During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
The Moron
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
100% seriously, there’s an argument for the Joffrey from Purple Days. He’s forced into being a Groundhog Peggy Sue that makes him genuinely intelligent and he becomes genuinely badass along the way. The issue is that his canon life occurred in it, so I don’t know how we feel about it when by the end his canon crimes are millennia behind him - but there could be an argument there
Professor Gigachad
A possible MB version of freaking Joffrey the guy who is like the exact opposite of one in every way both in terms of personality and crimes. I am genuinely quite shocked at the idea.
Fanfic is one hell of a drug.
Caesar
@STAR: That's a tough one, it's always a bit questionable when absolutely disqualifying canon actions are still indicated to exist in a character's past in a separately-canon story, Funny Valentine from the non-canon Eyes of Heaven video game hits MB spectacularly, but is indicated to be—even if the game itself is non-canon—the OG canon Valentine. The same one who tried to rape a teenager.
So you're left with a character who absolutely lands in every way, but is also established as once having committed heinous crimes that—even if not really talked about in-story—are still, by Fridge Logic, "canon" to the character's backstory. This fanfic!Joff miiiiight have the same issues that prevent EOH!Valentine from landing, but I'd hear him out!
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Stranger Things 4 Vol. 1's discussion date will be 6/10, Vol. 2's will be 7/15. I’m guessing we're probably just gonna wait for the latter since we'd only be judging 4-5 episodes for the former rather than 9 overall. This'll probably be the case when Better Call Saul is discussed this summer too.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Feb 17th 2022 at 12:29:51 PM
The Moron
That's the beautiful thing - the fic really makes him work for it, but he genuinely becomes a Well-Intentioned Extremist whose goal is to defeat the White Walkers and save Westeros, and it manages to do it without whitewashing him in the process. It's a genuinely solid fic that I only quit because of an Arc Fatigue, but I'm not kidding, if anyone wants to try for an MB Joffrey, that's the first place I'd look. Ravok's points above are my main concern as well, but I'm not sure how we'd want to handle that (like I said, by the time of the fic's final loop, his canon life is literally millenia behind him and was technically "erased"), so it could be an interesting discussion if someone wants to take a beast like that on.
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Feb 17th 2022 at 3:34:07 PM
I'd be willing to hear out a case for Toph and for PD!Joff.
Speaking of, the Toph discussion reminded me of a character who, as far as I can tell, hasn't been discussed yet, which I honestly found a bit surprising. So I'm gonna check them out, and if I think they have a fair shot at qualifying, you can expect an EP by Saturday.
Professor Gigachad
So guys it seems that ANewMan just deleted his TVT account, I can't say why (though I have an idea) but I thought I should inform you guys.
Ignore what I said.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Feb 17th 2022 at 12:50:58 PM
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
@Ravok Yeah, I'm still peeved at Eyes of Heaven!Funny Valentine, mofo was so damn close to counting. 
Easily the most frustrating near-MB on my side of things.
I should've a EP of a fanfic Son Goku in a few hours, normally.
I'd be willing to hear out this fanfic Joffrey. All present versions of XANA on this trope kept their canon crimes after all.
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Feb 17th 2022 at 9:47:00 PM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
A total has-been.
Lies and Violence!
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Bronn, Khan, Molly, Cian, Olenna, and Calensk.
I have another Transformers character in the works, but before I get to him I want to address a mistake a made in one of my earliest proposals (link to original EP).
Long story short, there are these evil spirit things called Remnants that go around possessing people. However, it's not like your usual Demonic Possession; rather, a Remnant removes its host's moral compass, leaving them basically the same person as they used to be except now evil. If they latch onto someone for more than five days, the bond is permanent. This happens to one of the main characters, Tanith Low.
Now, I want to stress that the issue here isn't agency. While she likes to hammer in the above "Oh, I'm the same person, just evil!" thing from above, there are enough differences resulting from the Remnant's past memories and base desires for destruction to deem Possessed!Tanith as a separate character — she even compares the act of separating her back into two beings as killing her. No, the problem is with her ending.
