and so declares himself as Towa and the rest's "bodyguard", following them on their adventures for a time from a distance so as to offer them assistance and help whenever he feels they need it—to such a point that he singlehandedly decimates an entire army of demons for their sake—slowly developing a close relationship with Towa.
Now, when Towa and co. manage to bring forth the resurrected young daughter of Kirinmaru, Rion, Riku recalls the girl fondly from his service to Kirinmaru hundreds of years ago, and shifts priorities yet again to become her "protector", working with her to begin investigating Kirinmaru's schemes involving the demon world and the human world. And though their work against Kirinmaru leads to a direct confrontation with him where Riku is fatally stabbed and Rion kidnapped, Riku keeps persevering long enough to continue screwing with Kirinmaru's plans, keeping Rion out of his hands for longer periods.
As Rion is eventually captured by Kirinmaru and his other detachment Kirin and used to power the mighty Grim Butterfly to decimate the demon land, Riku reunites with Towa and the other heroines and leads them to infiltrate the mighty Grim Butterfly and face off against Kirinmaru's forces and Kirin himself, so staunchly loyal to Rion and the girls that he even rejects an offer of immortality from Kirin...Riku winds up cleverly tricking Kirin into believing he has betrayed Towa, preparing to stab Towa before revealing the facade as nothing but a ploy. Riku sacrifices himself in a blitz attack against Kirin to distract him and give Towa time to form a killing blow against Kirin, and though he lays dying, Riku shows zero regret for his hand in taking down his old master nor his own demise, urging Towa to continue fighting against Kirinmaru himself, save Rion, and know that Riku had grown to genuinely love her.
Luckily, through magic and the power of shipping, bois, Riku survives his apparent death and disguises himself as a mere traveler after Kirinmaru's defeat and his plan foiled, and Riku uses his disguise to approach the heroines one last time and present with them an offer and challenge to work with him in taking down new, powerful demons threatening the land...and before the episode is over, Riku's disguise is seen through by Towa, and he sheepishly admits he tried to avoid "ruining the emotional moment" of his death by revealing he had lived, while nonetheless admitting he's happy to be teamed up once more with Towa and her friends for a new adventure.
Is he magnificent?
Oh, for sure! He kicks ass throughout all of his appearances, successfully manipulating a lot of heavy players to serve his ever-shifting goals, always built around "helping" someone he has an emotional attachment to. He's developed over the centuries from a mindless doll into a cunning trickster, and be it tricking Towa and co. into eliminating the Four Perils, working against Kirinmaru and Kirin, or just using things as simple as an apple seed he kept from his first meeting with Towa to help in the final battle, he's awesome and comes out of the series as a total champ fighting for the good guys to save the world.
Is he a bastard?
Eeeyep, he spends a good chunk of the series as an Anti-Villain Wild Card playing all sides and getting Towa and other innocent characters thrown into the crossfire of Kirinmaru and Zero, while nonetheless having a measure of honor and nobility towards the heroines and always working towards a genuinely understandable goal.
Final Verdict?
Easy Yes!
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Gotta love Jaws!
to Valyx, Cowler and Riku.
Very good to hear from you again 43!
Edited by Amanofmanyinterests on Apr 19th 2022 at 8:24:43 AM
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
I hate spoilers
to Riku
It's nice to know 43110 is back with a new attitude. I'm there wasn't anyone to ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to ruin the mood. The Valyx EP took quite bit of care to ensure that he was worthy. I even had to go to the Scrappy cleanup thread to make sure he's been Rescued from the Scrappy Heap.
Edited by 227someguy on Apr 19th 2022 at 11:30:11 AM
Everyone look at my sandbox
Big yup for Riku! Good work bro rounding them out!
Yes to Riku.
double post. my apologies
Edited by G-Editor on Apr 19th 2022 at 6:06:47 AM
to Riku
You what screw it. I finished 43110 is back and I just finished watching BCS season 6 premier, so here's my write-up
- Tiger & Bunny:
- Rising: Andrew Scott is a NEXT seeking revenge on Mark Schneider for taking his father's company which led to his suicide. To complete his revenge Andrew recruits three other NEXTs who were ruined by Schneider and have them reek havoc on Sternbild City and attack heroes while Andrew would infiltrate Schneider's company using the alias Virgil Dingfelder to close to the man he plans to kill. He would then have his subordinates attack innocent people during Justice Day distracting the remaining heroes, while kidnapping Schneider and preparing to murder him. Stopped only by Kotetsu T. Kaburagi and Barnaby Brooks Jr, Andrew accepts his defeat with grace as Schneider gets arrested.
Andrew can go below Baxter
Riku.
I got my second EP done sooner than expected (I had it and Cowler's partially written up already) so here you all go.
What is the work?
Chikyuu Sentai Fiveman follows the five Hoshikawa siblings, the children of a pair of astronauts. While their parents were working to restore life to the planet Sidon, they were confronted by the Silver Imperial Army Zone, who were responsible for destroying life on it and many other planets like it as part of a ritual to give their ruler, Galactic Empress Meadow, eternal life. The Hoshikawa children are able to escape but wind up separated from their parents in the process.
Years later, the Zone come to Earth, eyeing it as the final planet they need to destroy for their ritual. They're met by opposition from the Fivemen, who are really the grown up Hoshikawa siblings, who spent their childhoods training for should the Zone ever come to Earth.
