During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Evolution Requires Sacrifice.
Switching to abstain on Sun-Li.
"I SHALL UNIFY THE WORLD! FROM ALPHA TO OMEGA... BOW DOWN TO ME!!!"
Goku Black
I'm cool keeping him tbh.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Hauer, Raoh, Lighty's short story lady, Adam, Umbra, Gage, Gabby, and... the mouse!!!!!!
The Unknown Unknown
Cut John and yes to Umbra. As for Sun, no familiarity with the work, so I'll just personally abstain.
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
Goku Black
You know two I was thinking of doing. Jeremy and Elena Danvers. They keep guard over and stop Mutt werewolfs w/o could endanger the existence of the supernatural.
Both good guys sure. But they did say let Karl be fine for years despite the whole killing thing and they massacred Winsloe's whole organisation which okay Winsloe is a monster who had to coming but the work does state while they need to do this to ensure nothing come off it to the outside world. That not every one of his mooks was an assjole victim.
What do you think ?
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Vote to keep Sun-Li. While he is listed as a CM he doesn’t seem to delve into deplorable villainy that would take away from his magnificence
Here is this. Gonna put it in the drafts before the weather gets any worse.
The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind: Master Aryon is the last truly sane Telvanni councilor who seeks to save his xenophobic and isolationist Great House from their own self destructive ways. Seeking to replace the self serving Archmagister, he grooms the Nerevarine to one day take the position by using them as his agent and guiding them into becoming a powerful sorcerer. In the meantime, Aryon secures his own position by gathering other mages as allies through skilled diplomacy or impromptu rescue and makes the Telvanni stronger by ordering the assassination of key targets in rival Great Houses and leveraging council support to turn Imperial laws to his advantage. Once his powerbase is secure, Aryon calls on the now magically skilled Nerevarine to challenge and replace the current Archmagister to finally have a leader who shares his values and secure the future of Great House Telvanni.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Sounds like they could mir if they're fine or accepting of decent people being hurt in their manipulations, even if they are taking down a psychopath! Now after stating my ardent support of Sun Li here's a crossover I'm not feeling so hot about:
This fan work doesn't have a page but...
- Un futur d'enfer: XANA surpasses its canon counterpart in sheer villainy and brilliance. Keeping William under its control, XANA uses him to kill Franz Hopper before he gives energy to the multi-agent program. In its attempt to Take Over the World, XANA launches an offensive on the world and sent its army on Earth, William included. During the war, XANA leaks the location of a factory, knowing that Ulrich, Odd and their team will destroy it. XANA then sneak attack the heroes with Kankrelats, damaging their bomb and forcing Ulrich to detonate it manually at the cost of his own life. When the Resistance uses one of XANA's robots to attack one of its bases, XANA identifies the mole and uses its signal to sent William attack the resistance. When the Resistance got more victories, XANA spread a virus, the Eradicator, killing several people. Later on, XANA also creates a giant robot it controls directly, invulnerable to any human technology, allowing it to destroy several enemy bases. In the bad ending, XANA and XANA-William remember everything that happened in the future and killed Yumi, the only other person who knew about it, cementing their future victory.
Now the same character's CM entry:
- Un futur d'enfer: XANA surpasses its canon counterpart in sheer depravity. Managing to keep William under its control, XANA uses him to kill Franz Hopper and starts an invasion on the real world a week later, killing millions in only a few days. When the world unites against it, XANA sends the brainwashed William to Earth, whereupon he proceeds to slaughter 10 soldiers per day. Years later, taking 20 soldiers hostage, XANA interrogates each soldier, killing anyone who doesn't answer. XANA later lures Ulrich, Odd and their team to one of its factories, where Kankrelats fires on boxes containing explosives, killing several soldiers. Civilians aren't spared, as XANA attacks a base and anyone inside of it indiscriminately, killing Odd and indirectly Sam. It goes even farther, spreading a deadly virus, the Eradicator, and killing soldiers and civilians alike, including Aelita and Jérémie. When a teenage Yumi reappears 100 years after Franz Hopper's death, XANA tries to kill her to prevent her from going back to the past. In the bad ending, when Yumi manages to use a hundred-year Return to the Past, XANA remembers everything from the future and kills Yumi, securing its victory.
Okay, so... XANA might be smart but it "surpasses its canon counterpart in sheer depravity"? It slaughters people to take over the planet and uses a brainwashed slave and forces him to execute hostage soldiers? Luring people into a base to blow up civilians alongside its targets? Unleashing a plague virus and then getting a roflstomp victory against this Yumi person to seemingly win a Downer Ending?
This character—much like the original—sounds disgusting. It might be a Chessmaster but I can't glean anything magnificent about the lows being stooped to here. We cool with losing this?
