During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Yes to Steven.
Riley is correct, the rapey undertones sure as hell don't help when I look at a character's finishers and go "Well this kinda shit looks exactly in line with what the character is like" but the cardinal issue was his creepy want to have the Earth wiped out and populated by dolls (including his wife and daughter IIRC) for him was just too gross to say he could be magnificent.
As for CMs there future? It's hard to say. Intentional ones maybe and I'll concede from the perspective of trope requirements there are far fewer moving parts with it compared to MB but can we say for certain that Palpatine or Doflammingo aren't supposed to be cool? They're far too evil for MB but there's a lot of emphasis on how smart they are to the point I can't for sure say the intent was just to be a blackhole of evil without any attempt to impress the audience. Back on Vect: he's charming, he's brilliant, he's calm and he's collected but his goal being "Imma spread my murder-rape-torture society across the cosmos" is just too much to have let him stay as a crossover.
Also ~Melinda can I have Clay's writeup please?
Edited by 43110 on Mar 5th 2021 at 7:57:51 AM
There are some things the EP skipped over. I do love the movie, but I'm not kidding when Steven really humiliates himself for plans. When first escaping the hospital he jumps off the roof and aims for a garbage can... and blatantly misses. And while I agree his suicide attempt is very funny it's played up as very pathetic. He gets caught a second time because he blatantly overspends, tipping off his colleagues that somethings up. He's panicking (albeit not falling to pieces) when he's caught a second time and Phillip runs off furious. I do think I'm leaning ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
, but that is something to note.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
You didn't go over him panicking when he came back to the house. I just thought the context behind that needed to be gone over.
Edited by jjjj2 on Mar 5th 2021 at 8:07:55 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Goku Black
Well it does sound like he recovers enough to try an escape later for me to say it's not too bad.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
The only part of that I didn't mention was him missing the garbage when jumping off the roof.
I mentioned that he panics in stressful situations.
Edited by Trashman91 on Mar 5th 2021 at 5:12:14 AM
I agree with j in wishing that things could have been more fleshed out for the sake of accuracy if things were incorrect but going off what both you and Trash have written on the character I'm gonna keep my yeah.
The wifi here sucks
Just noting as well: Relius didn't have his wife and daughter as an incidental part of the dollmaking genocide plan... he started with them, murdering them and turning them into dolls as his first test subjects.
Dude's Shou Tucker levels of depraved and while awesome doesn't have the balance to match up that level of evil.
Edit: No prob Papyru, it's just a thing I've gone through a few times and I'd really like the correct reasoning to be on the sandbox. Keeping my yea for Steven.
Edited by Riley1sCool on Mar 5th 2021 at 5:04:01 AM
All good man, we're pulling a massive amount of old cases and it's hard to get all the details straight.
Goku Black
Has anyone read Magical Girl Spec-Ops Asuka here. I was thinking of bringing up the Big Bad Queen but am still reading it fully before I do it. Was just curious if Anyone else is familiar with it to see what they say ?
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
I've read it, and personally I think she's a tad too heinous with some of her actions.
Goku Black
Oh well. Hey I'm quite enjoying it. Who knows maybe I'll find someone. Still early days.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Yes to Steven.
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
Steven.
to Steven Jay Russell. Always nice to have LGBTQ keepers (Fox, my most recent proposal, is bisexual per Word of Gay).
Here are the write-ups for both Fox and Macbeth:
- Fox, born Janine Renard, is David Xanatos' wife and partner in crime. A savvy, cunning mercenary, Fox aids her husband's schemes out of their genuine love and admiration for each other. Introduced as the leader of the Pack, Fox quickly proves herself to be head and shoulders above her teammates, manipulating them on Xanatos' behalf before leaving the group during a jailbreak to ensure her own early parole. Equally capable while operating on her own initiative, Fox orchestrates a near-successful scheme to usurp her noble father's company, despite the fact that he'd simply give it to her if she asked, preferring fun over her father's sense of honor, maintaining a positive relationship with him despite this. When Oberon attempts to abduct her newborn son, Fox proves willing to fight tooth and nail to defend him, even summoning a burst of magical power that temporarily stuns the Lord of Avalon. Pairing her skills with a mischievous cunning and genuine affection for her family, Fox proves herself as every bit her husband's equal.
- Macbeth mac Findlaech is an immortal Scottish king magically linked to Demona. Losing his kingdom and his family to his former ally's treachery, Macbeth sets out to avenge himself upon her, as well as to use the terms of their immortality— that neither can die unless one kills the other, in which case, both die— to end his own painful life as well. Considered one of the greatest warriors alive by the modern day, Macbeth combines tactical acumen, combat skill, and advanced technology to stand his ground against far stronger opponents. Honorable, yet ruthless, Macbeth proves that he wouldn't attack his enemies while they were helpless, but can easily outfight them in battle. Initially willing to take the gargoyles hostage or allow them to die if it means he can kill Demona, Macbeth gradually rediscovers his will to live, becoming the clan's ally. Later seeking a new purpose, Macbeth tries to usurp King Arthur as the Once and Future King, only to show humility when Arthur bests him, declining an offer to serve Arthur, but promising his aid when needed. One of the show's most sympathetic, yet capable villains, Macbeth is one of the Manhattan Clan's finest foes, never losing his sense of honor or admirable edge.
Oh, and another ex-MB would be Clifford DeVoe, who was cut, I believe, because he was too loathsome.
Edited by DeCarta on Mar 5th 2021 at 9:55:59 AM
It is better to write for yourself and have no public than to write for the public and have no self.
Goku Black
Macbeth for his name ?
Where do they go in the tree.
Edited by miraculous on Mar 5th 2021 at 5:27:24 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
I'd go with Historical Domain Character, since the show's Macbeth is based more on the historical king than the character from Shakespeare's play.
As for where they go on the tree, that's a bit tricky; Puck is already a keeper, and was introduced as Puck after both Fox and Macbeth, but he'd been appearing in his guise as Owen since the second episode. Puck's write-up concerns his actions as his true identity, for what that's worth, so the question comes to whether he's counted from Owen's first appearance (in which case he'd be before Fox and Macbeth) or Puck's (in which case, he'd come after both of them, but before Thailog).
Thought of him right after DeVoe, actually. They each make a pretty decent case study in how to do "close, but no cigar" in this trope.
Edited by DeCarta on Mar 5th 2021 at 10:06:31 AM
It is better to write for yourself and have no public than to write for the public and have no self.
Goku Black
Oh hey for the arrowverse their was also Prometheus who was removed for being kind of an unhinged nut.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Hey. I am not back for good, at least not yet. But I needed to be cheered up, and figured that this would help. Thanks to future for the help, and he will be doing the write up.
What is the work?
Into the Woods is a 2014 Disney adaptation of the musical that first began back in 1986. It's about the kingdom in which the fairly tale characters all come together in a mesh of craziness that brings their stories together and even expands upon them. The first half of the movie is centered around breaking a magic spell while the second involves around dealing with a new threat to the kingdom and both involve our candidate being involved.
Who is she and what has she done?
The Witch, played by the greatest actress of all time Meryl Streep, was the neighbor of the Baker's father, who tried to steal greens from her garden to feed his pregnant wife. Taking their baby as payment and cursing his son to never have a child, but not after being cursed with ugliness due to said father stealing her magic beans. Desiring her youth back, she promises the Baker and his wife that she will lift the curse if they get her the four ingredients for a potion, due to her not being able to touch them. She sends them after a cow as white as milk, a cape as red as blood, hair as yellow as corn, and a slipper as pure as gold. The must find in three days, at a blue moon that only happens every hundred years. While keeping an eye on them, and guiding them along, she keeps checking on the Baker's sister Rapunzel who she keeps locked in a tower.
When she discovers a prince is visiting Rapunzel, the Witch blinds him, and hides Rapunzel in a swamp. On the third night, she sees through the Baker's attempts to use a flour covered cow to replace the dead white cow, and revives it. Getting them to feed the cow the other stuff. She uses the potion to turn into a younger and sexier witch, and keeps her promise to give them a child. When a giantess comes for Jack to get revenge for him killing her husband, the Witch agrees to get him. Trying to get Rapunzel come with her, but being rejected, the witch finds Jack and brings him to the others. Raging at the others for playing the blame game with each other and her, the Witch begs her mother who cursed the beans to curse her again. She gets turned into tar, and manages to unintentionally play a role in beating the giantess. As the giantess foot get's stuck in the tar.
Smart? Charming? Think on her feet?
She sees through the Baker's attempt to trick, manages to concoct a plan to get her youth back, and manages to keep the giantess to busy to buy them time. She manages to come up with a plan to keep the Prince away from Rapunzel rather quickly. Does that make her smart enough? You make the call. Charm? I am unsure about. She is fun to watch, however that could just be the performance of Streep. She does keep her promise to the Baker and his wife., but she can be a bit petty. However, the film doesn't really focus on her pettiness, and instead focusses on her Large Ham qualities. So I don't know how to judge this.
Bastard? Too much?
She curses the Baker due to his father's actions, keeps Rapunzel locked in a tower, and blinds a prince for visiting her. She is also ready to hand over Jack to the giantess, and when she has had it with them blaming each other she kills herself. However, she cares about her daughter figure, and tries to keep her safe from the giantess. She tries to hand Jack over because that is the only way to stop the giantess. She keeps her promise to the Baker. She also rightfully calls the others out for being more interested in blame then actually doing something.
Other factors?
She kills herself at the end, but it's not really focused on. And her anger is played for more rightful annoyance then her being a coward, or having a breakdown. Also I have never seen the play, so I don't know if there are any major differences.
Conclusion?
Unsure, but this movie did cheer me up a bit. As did writing this. Also again future will be doing the write up if she passes. So thanks again future.
Edited by Bullman on Mar 5th 2021 at 7:57:29 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Gotta love Jaws!
Goku Black
Also hey I may have another version of snow whites wicked queen for you guys here soon. From a trilogy I've been reading.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
to Steven and the Witch
The Moron
The movie version definitely focuses more on the cool factor of the character than the stage show does - in the musical, she's insanely petty. Yes to Movie!Witch.
Also, potholed the Gargoyles entries in the drafts.
Yeah, Repunzel survives the movie - that's from the stage show.
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Mar 5th 2021 at 9:06:31 AM
Witch
Found this on her character page
- Villainous Breakdown: After Rapunzel's death, quickly leading to "Last Midnight" and her subsequent abandonment of the rest of the cast.
Probably talking about the stage version.
Edited by nwotyzal on Mar 5th 2021 at 6:03:50 AM
Appreciated, though I wouldn't call Fox leaving the Pack a Heel–Face Turn (she never really pulls one), and the middle part of Macbeth's name is meant to be lowercase.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
to Steven.
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"