During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Barb / Temporary Kylo
Okay....Im for keeping Fisk personally, but I've done research on it and I'm not quite comfortable with some of the arguments.
"and to be blunt, I don't know why that has any bearing whatsoever on what we're talking about here. Sure, the comic itself might be iconic, but as everything we're talking about reveals, its version of Kingpin himself clearly isn't, so I don't see why the particular status of the comic affects the conversation at all when it doesn't actually affect the character at all."
From what I've looked into, that's not the case, this wasn't just a popular story he just happened to be in, Frank's run is part of what made Fisk into who we know him to be, Beforehand he was a Spider-Man villain who wasn't used much, Frank retooled him into Daredevils Arch-Enemy and helped make him into Marvel's biggest baddies because of it, Stan Lee gave his approval for the changes made saying how kingpin worked much better as a daredevil villain, Frank even has a My Real Daddy entry for Kingpin.
Bascially, if we want to decide this is like the Killing Joke for Joker on the other thread? I'm good for it, but doing my own research on the subject, it is worth keeping in mind this was not just some minor thing for him, Frank's run was hugely important and Influential for the charachter and responsible for some of his defining aspects. The fact he's way more fucking evil then anyone else depicts him there seems to be the one thing everyone, from other writers, the fans and this wiki apparently likes to forget, but the Run itself wasn't.
The First man
RIP Toriyama
The Killing Joke was also a "defining" comic for Joker that we don't take into account for his qualifications on CM, no one is denying that Miller was very influential on Kingpin as a Daredevil villain and many people very much enjoy Miller's take on Daredevil, myself included to a point, we're simply saying that when a character is depicted as not crossing those lines 99% of the time under 99% of different writers, it'd feel weird to say "well this one influential writer wrote a popular take on him that isn't this trope ergo let's cut."
I don't think Miller's take on Kingpin being "iconic" has anything to do with him being a MB or not tbh, he's an iconic villain overall who has been popular for decades and has been in tons of other stories, I reiterate that Killing Joke is one of the most popular Joker stories and he decidedly isn't a CM there, so there's really no difference here and I don't quite see how STAR was saying anything otherwise.
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
FVB, Aletheia, Skurvy and Loki
Keep Kingpin
Barb / Temporary Kylo
In that part I quoted star said that while the comic was popular it's take on kingpin clearly wasn't and didn't affect the charachter so that shouldn't be relevant to the discussion. When as said above that's not the situation at all.
And...I brought up the killing joke comparison in my post, I'm in the keep territory as well, My discomfort was just what I said it was above.
The First man
Shin Megami Tensei IV
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Don't forget stuff like Emperor Joker, where Joker is also DEFINITELY NOT A CM there, but its also a iconic tale
Keep Kingpin.
I haven't really thought too much about it before, but this discussion about Kingpin has made me realize that Comic Books (specifically ones from large publishers that have been going on for decades) are probably the hardest medium to discuss candidates for because comics by nature are heavily subject to Depending on the Writer. Villains who only appear in a handful of arcs aren't a problem, but when we discuss some of the more prominent ones, we could probably find at least one moment that if it were in a different medium like a TV Show or Film, would be an instant disqualifier from MB for like, half our Marvel and DC candidates
Edited by Awesomekid42 on Oct 17th 2021 at 2:48:58 PM
Goku Black
Loki
to The Alchemist, Mark Faba, Taheiji Koyama, Ai Emma, the Headmaster, Wrathion, Feathers Mcgraw, Kozo Fuyutsuki, FVB, Aletheia and Loki.
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Hector.
I say keep Kingpin.
Gotta love Jaws!
I mean, my hesitance for Fisk extends to why I honestly kinda feel hesitance for almost all long running comic characters, continuity is a complete and utter mess and it's near impossible to truly pinpoint a singular characterisation. I completely trust that he only does this in this run but the way comics work have honestly always made long running characters risky if nothing else.
Still, by the standards we operate I believe he's a keep.
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
Keep Kingpin. Since we decided to cut Norman as a CM for showing that he cares about Harry at times despite trying to kill him in several storylines, then I am going to give Kingpin the benefit of the dobut. However, if Miller's run is too much of an issue, then we should consider cutting any version who does engage in child sexual abuse or has ordered a rape.
Edited by YobabyColin on Oct 17th 2021 at 9:34:34 AM
...God damnit Frank. Ugh. But I'm with the majority here: Keep Fisk. His tenure under Miller is a small part of his career, long running comics get some leeway with Depending on the Author and I trust Lighty and Ravok's judgement.
Yes to the FVB as well. I should check that Sergeant Pepper film out.
Loki. Keep Fisk.
RIP Toriyama
I sometimes genuinely wonder, since we're much looser on this thread than on CM, if we should take Depending on the Writer to the next level and flat-out allow examples of "Under (insert writer here)'s pen in the story arc (X), (villain who doesn't usually qualify) is written far more brilliant and charming."
Like, ok, to compare to an example we had up recently: Mysterio from the story arc Guardian Devil. He hits this trope in every way except he does something that was later rightfully decided to be too vile, but besides that, most people were fine with him being listed...even though that was just one writer's take on him to make him a way more cool, collected, badass threat in the greater scheme of Marvel's weird continuity.
