During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Jesus, 43110, that's a lot you've been doing. Like, geez.
Also, the David Cameron pot hole doesn't even really make sense. "Troll" might be more appropriate. And calling Cameron an MB is politically weird.
I think we all agree Magnificent Bastards exist in real life - some would say Complete Monsters don't but I ain't so sure - but it is wise not to label real people as so, though it ain't as offensive as calling them a Smug Snake - which is super Truth in Television.
...I gotta stop procrastinating on my EP works.
Cool, I'll purge. As for the real life thing? While I'm more willing to hear fictional portrayals of real life people since this trope isn't as offensive as CM, I'd really rather not go down the route of labelling an IRL person an MB themselves, since there is a villainous element to it at the end of the day and I fear the trouble we'd get from doing so.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
I've seen Future Diary, there may be an argument for Mur-mur but my first instinct is to say no one counts.
Edited by 43110 on Sep 19th 2018 at 5:49:04 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
You really think Mur Mur might have a shot?
Also considering purging these
From Future Diary
- Magnificent Bastard: Several of the characters, which is to be expected given the nature of the premise. Special mention goes to Yuno.
No context.
From Vampire Knight
- Magnificent Bastard: Rido and Kaname
No context and Rido is already approved as a CM (and is also a rapist)
Anyother opinions on wether Yuno and/or Kanime might qualify?
Edited by G-Editor on Sep 19th 2018 at 1:15:41 AM
Has anyone seen Hustle? There's a ZCE on the YMMV tab, but from the general concept of the show, it sounds like a breeding ground for MBs.
- Magnificent Bastard: The main characters don't qualify, because they're the protagonists. However, Joseph Whittaker-Wright III certainly does.
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
Cutting these examples from Detective Conan due to a lack of context:
- First of all, "Ano Kata".
- His operative Gin is heading towards this.
- Narumi/Seiji from the Moonlight Sonata case, who gets away with everything through suicide.
Since we're trying to help 43 out, from Kirby:
- Magnificent Bastard:
- Without a doubt, Meta Knight. In fact, even leaning more towards being a Guile Hero in Kirby: Right Back at Ya!.
- Marx, who arranged for the sun and moon to fight and used Kirby to summon Nova so he could wish to take over Popstar.
- Yin-Yarn lands himself right in this spot since he demonstrates his plan to take over Dream Land by having his fake Waddle Dees capture the real ones and then capturing and brainwashing Dedede and Meta Knight and sending them to Patch Land to fight Kirby under his control so he can have Dream Land all to himself. And, unlike most other villains, Yin-Yarn actually succeeds in taking over Dream Land; Kirby has to save it by defeating him.
- Magolor manages to trick four people into traveling to all five corners of Pop Star, defeating a dragon on a distant volcanic planet, and giving him massive power as a result.
- Queen Sectonia, who saw through the Floralia residents' plan to bring the hero of Dream Land to their rescue and sent Taranza to kidnap him in order to keep him from interfering with her plan to rule Popstar as its goddess, even though she didn't count on him kidnapping Dedede instead of Kirby like she wanted him to.
Magolor is a doozy and could easily skip straight to the rewrite. Meta Knight only has one incarnation where he's properly villainous (Super Star), so he could keep there, but not as a whole. Marx and Yin-Yarn have poor characterization and are mostly memorable due to their excellent character designs and boss fights, so they're out. Sectonia's nuts beyond belief and gets a pretty nasty Villainous Breakdown, so she doesn't cut it.
From Borderlands 2:
- Magnificent Bastard: Handsome Jack is a lot more competent than he first appears.
It wouldn't be a stretch to call Jack the polar opposite of what we're looking for here. His entire appeal as a character is that he's an uncharismatic douchebag.
From BlazBlue: Calamity Trigger and BlazBlue: Continuum Shift:
- Magnificent Bitch: Rachel. Truly proves to be the most powerful of the cast and shows what a piece of cake it is to use the Tsukuyomi unit to defend Kagutsuchi from Take-mikazuchi's threat, all without ever feeling like a Mary Sue or even a Villain Sue. Even in BlazBlue: Continuum Shift she continues to be as magnificent as she is in Calamity Trigger, she just leans a lot further towards being a Guile Heroine.
- Magnificent Bastard: Anything bad that happens in the story of BlazBlue, especially in Continuum Shift, can be traced to none other than Terumi himself. Bonus points for being a Japanese take on The Joker... Although as of late, his tendency to not keep his cool in case his plans just went off the rails even in a slight way makes him less magnificent to some.
- Relius also. Completely suckering Sector Seven when he started making Ignis is one of such moment of magnificent bastardry to behold.
Pretty sure we went over this. Relius has the a-okay but Terumi's fuck-awful and Rachel isn't anywhere close to bad enough.
From Black Swan:
- Magnificent Bastard: One interpretation of Thomas.
Thomas isn't a bad guy at all. The whole point of the movie is that our heroine is mentally ill and hallucinating that everybody's out to get her.
From Disgaea: Hour of Darkness:
- Magnificent Bastard: Seraph Lamington. Leans further towards being a Guile Hero, of course.
It's been a looooong time since I played this but I don't think he ever really reaches Bastard territory.
Edited by DocSharp on Sep 19th 2018 at 3:10:04 AM
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Relius? I believe he was approved thanks to G.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
If the example says he's a Guile Hero, it should be cut.
A villain can be redeemed and still be a MB right?
Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.
I'm fine with it, provided they have a substantial stint as a baddie and the time as a Bastard isn't seperate from the time where they're Magnificent.
Also thanks for the help purging, much appreciated!
Edited by 43110 on Sep 19th 2018 at 8:36:42 AM
The Unknown Unknown
Yeah. I myself proposed one or two villains who got redeemed.
Any objections to my Richter draft?
Negative, looks good!
RIP Toriyama
First of all, thanks to all for the condolences, means a lot.
Secondly, I'm back on the thread for now, and am starting a bit of a multi-proposal... I'm going to be going through more Marvel animation and video games in the coming weeks, as well as some G.I. Joe proposals, so I'm gonna go ahead and add some of those to my to-do list.
To kick us off? A villain from a childhood favorite...
What's the work?
Spider Man is a 2000 action game based around our friendly webhead, of course. Narrated by Stan Lee, starring some surprising voice actors, and featuring Venom ordering Spider-Man to "Surf the web", this game is a Narm Charm classic, all the way down to its main villain.
Who is Doctor Octopus? What makes him a candidate?
Dr. Otto Octavius, aka "Doctor Octopus/Doc Ock", is a genius scientist with four metallic tentacle arms potruding from his back, a strange-ass accent pouring out of his mouth, and a plan for VORLD DOMINATION!
Introduced hosting a press conference, having convinced society he has turned his back on his villainous ways and now has built a new device to help humanity, Octavius hires the master of illusion Mysterio to attack the press conference and steal his unveiled device while dressed as Spider-Man, framing the hero for the theft and making Octavius look like the victim.
Then using said stolen device to power his new technology alongside his Dragon, the mad psychopath Carnage, Octavius dons his "Doctor Octopus" persona and unleashes a chemical compound throughout New York that slowly seeps into the population's bodies to prepare them...for symbiosis.
Using Carnage's symbiote, Ock begins mass cloning symbiotes, sentient alien creatures that Ock plans to use to infect and take control of all of New York...before moving onto America...and then the world, until all of humanity is under the control of the symbiotes, at which point Ock proclaims his motive:
"It's a new world! Humanity needs the skills that my technology will bring, symbiosis is the only way! We will work as one, a perfect world order! Those who do not share my vision, will be CRUSHED by it!"
Stealing the rest of the technology he requires while Spidey is distracted by the police hunting him, leaving Rhino to deal with Spider-Man when he arrives late to the robbery, Ock then kidnaps the webhead's partner Black Cat, locking her away to throw a wrench into Spider-Man's attempts at thwarting him.
As Spider-Man eventually finds Ock's lair solely through tracking down and interrogating Mysterio, Ock activates his base defenses, powerful turrets and siccing countless symbiotes onto the hero to stall him as he prepares to unleash the symbiotes, testing them by unleashing them onto the Daily Bugle.
As Spider-Man finally confronts the mad doctor, Ock duels the hero using a forcefield and his tentacles, ultimately being beaten when Spidey shuts down the field and wails on Ock enough that he goes down hard.
Even after defeat, Ock's genius planning continues to be shown, as it is revealed he created a sonic machine to be used on Carnage or the other symbiotes should they try to turn on him, and, in a final fight, Ock combines with a symbiote to chase Spider-Man down and try to slaughter him.
In the end, Ock is last seen sharing a cell with the other defeated villains of the games, banging his head against the cell bars in irritation at the idiocy of his "comrades".
Is Ock a Chessmaster? Manipulative Bastard? Capable of Xanatos Speed Chess?
Ayup. Ock plots out the whole A-plot of the game, seemingly "reforming" himself and convincing the world he's gone straight only to frame Spider-Man, pull off several successful heists, and kidnap Black Cat all under the hero's nose before planning to create a human-symbiote planet under his rule so he can lead humanity into a "new world." He stays one step ahead of Spidey throughout the game, and even when his plans begin to come into danger, he quickly kidnaps Black Cat to throw Spidey off.
How much of a Bastard is he? Is he charming? Does he have any traits worthy of respect?
Ock's a nasty cookie, threatening to turn the world into his controlled servants, framing Spidey and siccing police on him, and unleashing various villains to cause damage and try to kill Spidey.
Overall however, seeing as this IS a game made with younger children in mind, Ock never comes close to being too vile, and his exploits are treated with a cheesy, charming tone about them.
Now, for personality...Ock doesn't get TOO much screentime, but in that time he gets a firmly established personality of believing himself to be a helper of humankind who can bring humanity into a brighter future with his technology, and hopes to bring about "symbiosis" to achieve this "perfect order."
During his boss fight he gets a few boastful statements to him (Like "Now I will crush you like the insect you are for daring to thwart my plans!"), when beaten his final words are literally "No, I am...defeated!", and his final scene is him expressing irritation at his partners' incessant babblings, but again, I can't really hold this against him seeing as how it's all just part of the cheesy, Large Ham, over-the-top style of the game. Ock never has a serious moment of a Villainous Breakdown, never dips into smug or unlikeable territory, and really is just a FUN, over the top as hell example of an MB for me.
His final scene is kinda like Im Surrounded By Idiots, but it's again portrayed more like a humorous reaction from the villain rather than any sort of humiliating breakdown or some such.
Final Verdict?
No he's not a genius with tapestries of plans to him or a charm that makes him more likeable than the hero, but given the setting, the age range of these games, and the minimalist story? I think Ock passes for what he is: A genius Large Ham designed to be a smart, respectable baddie for our webhead to go up against in a game for a young audience.
I say Keeper. I can see it if some disagree, so I'm not saying he's a firm one or anything and I won't die fighting for him, but I personally think he's a solid Keep.
Edited by Ravok on Sep 19th 2018 at 1:08:45 PM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
I'll roll with Ock
At first I thought you meant the Doc Ock from the PS 1 game where he turned into a mindless freaky as hell monster using the Carnage symbiote. I never did beat that as that creature scared me more than any video game character has up to this point. Regardless I'll give him a yes considering the setting.
Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.
RIP Toriyama
Uh, that is the one I'm talking about, lol.
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.Oh really? Well I approve even more. It sounded familiar. Seriously though why make something so scary in a game you know will be played by kids. But I digress.
Monster Ock was freaky enough, but could you imagine if he was actually a mainstay character like in the movies? They could do a lot with his design.
Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.
Goku Black
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
ock
Good to have you back Ravok!
To Doc Ock
Say does comic book doc ock count?
Edited by G-Editor on Sep 20th 2018 at 9:14:10 AM
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
sure on doc ock and welcome back ravok.
Btw, any marvel candidates that are on your mind for mb? @Ravok How about Dr. Strange as a candidate.
Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Sep 21st 2018 at 2:18:45 AM
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Goku Black
If were talking individual runs like Daredevil Mysterio sure I could see him counting. In general though Otto is a genuine Smug Snake who lets his arrogance screw him over.
Edited by miraculous on Sep 20th 2018 at 2:45:30 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Dr Octopusman, but Ravok, I must say I am disappointed you did not mention his most heinous crime:
Forcing Black Cat to dance in the game's What If Mode.
Speaking of Spoderman, I will be leading discussion on the PS 4 game tomorrow.
Yes to Ock
I think from these Hugo Strange from The Batman is worth an ep IMO. He's a cm sure but nothing he does really moves into gross territory and the emphasis was always more on how intelligent he was rather than how despicable he was,
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."