During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Lizzid people!
Sure; looks good.
Edit
Edited by Lightysnake on May 28th 2021 at 11:57:08 AM
Yeah, there is a difference between an MB and a Guile Hero with some questionable actions.
In Star Trek James Kirk and Ben Sisko did some questionable things, but I do not think they are bad enough to count.
The votes on Numinus seem split, so I will not give her a write up.
Yes to Shredder and Rita Repulsa.
Edited by Overlord on May 29th 2021 at 6:39:11 AM
Gotta love Jaws!
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Shredder and Rita Repulsa.
The Moron
Yes to Shredder and Rita - I'm also cool with the Batman entry, since he's the only person on the list whose problem is that he's too heroic.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Just being a bit blunt here, if you haven't seen the movies, then you probably shouldn't propose a character/cut from the work.
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on May 29th 2021 at 9:56:34 AM
to Morgana.
I hadn't realized Kramer had been said before. That being said, I think that the fact that he truly believes in his cause works against him rather than for him, considering how his whole philosophy is full of sh*t and the vast majority of survivors of his traps either becoming psychotic killers themselves or don't exactly have a new appreciation for life. However, as I said, I haven't actually seen the movies, so I can't be a perfect judge on his qualifications.
Lies and Violence!
Shredder and Rita
- A Practical Guide to Evil:
- Dread Emperor Traitorous was infamous for his habit of double-crossing anyone he could, stating that "Treason is more art than act." Starting numerous cabals with the intent to overthrow himself, Traitorous successfully usurped his own throne countless times, his co-conspirators unaware of his true identity until it was too late. Managing to disguise himself as his (female) Chancellor, betray a villain with the Name of Betrayer, trade the soul of a single gnat for infernal enlightenment, and fake a redemption even when an Angel Choir got involved, Traitorous notoriously stated that he would prefer being on all sides of history rather than one, ultimately committing suicide and framing over a hundred different people for his murder.
- Dread Emperor Irritant, the Oddly Successful, was known for his ability to find victory through the strangest of tactics. Frequently using his defeat at the hands of heroes to further his own plans, Irritant would repair the palaces they destroyed to pull Praes out of an economic slump, let them defeat the rebellious army he hadn't paid in over a year, trick them into destroying artifacts belonging to political rivals while Irritant attempted to "stop" them, and use their honor to avoid punishment by abdicating (three separate times) to become a surprisingly decent shoemaker. Waiting for luck to turn all the way around back in his favor, Irritant made his mark as an eccentric yet strangely competent Dread Emperor.
Any pothole ideas? I was thinking Not-So-Harmless Villain for Irritant, but I think that more applies to villains who become serious threats, and while Irritant's successful I don't think I'd call him a serious threat.
Goddamn - how did I not think of that.
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on May 29th 2021 at 7:04:00 AM
Goku Black
Lizzid people!
Shredder and Rita
Jaeger, Morgana, Shredder, Rita.
I really like the batman entry.
Edited by jjjj2 on May 29th 2021 at 10:09:16 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Yes to Shredder and Rita and thinking it over I'm honestly good with Batman getting a Treat With Caution entry— a lot of people have come to consider him the standard "heroic" archetype of one and he's got multiple alternate versions and expies up... plus, I can very much see the value of having Batman there as a counterpart to L, considering he's an example of an Anti-Hero who doesn't get his hands dirty enough to be an MB, or at least not without very, very heavy pressure.
"The Juice is Loose."
Yes to Shredder and Rita.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Oh, yes to Shredder and Rita - is this our first Rita keep? I recall someone suggesting her Boom! Comics incarnation could keep.
Also, as on the CM thread, we're getting a sequel to Bloodstained Ritual of the Night! May I be so bold as to reserve it?
And Scraggle, would you like to collab on this like we did on the original ROTN?
"The Juice is Loose."
From my memory she would be an easy keep in the mainline Boom Studios comic, but it's been a while since I read the comics with her. So I could be wrong.
Edited by Bullman on May 29th 2021 at 11:56:14 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Aye to Jaeger, Morgana, Shredder and Rita. I'm cool with all the recent So You Want to Write a Magnificent Bastard entries.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
for Madara, Raven, Jaegar, Morgana, Shredder and Rita.
Yes to Madara, Raven, Radi, Morgana and Shredder & Rita! Damn, busy!
to Jaeger, Morgana, Rita, and Shredder
The Moron
Alright, I mentioned a while ago that I had a potential fanfic keeper from To Hell and Back (Arrowverse), the source of two of my earliest CMs. Well, here he is. I present to you Malcolm Merlyn - and I swear I'm not making this up.
Side note: the fic is an ongoing Long Runner, but it hasn't been updated in six months, so I'm willing to say it's fair game now and just adjust as necessary.
What is the work?
To Hell and Back (Arrowverse) is a massive Arrowverse fic designed the bring the main three shows together more cohesively. In it, not only was Oliver stranded on Lian Yu, but so were Barry Allen, Kara Zor-El, and Kal-El. While surviving on the island and eventually escaping, they were recruited by the League of Assassins and Ra's al Ghul, who groomed them into his most successful units yet. Eventually, they were released to go back to their cities under the promise that they still work for the League, prompting them to return home and adopt their superhero identities. Of course, with Oliver returning to Starling City, so comes Malcolm Merlyn/The Dark Archer.
Who is Malcolm Merlyn? What does he do?
Malcolm Merlyn, as per canon, is a successful businessman and friend of the Queen family with a dark secret - he's masterminding the Undertaking, an attempt to better the city by destroying a large chunk of it, the section in which his wife was murdered and several others left her to die. Along the way, this led to sinking the Queen's Gambit, the boat Oliver was on, in order to protect his operation. Of course, Oliver eventually returns, something that he's genuinely happy for, until Oliver's arrival leads to the Green Arrow making his presence known and going after Tempest, Malcolm's operation.
Malcolm is largely content to sit on the sidelines until Christmas, when he takes a warehouse full of hostages to draw the Hood out. Oliver takes the bait, and Malcolm thrashes him as per canon, with Oliver only barely escaping. The Hood then continues his work, prompting Malcolm to try something new - at the Humanitarian of the Year speech, he hires Deadshot and the Triad to kill him, hoping to draw the Hood out. The plan works - the assassins strike, he escapes, takes Tommy to the panic room, and waits for Deadshot to make his attempt (he's wearing a vest). Unfortunately, Tommy notices first and pushes his father out of the way, taking the shot for him. Oliver arrives in civilian garb and gives his own blood to Tommy on the spot... which Malcolm eventually deduces to mean that Oliver is his son (instead of Thea being his daughter).
Realizing that this means that he stranded his own son to Lian Yu, Malcolm briefly breaks down before resolving to finish his plan - after all, he's come too far to back off. Unfortunately for him, he accidentally makes himself - at a birthday party for Ruby Arias, Malcolm does his coin trick for her, and since Oliver had already been warned about "The Magician" from Ra's, he puts two and two together. Additionally, on the night of the Undertaking, Frank Chen goes public with it thanks to Amanda Waller's interference, putting it on the public radar. He attempts to make it happen anyway, but Supergirl stops it and Oliver defeats him handily, seemingly ending his threat permanently.
However, as bad as that particular defeat is? He recovers, and he recovers gloriously.
Since he actually gets arrested, he's in transport when the convoy gets attacked by the League of Shadows, led by Talia al Ghul. Talia reveals that she's aware that Malcolm has a Lazarus Pit for himself, and she promises that he'll tell her where it is at some point, revealing that she has manipulated his son Tommy into serving her to serve as leverage. Malcolm then also reveals that she is the reason he left the League originally after he watched her massacre fifty innocents just because one of them insulted her. Malcolm swears that he will never talk, so Talia takes him prisoner, intending to get the information she wants out of him one way or the other. Malcolm decides to play that game, so she takes him away.
Except she made one crucial mistake - she Forgot to Gag Him.
At some point, Tommy stumbled on him being held hostage, so Malcolm began to talk his way out of the situation. Over the next months, Tommy would go to him and they would talk, where Malcolm would slowly but surely convince him that Isabel, Tommy's now-deceased lover, was murdered by Talia in a gambit to bring him to her, even deliberately leaving out the correct fact that they were actually working together because Tommy wouldn't believe him. After months, Tommy finally became convinced, so Malcolm set in motion his final plan.
After Talia returns from her failed attack on the fledgling Justice League, she begins ordering Tommy around like usual - except as soon as she turns her back, Tommy stabs her, killing her. Out walks Malcolm, who reveals how long he's been turning Tommy to his side, and that he's gotten enough of her forces on his side that he could comfortably control the situation from the inside. Once that's done, he orders the people who betrayed Talia killed because if they'd turn on her then they might turn on him, then creates a body double and plants it in Nanda Parbat, convincing ARGUS that he's been killed. Following that, he walks Tommy through some logic - not knowing that Oliver is the Green Arrow but knowing that the Arrow is connected to the League of Assassins, he realizes that Oliver is in danger for as long as the Green Arrow lives. To counteract this, he informs Tommy of everything he knows, then sends Tommy back to the city to serve as his main operative.
The fic is ongoing but hasn't been updated in months - if an update is necessary, I can provide.
Is he Magnificent?
He doesn't start there, but he gets there. While he's got some small gambits before the Undertaking, once that fails in pretty much every possible way, he recovers so fast you'd think he meant to get in that situation. He outplays Talia al Ghul, manipulates his son into throwing his lot in with him, covers his tracks so well that even ARGUS thinks he's dead, wisely lays low after Talia's gone, and is working off of the information he has, so while there is some Dramatic Irony with his plans, what he's doing is smart for the information he has. He picks and chooses what information to give his son to ensure he believes him - he even leaves out the fact that Isabel was working for Talia, even though it's right (and we know it is) because Tommy wouldn't believe him and it would kill his credibility. So yes, while the Undertaking is a failure, he showcases his intelligence and Xanatos Speed Chess abilities both before and afterwards to ensure that he counts, especially since he's missing his canon sadism, pettiness, and Stupid Evil tendencies.
Is he a Bastard?
On the one hand, he masterminded a giant terrorist attack against a large chunk of Starling City, manipulates everyone from enemies to his own son whenever he must, goads his son Tommy into getting his first kill, and takes over the League of Shadows for largely selfish reasons. On the other hand, Talia is far worse than he is (Malcolm says that he could never even come close to her level of villainy), the fact that the Undertaking fails means it doesn't hit as hard as in canon, and he truly does love his sons (a fact even Barry acknowledges), saving Tommy's life with Lazarus water and going after the Green Arrow under the solid logic that the Green Arrow poses a threat to Oliver's life - plus, he becomes outright disgusted with himself when he learns that he stranded his own son on Lian Yu and only continues because I've Come Too Far. He's a pure Anti-Villain and a genuine Well-Intentioned Extremist (unlike canon), and when the likes of Talia and Zoom are running around, he comes off light by comparison.
Final verdict?
I give him a yes - what about you?
Thank you STAR. Day had gotten somewhat slow. Malcolm.
to Malcolm
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Yes to Malcolm.
Before dealing with Madara's write-up, I have a quote to propose :
Do you guys think it fits?
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
I hate spoilers
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
That's a sick burn.
Any more thoughts on my proposed Treat With Caution addition?