Mysterio as a whole doesn't count because a solid 75% of the time, he's written as a goofball who makes mistakes, is laughed at, and has deep emotional issues, but that one arc where he got his shit together and kicked ass before going back right back to being a regular ol' villain under others' pen, we seemed pretty much fine with him being up.
I'm not saying we should be allowed to find a story arc where the Purple Man doesn't rape anyone and is mildly intelligent, so then we go "well here's one of the few Depending on the Writer takes on this character who isn't a gigantic piece of shit so let's list as MB."
But I also think maaaaaaaybe some lenience could be applied to villains like, say, the Riddler, who is very fucking all over the place depending on who's writing him on whether he's gonna be "badass schemer with cool puzzles able to keep pace with Batman", or is "total loser whose puzzles are easy and Batman beats while he rants like a child." But he also is pretty much never written like a fuckin' child rapist or human trafficker, so I personally would be ok if someone said "Hey there's this 6 or 8 or 12 issue arc by this one writer where Riddler is portrayed as smart and cool, let's list that one with the addendum of Depending on the Writer.
Perhaps that's too much of a "Pandora's box" opener, but I think there's some merit to it. Comics are so loose with continuity that what one character is under one writer, can be polar opposite what it is under another, and while I get the difference with Kingpin is "it's one take on him VS how he's portrayed 99% of the rest of the time so we can ignore his heinous acts in Miller's run", I think letting the pendulum swing some the other way and saying "this character isn't usually written as MB, but they're also not written 99% of the time as a total monster and/or loser goofball" can maybe be allowed some wiggle room to let one or two writer's takes on them for a story arc to be fair game to discuss.
Comics are so loose that a writer will "kill a villain off" definitively, absolutely, no coming back, then the next writer will have the villain back without explanation or with an extremely flimsy one (see: the time Mysterio killed himself in Guardian Devil, then another writer brought him back as a demon from Hell just to have an excuse to then give him a new body and return him to Status Quo). I think if that level of flimsy, loose, non-communicative storytelling can go on in a "single canon", then we could perhaps allow that same looser take on certain Depending on the Writer iterations of characters, even if they "share a canon" with other takes by other writers.
That's just me though, this might not fall into the "agreeable" category for anyone else, but that's where I find myself after this Kingpin convo.
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
I'm cool with that, the comic continuity is a fucking nightmare in the first place and I think that's an excellent way to make it manageable Rav!
I do think it will be a pandora's box, but if that's the thread decides then I welcome it. I will say that will allow lots of keepers who would've otherwise been untenable (Side note I was one of the people who would've been a downvote to Mysterio being listed irrespective of the psycho thing he did).
Edited by jjjj2 on Oct 17th 2021 at 2:15:07 PM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Honestly... I've thought that would be a decent idea for a long time.
Showtime!
Honestly, I support Rav's idea
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
The Draftsman of Doom
Rav's idea works.
Feels good, don't it?
Goku Black
Honestly I would love Rav's idea.
So uh I kinda want help on something. Since we're on the comic discussion.
I was planning to look over the Rogues from the Flash (comic) and tbh a lot of them could probably make it here. Pied Piper, Captain Cold, Golden Glider, the trickster, etc.
But since they're in so much and this one has so many candidates. I wonder if anyone would like to help.
Edited by miraculous on Oct 17th 2021 at 11:18:13 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
That's an interesting idea. I think it could work. But there will definitely be times we should put our foot down like the aforementioned Purple-Man. In fact, the only character that might be a problem - that immediately comes to mind - is The Joker, whom is both immensely popular and very unconventionally intelligent - and is almost always depicted as a sadistic, petty, cruel, egotistical, abusive dick. But Pandora's Box? I don't know if I'd go so far as to call it that.
I actually was wondering about a character that might count under DOTW, but I wonder if now's the right time to bring him up. Unfortunately, I don't own the issue(s) he appears in, so I would be happy if someone with a better comic collection would like to take him. Since I'd rather Ravok's idea get resolved first, if you wanna know more about this villain, feel free to PM lest we clog up the thread.
Edited by PolarPhantom on Oct 17th 2021 at 11:21:42 AM
The Moron
Honestly, I love Captain Cold so I'm down to help with him in particular
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
I mean, that doesn't sound like an implication there, that sounds like an outright statement ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
So yeah, it's probably good to go there
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Oct 17th 2021 at 2:25:07 PM
Ah, fuck, I forgot to consult my own admin post:
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
Lumped under a different topic but I'd say Ravok's proposal is supported well enough by implication here. Think we're good to implement!
for the FVB, Aletheia, Skurvy (tentative), and Loki.
Keep the Kingpin.
We already have Depending on the Writer for a few characters. We might as well go the extra step. Looking to see where this leads!
"Curse of the Crystal Coconut
" (music video for Alestorm's "Pirate's Scorn"): Kaptain Skurvy is a ruthless pirate captain who seeks to uphold his family's legacy by retrieving the Crystal Coconut from the Kongs. Skurvy leads his crew into a raid on Cranky's cabin, using Cranky's own traps against the Kongs, then switches gears to King K. Rool's base once he realizes he has the Coconut. Using his vast arsenal of cannons, Skurvy effectively wipes out all opposition—including K. Rool and Donkey Kong—and takes over all of Kongo Bongo with the Coconut in his hands.
Oh okay then, that's a more straightforward keep for me then.
Edited by jjjj2 on Oct 16th 2021 at 1:32:11 PM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid