During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Yes to Kharl and Darkman.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Darkman
The Draftsman of Doom
Sure to Darkman.
Caesar
'Yes' to Odysseus, Darkman and of course the biggest 'Yes' to Prince Faisal, I'll have my Lawrence candidate up soon!! I think I'll just edge 'Yes' to Kharl as well, all things considered.
Alrighty, talked this one over with 43 and while I'm a bit conflicted, I wanna bring this one up for relitigation on this trope, another of the CM/MB crossovers that we have issues with...specifically, Aggregor.
- Aggregor is an Osmosian warlord who desires total control of the universe. To do this, he captures five Andromeda aliens before attempting to return to his homeworld in order to fully absorb their powers. When his ship's hyperdrive was damaged, Aggregor used Paradox's time machine as backup, successfully merging himself with the aforementioned aliens as Ultimate Aggregor. With his newfound power, Aggregor traveled around the universe, collecting the four pieces of the Map of Infinity by letting the heroes do the hard work before swooping in to take it. Afterwards, with all four pieces, Aggregor travelled to the Forge of Creation in order to absorb an infant Celestialsapien so he can obtain absolute power. A ruthless villain who deals with the heroes personally, Aggregor stood out as the most successful among Ben's adversaries, only failing due to Kevin making a Heroic Sacrifice by absorbing the Ultimatrix to gain enough power to defeat him.
It's undeniable that Aggregor is a very successful chap who routinely outwits the heroes, and almost comes out on top by his final episode. My problems with him are threefold:
- First and most notably, he's pretty damn despicably bad. By the standards of the franchise, his acts aren't too "wide scope" evil, but he's treated as a very personally vile antagonist by Ben and the gang who view him with nothing but the utmost loathing. Aggregor murders 5 aliens who are given character and depth to them (very unique for onscreen murder victims of this show) to drain their energies, is willing to casually doom an entire planet to extinction to obtain an artifact, and his ultimate goal is to murder a newborn Celestialsapien to absorb its powers—the Celestialsapien even presents itself in an infant form, making Aggregor ready to murder the thing and steal its life force to turn himself into a god a bit...uh, rough.
- Secondly, Aggregor...really doesn't have all that much in the way of charm or charisma. Someone like Argost or Cobra Commanders I've proposed, they have massive amounts of hamminess, charisma, over-the-top personalities that make even their most evil moments still fun. Aggregor...is a cold-blooded, deadly serious creep who only has the most basic veneer of Faux Affably Evil going for him, and it's often used to punctuate dick moments like tricking Ben and Kevin into lifting a massive door for him, casually mocking their predicament stuck holding the door, and smugly snarking that a grievously-wounded Gwen nearby "doesn't look too good" as he brags that he's made them all his stooges. The dude is kind of a jerk lol, best demonstrated when Kevin makes a genuine attempt to dissuade him from his plot to absorb the life forces of innocents because it can drive his species insane...Aggregor just snarls "Lies! Told by the powerful to control the weak!" and goes ahead with the absorption.
- Lastly, and this one is more personal taste admittedly, but the dude goes out like a total Anti-Climax Boss chump. He spends most of the show staying on top of things, but as soon as Kevin decides to risk his sanity by absorbing the Ultimatrix for a power boost as a last ditch effort? Aggregor promptly gets on the receiving end of a Curb-Stomp Battle where he can do precisely jack shit to Kevin who throws him around and renders him visibly-scared then unconscious. This is the last we see of Aggregor as he is quickly brushed aside by the narrative to focus on Kevin as the new Big Bad.
I dunno, Aggregor hits a lot of technical terms and pulls off several The Bad Guy Wins, but to paraphrase what 43 said, "Smart CM does not equal MB", and I think that ultimately is where Aggregor lands. He's a very successful, clever baddie, but he's also hella smug and dickish, has a rapsheet of crimes that are treated as very personally-despicable, and he goes out with a very anti-climactic whimper, thrashed by Kevin and brushed aside by the narrative immediately.
With all this in mind, I'd honestly have to say I'm lodging a formal 'Cut' proposal for Aggregor. Willing to hear counterarguments, but I'm pretty set for this one.
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
The Draftsman of Doom
Doom Aggregor ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Yeah, I grasp it's a kid's show and all but as we've seen on CM it's taking quite a bit to punch out there (on a galactic level) to make that trope and Aggregor is fitting in just fine with heaps on nasty, in your face, personal villainy. The very superficial charm isn't doing much to dress up the complete asshole he is and his whimper of a defeat isn't leaving him with much oompf or 'staying power'. All together I'm fine with seeing him go! great job there!
Cut Aggregor and don’t look back.
Cut Aggs.
Caesar
No one fret though, as I'll be taking a deeper dive into the Ben 10 franchise for MBs. Only Omniverse currently has any listed, but I've got a fair few in mind from the earlier series that should be great fun so y'all stay tuned!
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
The wifi here sucks
Cut Aggregor and a weak yes to Kharl as well as a stronger one to Darkman
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Aggregor. If I'll be honest I was always a bit baffled how he ended as MB. He doesn't have the charm that guys like Argost or Kronos have to counterbalance his heinousness. Sure he's a very smart and successful villain, but he doesn't really manipulate that much, he just waits for the heroes to blunder then waltzes in after..
Oh btw Ravok, can I discuss some potential Ben 10 MBs with you? I came across at least two in my search for CMs
Edited by Snowy66 on Jul 18th 2021 at 5:02:58 AM
Professor Gigachad
Yeah cut Aggregor, you know this brings up an observation I have noticed about CM/MB crossovers. That they tend to be much more common in single instalment works rather than massive franchisees with tons of CM's. The reason is pretty obvious if a villain is already toeing the line between "awful enough for CM" and "not so awful, they can't be an MB" they will have a hard time standing out if they are in a franchise with a high heinous standard. Feels like Aggregor guy falls under the category of that where the fact he is a CM is a problem due to the franchise's high heinous standard
Just an interesting observation I made.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Jul 18th 2021 at 12:19:32 PM
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Remove the "showing off his status as arguably the Token Good Teammate of the Accelerationists." from Red Flood Howard Scott's description because acc's are not all bad and have some clearly good ones outside of Scott (Mayakovsky, Khlembnikov, Semenko, etc.).
Alright, think we're just about done with Ben 10 CMs, I'll drop the few other MB candidates then. First one is Inspector 13.
Who is Inspector 13 and what has he done?
Ben's team often had to deal with a series of very advanced troublesome war-robots known as techadons. They are very difficult to destroy due to their regenerative ability, high firepower, and in one instance adaptive ability that make newer models resistant to how the previous one was defeated. Techadons are created by Techadon Weapon Masters, who sell their advanced technology to anyone who can afford it. Weapons Masters are scarcely seen, with the only one to physically appear being Inspector 13.
Ultimate Alien:
Noting the unusual number of Techadons defeated on Earth, Inspector 13 arrives to investigate. He tracks an Omnitrix signal to look for Ben, wishing to acquire this technology and reverse-engineer it. Upon finding Ben with the Ultrimatrix, he incapacitates and kidnaps Ben then takes him aboard his ship.
With Ben as his captive, Inspector 13 plans on cutting the Ultimatrix off, but halts when Ben tells him this would trigger the self-destruct mechanism. So he instead decides to hack the Ultimatrix, quickly bypassing security measures.
When Gwen and Kevin attempt a rescue, the Inspector's tech proves very troublesome, countering Kevin's powers. Due to the Ultimatrix still being hacked, it instead transforms Gwen and Kevin instead.
With his ship damaged, Inspector retreats to a Techadon base located on Earth. Ben manages to escape and is forced to fight without powers.
The malfunctioning Ultimatrix transforms Gwen and Kevin into random aliens, settling on Gwen getting Upchuck and Kevin with Nanomech. Breaking into the factory is difficult due to the self-repairing walls. When Inspector 13 spots Nanomech, he implements "SPLAT" protocol, i.e. a robotic flyswat that crushes him. Inspector then dispatches hoards of unfinished Techadons to keep the duo busy, before Ben finally regains his powers and knocks him out
Omniverse:
Inspector 13 is no longer a Techadon Weapons Master due to his failure to acquire the Ultimatrix, but is undeterred and instead becomes an independent businessman operating on Earth, which he notes yields more profit.