Another long story short, Tanith decides to become a good guy again when she saves the main protagonist, Valkyrie, from the Big Bad. Said Big Bad is pretty annoyed and, needing information from one of the Remnant's previous hosts for unrelated reasons, elects to simply rip it out of Tanith so she can eat it and absorb its memories. Possessed!Tanith's last moments are spent desperately begging for her former Dark Messiah to not kill her, hurriedly proposing that she simply help her unlock the memories buried in her subconscious. She's ignored. To be fair, it's not a "kneeling with tears streaming down her eyes" kind of pathetic, but it's still not a great end.
Transcribed the scene below, detailing the narration's descriptions when relevant.
Now, I did mention this in the original EP, also bringing up that she never apologized for saving Valkyrie, which I thought earned her a few saving points. No one made a big deal about it, so I assumed it was fine... until realizing recently that may have just been because I didn't draw enough attention to it, leaving it out of the potential mitigating factors. This was a huge oversight on my part, for which I sincerely apologize.
Is their a way to excuse her behavior? Maybe. This sudden fear of "death" is a bit strange — she's been in life-threatening situations before, and is smart enough that she should have known betraying a god wouldn't have ended well for her. If you'll allow me to go into a bit of WMG here, I've always thought of it as the cowardly nature of the Remnant parts of their shared personality completely overshadowing the Tanith parts, as Remnants' key defining feature (besides their nihilism) is their strong desire to feel “complete” by taking a host.
- Tanith offhandedly refers to her human and Remnant sides as separate individuals with differing opinions on their messiah (the human side doesn't want to end the world, and while the Remnant side is just barely starting to agree it refuses to admit it). Other people possessed by Remnants describe similar discrepancies in views, and another guy permanently bonded to a Remnant, Moribund, advises that she can rebuild her conscience with time instead of just surrendering and "letting the Remnant win." These statements lend some credence to the idea that the Remnant has enough individuality to, at most, vehemently protest against being vacated. Her last lines could potentially be interpreted as it freaking out over the prospect of being ripped away from what it thought was a permanent home.
- As shown above, when she begins to beg the telltale signs of the Remnant's possession — black eyes and veins — flare up. This is incredibly weird, since normally they only appear when the possessed person pulls them out intentionally for intimidation purposes. Could it be an unconscious response, where she's too panicked to bother hiding these traits? Possibly, but that sort of unconscious action usually only happens when the Remnant is too angry to bother hiding them. I can't find any prior encounters where the black veins appear specifically because a Remnant is scared — even when the host is naturally a nervous, cowardly wreck — again lending credence to this just being a strong, overwhelming response from the Remnant.
If it isn't obvious, this is complete headcanon on my part. But when Tanith spends 98% of the rest of her page time as a brilliant and unflappable badass who, possessed or not, greets death with an insult and a kick to the face, I find her out-of-character ending a bit suspect.
It's admittedly a bit of Fridge Logic, but I felt I should make a token argument for one of my favorites. If the thread is actually okay with the above reasoning and she's fine to stay, cool. If she's a cut, I again apologize for letting this slip by originally.
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Feb 17th 2022 at 3:55:30 PM
[response to thumped post]
Edited by PurpleEyedGuma on Feb 17th 2022 at 3:59:00 PM
All thing's being equal, A New Man deleted their writeup. That's definitely not okay, yes?
Sadly I'd probably be a cut for Tanith there.
Edited by jjjj2 on Feb 17th 2022 at 5:47:09 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Cien, Olenna, Calensk.
Wow, I sure didn't expect Molly's proposal to go as well. I'll hold off for the write-up until I'm sure people more familiar with TWD have nothing to say against her inclusion. But it just goes to show, M Bs are sometimes where you least expect them.
Which makes me more confident for my next proposal
What's the work?
Enough To Kill For is a short revenge story fanfic written by Riordain 2.
Who is She? What Did She Do?
The one and same candidate from earlier, Molly. The story starts with the day Molly got the last bit of insulin for her sister, Sam. Later that night, Oberson, comes with a couple of guards, has Sam taken away and Molly arrested for resisting.
Molly's soon freed by her friend, Anna, but as she was making her escape...she found her sister, already turned walker, with a sign on her that said "WEAK". Enraged, Molly disarmed the first guard who stumbled upon her and caved her head in with her own gun before escaping.
Five days later, Molly turned up once more and, upon learning Anna was informed she must have an abortion, convinced her to join her cause to kill Oberson and all of his loyal people. Eventually, with the help of guards who share their hatred of them, they capture Oberson and have him standing on a plank, with a noose around his neck at the top of the bell tower. Molly and her allies then confront him and when the dictator begged for his life, retorts with this speech.
Then, she kicks the plank Oberson was standing on, watching as he choked him to his death. While the rest of the avengers gathered supplies, Molly decides to stay behind to hunt down the rest of Oberson's people. The story ends with a three weeks jump to the moment she finds and tossed the doctor over the roof, joining her canon appearance.
Is She Magnificent?
On top of her canon deeds, Molly once more displayed her quick thinking skills when weighing in the pros and cons of following an advice given by Anne before checking the South Wall (which she was warned against going) and realized her friend lied to keep her from seeing her Sam's fate. After her escape, her determination for revenge and desire to stop Oberson's oppression of the Crawford civillians got all of Oberson's dissenters to join her plan, notably prompting Anna's killing spree from canon, and successfully bringing the place to its knees.
In addition, Molly's caring bond with her sister Sam is in full display, with her safety constantly being on her mind until she was gone. Aside from Sam, her relationship with her near-childhood friend Anna is highlighted, with Molly being genuinely happy for her when learning of her pregnancy and further motivated to enact her plan.
Is She a Bitch? Too Much?
This is where we could have a problem compared to her canon version.
About half of the story covers Molly before the Cynicism Catalyst that was Sam's death. While the other half does have her start a brutal killing spree, her anger is mostly directed at a despotic leader with no regards oppressing, kicking out or executing his own people, guards loyal to his cause and willfully turning a blind eye to the suffering he's causing, and a cowardly doctor who sexually abused her and denounced her to Oberson. Asshole Victim is in full effect here.
However, Molly did put her friend Anna at gunpoint to demand her husband's keys after losing her trust in her, and it's only through recognizing her friend's regret for her lie and sympathy for her loss that she stands down. This is an action she quickly comes to regret especially after learning of her pregnancy, and makes up for it by helping her out of Crawford with her plan, ensuring her child is given a future.
Competition?
None. Any other potential qualitier either follows Molly's plan or contribute to Crawford's dictatorship one way or another.
Final Verdict?
Hoping you say 'Yes' to Molly once more.
Edited by MiraiYuji on Feb 17th 2022 at 10:14:37 AM
Caesar
Oh, from what I recall of the episode, Yes to Molly and great thinking on her, I've long tried to think up MB potentials from those games and glad one was finally slapped up! Fanfic!Molly I'm a bit more hesitant on cuz of lack of bastardry, but I can probably lean Yes with what I'm reading
And Tanith...mmmm that's tough, I hate when perfectly legitimate Keepers get endings like that that really screw with their chances. Let me think on her a bit, it's not an outright begging for her life but getting screwed over by her boss and using her last moments to make pretty desperate attempts to get out of her death is rough.
Edited by Ravok on Feb 17th 2022 at 1:25:54 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Eeeh, not sure on this Molly, I'll need to think a bit more about it.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Oh man, I'm glad I finally thought of her too. By the way, wouldn't that make her the first TWD universe character to qualify as well?
Time to cross my fingers for Fanfic!Molly.
I'm not sure I see holding Anna at gunpoint as bad enough. That seems like a hero having a weakenss in the heat of the moment type reaction. And since it's a prequel to something where she does count... I don't know, I think I'm abstaining.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Also leaning cut Tenith; not the best way to go out.
A total has-been.
I went and restored my writeup (sorry for deleting it), but now my permissions for Private Messages have apparently been suspended, even when I still have some that I need to read and respond to. Can anyone help me understand what's going on here? 
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Thanks. I did ask them and am awaiting a response. I'm just confused because this sort of suspension for just this one particular feature has never happened to me before.
Edited by ANewMan on Feb 17th 2022 at 1:37:59 AM
Goku Black
Uh, check with the Edit Banned people. I think they could restore it.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Gotta love Jaws!
to Bronn, Khan, Molly (great game), Cian, Olenna and Calensk (also a great game).
Abstain on Molly and Tanith, leaning cut for the latter though.
Haven't watched ATLA so I couldn't say on Toph, always thought her character was meant to be portrayed as reckless from looking at clips but I guess I was wrong. Would hear out an EP.
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
The Draftsman of Doom
Abstain on Molly. Cut Tenith.
Goku Black
clansk
Not sure on Tanith.
Who are you doing from Transformers?
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."