Who is Captain Chevalier? What does he do?
First Captain Chevalier was the original captain of Zone's flagship Vulgyre. After leading the Zone in many a successful conquest, Chevalier was permitted to retire by Meadow. He eventually grows bored of retirement however and comes to Earth to assist the Zone in their conquest. After charming every single woman inside Zone (including Meadow) and the Fiveman girls, Chevalier is able to win his way back in and, after Captain Garoa fails one time to many, Chevalier is promoted back to being Meadow's second-in-command.
From there, the threat level of Zone's plans escalate significantly, and Chevalier concocts many a scheme that come very close to succeeding. He even successfully kills Gaku / Five Red in one episode, and then proceeds to honor him by acknowledging him as a Worthy Opponent. Gaku's death is undone later, but only because the Monster of the Week screws up, it's nothing to do with Chevalier.
Later on, Meadow's visage breaks and Chevalier and the rest of the crew learn the truth about her - that she was really an illusion created by Vulgyre. Despite this revelation, Chevalier decides serving Vulgyre, and is sent out by him to slay the Fivemen so Vulgyre can absorb the blood from their deaths to assume his Galactic Super Beast form. Chevalier faces the Fivemen with the backing off his loyal team of Fiveman knock-offs, the Ginga Sentai Gingaman, and chains himself to Five Red so they can fight one-on-one, with the chain only loosening when one of them has killed. Chevalier puts up a tough fight, but Five Red ultimately slays him, with Chevalier silently falling over dead. However, even in death Chevalier manages to be useful to his boss, as Vulgyre is able to absorb the energy from Chevalier and the deaths he himself caused to assume his ultimate form.
Is he magnificent?
Chevalier's an evil warlord, but he's also quite dandy and affable. He treats his subordinates well and generally comes off as likable, even when he's doing evil things. And despite his charming and dandy personality, Chevalier is also quite ruthless and effective. His arrival sees the Zone become significantly more threatening, after they suffered a period of Villain Decay due Captain Garoa's increased bumbling and incompetence. Several of his plans come very close to succeeding, probably much more than they should, and he's perfectly willing to take to the field to get things done himself.
There are several moments where he delivers taunts to the Fivemen, but they aren't anything more than brief little jabs and many of them are legitimately funny, such as when Chevalier trolls the Fivemen by singing their own theme song (in an episode where two of them lose the ability to transform).
- One, two, three, four, five... Fivemaaaannn! Oh wait, you're now three people... Threemaaaaaan!
Vulgyre does exploit Chevalier's death to go One-Winged Angel, but there's no indication that Chevalier was an Unwitting Pawn in that instance. Vulgyre didn't set him up for failure and he had no way to predict how Chevalier's showdown with the Fivemen would go, so he most likely intended on completing his transformation by absorbing the Fivemen's blood instead. Vulgyre absorbing energy from Chevalier's body was effectively a backup plan for if Chevalier died.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
Considering Chevalier took part in many of Zone's early "conquests", it's safe to say he has the destruction of at least a few planets under his belt. Beyond a brief mention however, these conquests only exist as Offstage Villainy and are never shown on scree.
As for his actions Earth, most, if not all, of Chevalier's plans to turn Earth into a "world of death" are also so over-the-top and absurd that they lack any real visceral horror to them. His plan in his first episode is literally to use his singing to get the planet to dance itself to death. Another notable plan is when he sends a shark-themed monster to capture humans so he could cook them into meat. It sounds bad on paper, but the shark monster's method of doing so is to trap humans inside cans, and the whole episode plays like a tongue-in-cheek parody of Jaws. And the only reason Chevalier is even doing so is because he wants to give his subordinates a good meal. There's one particular moment in the episode where Dongoros offers him money for a can containing Five Pink, to which Chevalier responds that it's against his morals to take money from his subordinates before tossing him the can for free. So even when he's doing something bad, he can't help but retain a level of likability to him.
Final Verdict?
Chevalier is so magnificent he singlehandedly raised Fiveman's ratings after his debut, to the point where his actor was credited in the final episode despite not even appearing.
He also provides the video example for The Charmer, if you want to get a glimpse of him.
Just imagine something here.
I think your verdict section sums it up: idk how I could say anything but yes lol
Yes to Valyx, Chevalier, Cowler and Riku. Happy to see you back 43.
Professor Gigachad
Chevalier, sounds like a fun villain.
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Riku, Chevalier
Welcome back 43
Do you guys think Dr Neo Cortex from the new timeline (Crash 1, 2, Warped and It's About Time) be worth proposing? He suffers a bit of Villain Decay in the third game but I'd say he manages to pull it back in the 4th. My only concern is that he might be too Played for Laughs
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
43 was napping and missed that![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]")
Back now and with a new attitude ready to spread some positivity!
Oh boy... time to summon my inner MGD: yes to Mozart, Baxter, Delta, Volton, Eggman, Evolt provided we're taking him as a separate entity from his original, hard no if a continuation, Scott and Valyx.
Reddish is right, just so I've got it officially I did look into Sandaaru and do quite happily support his standing! He summed it up well, he really is cool and smart and just bad enough in a very light series with villainy that isn't even really all that in your face or anything (basically Char without redeeming qualities, which I'm sure was intentional given the VA!)
Edited by 43110 on Apr 19th 2022 at 9:25:42 AM