Inspector 13 is being pursued by the heroes in a truck that he is driverlessly controlling. In order to shake off his pursuers, Inspector 13 has his robots blast them and manages to get away (in part due to Ben being replaced with his Evil Twin Albedo).
Asking the underworld about his warehouse location, they sneak in only to find Inspector 13 is prepared for them with an army of Techadons waiting. When Albedo reveals himself, Inspector reveals he already knew this was Albedo and correctly guessed the technological component he was after.
Inspector 13 then fights Albedo, able to quite effectively counter many of Albedo's alien forms including: making the Techadons dog-pile Albedo, and detonating a device to free himself when encased in ice. Though Albedo ends up beating him by knocking away his blaster. As he gets arrested, Inspector 13 calmly pleads for amnesty.
Inspector 13's final appearance he shows himself to be a Snake Oil Salesman, as while his products are quite good, they are not able to be handled well by his client Liam. Nonetheless Inspector 13 is able to keep conning Liam with more deals for more weapons, with each of them getting broken or lost.
How is he Magnificent?
Inspector 13 is Crazy-Prepared with multiple contingencies and devices in place to prepare for a wide variety of enemies and situations. He is very cunning, being a Combat Pragmatist who is able to use his tech in creative ways to get himself out of a jam.
In terms of personality he always speaks in a cold, calculating tone and almost never breaks character. The one time he did was to give an unsettling Evil Laugh when Ben told him the Omnitrix wasn't a weapon.
His defeats are very dignified, with him never having anything amounting to a breakdown and always recovers quite well by his next appearance. His final appearance could even be passed off as The Bad Guy Wins as he is happily operating his weapons sales without any interference from the heroes.
Competition?
Ben's team and Albedo.
He is able to capture Ben with little trouble and keeps fending off his teammates. He ultimately gets beaten by being overpowered not being outsmarted.
His second appearance has him outmaneuver Albedo and Rook, while his fight with Albedo has him using his cunning to get the edge several times.
Too much of a Bastard?
Well he manufactures extremely dangerous tech and robots intended to assassinate their targets. But he doesn't care about his client's morality, so long as he is paid. He never does any dog-kicking or show any sadism, being a No-Nonsense Nemesis who is as pragmatic as they come.
Final verdict?
Have already talked over with Ravok who thinks he has a good chance
Edited by Snowy66 on Jul 18th 2021 at 7:35:58 AM
Goku Black
Kharl, Darkman and Inspectpr 13
Btw can I Pm you guys. Theirs one that I might do but I'm uh not sure due to uh well it's hard to explain here so would like a second opinion.
And yeah cut Aggregor. Not the most interesting villain tbh.
Edited by miraculous on Jul 18th 2021 at 4:03:01 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Yeah sure, I'm open to talk.
Darkman and Inspector
Cut Aggregor
Lies and Violence!
Odysseus, Kharl, Darkman, 13.
Gotta be honest, I never liked Aggregor. Always too... just meh for me, not sure why.
Deleted this off the Avatar: The Last Airbender - The Fire Nation character page in Admiral Zhao's folder. Main thing is that Magnificent Bastard is YMMV, but Zhao's pretty far from this trope given he's a Smug Snake.
- Magnificent Bastard: Most of the time he's a Smug Snake, but the man has impeccable timing. (For example, demanding the Yu Yan Archers right as he's promoted)
Edited by k410ren on Jul 18th 2021 at 8:45:35 AM
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
I was the one who proposed Aggregor as an MB years ago caused every time he's onscreen, he always gave me the impression that he's an intelligent chessmaster plus I thought that his cruel actions each had a purpose. Sadly I guess him being Faux Affably Evil does not mean charm or charisma and I overlooked much of his sadistic traits. Sad that he has to go but I won't argue about it.
Yeh Zhao is just an asshole who is really ambitious but is way in over his head. Ignoring warnings from his own elders, he gets a very undignified Karmic Death. Definitely not an MB.
Don't worry about it Loek. Back in those days, he probably fit as an MB more before the definition got tightened.
Edited by Snowy66 on Jul 18th 2021 at 5:55:03 AM
Cut Aggregor. From the sounds of it, sure to Inspector 13
Showtime!
knowing Darkman as I do, Peyton is...ruthless, absolutely. HE's definitely in the bastard side. Like he breaks a carnie's arm at one point