Evolution Requires Sacrifice.
Gotta love Jaws!
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Bizarre for it to say "surpasses in sheer villainy" in the MB writeup too. Leaning cut on Xana.
Edited by Amanofmanyinterests on Feb 14th 2021 at 4:33:14 AM
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
Goku Black
That and theirs nothing I dunno that magnificent sounding personality wise from the write-up honestly. Fine with cutting. Lol.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Cut XANA.
The Draftsman of Doom
Cut Xanax.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
The Unknown Unknown
~Georgie Enkoom, that's your proposal. Anything to vouch for and is he really a cut?
Hope I did that tag thing right.
EDIT: I think I got it now. ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
EDIT 2: ![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Gotcha. Thanks.
Edited by erazor0707 on Feb 14th 2021 at 8:07:28 AM
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
Goku Black
Uh erazor think those are the Wrong symbols to use as uh....
And thank you for fixing it.
Edited by miraculous on Feb 14th 2021 at 4:42:17 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Yeah I'd like Georgie's stance, before we cut. Keep Sun Li.
You don't want [==] you want {{}}. Further Edit: I don't think you do cause it should be hyperlinking, which it's not doing. Further Further Edit: Since his trope name is two words, you just want to treat it as a wikiword.
Okay you know what ~Georgie Enkoom, we have a potential cut we'd like you to go over.
Edited by jjjj2 on Feb 14th 2021 at 7:49:12 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
What j said. I’m also fine with waiting on Georgie before we action it.
I’ll abstain on Xana until Georgie says his piece on him given that he posted him on both threads
Edited by username2527 on Feb 14th 2021 at 5:04:18 AM
Evolution Requires Sacrifice.
I PM'd Georgie to come see the reaction to the approved MB cut.
"I SHALL UNIFY THE WORLD! FROM ALPHA TO OMEGA... BOW DOWN TO ME!!!"
With the relationship with Kermit and Piggy, this still works for Valentine's (yesterday’s kind of did too):
What is the work?
Muppets Most Wanted is the 2014 sequel to 2011’s The Muppets, in which...the Muppets...got back together after so many years apart and tried to save their studio from being repossessed and demolished. This film involves the Muppets traveling Europe as part of a tour and getting pulled into an international plot. Of course at the center of this, is a couple of international criminals who are much closer to them than they think.
Who are they and what have they done?
Constantine the World's Most Dangerous Frog is a notorious criminal who it turns out bares a strong resemblance to Kermit and his number two is Dominic "The Lemur" Badguy (pronounced Bad-gee), who claims to be a talent agent. Escaping from his cell in a Siberian prison by blow torching his way out, Constantine single-handedly takes out multiple guards, pushes a button that frees all prisoners from their cells and then blows the place up while it’s in chaos. He then contacts Dominic to let him know he’s on his way while Dominic is enacting the other part of the plan by having the Muppets hire him as their manager so he can arrange for them to be on a world tour (and Constantine also blows up the phone booth for good measure too).
Dominic arranges for the Muppets to go to Berlin where after he has Kermit go for a walk to clear his head and Constantine is there to attack him and put a mole on his face so that Kermit is sent back to the Gulag in his place. Constantine then puts a green coverup over his own mole and takes Kermit’s place with the Muppets with Dominic covering for him (with the plan to set the Muppets up for their crimes and make off with the goods).
Dominic puts the others off about Constantine’s voice by saying that "Kermit" has a cold and the two steal paintings from the museum (one specifically they need to lead them to the next target) while Dominic leaves a Lemur coin as a calling card at each scene (and maybe as a misdirect too). After initially fainting twice due to either stage fright or Vertigo (could also be acrophobia if it’s heights) when trying to perform as Kermit on stage one night, Constantine learns to conquer those fears and allows the Muppets to do their unabridged acts and performances (which cause chaos or boredom) while Dominic gives free tickets to make the shows seem sold out and bribes critic for good reviews too. When in Madrid, the two then destroy the busts in order to find the key necessary to get Captain Blood’s locket in Dublin.
Animal is the only one who is onto Constantine from the beginning while Walter gradually becomes suspicious of both Constantine and Dominic and eventually shares this info with Fozzie Bear and they confirm it together. When confronted by Constantine, they’re saved by Animal and flee to Siberia to rescue Kermit while Constantine and Dominic tell everyone Fozzie and Walter quit (while also planting a rubber chicken as evidence at one scene to tie Fozzie to it too). While Kermit’s been imprisoned, he briefly learns about how much respect and authority Constantine commanded over the other prisoners.
At one point when Constantine snubs Miss Piggy, at Dominic’s urging, he gets back into her good graces by singing and dancing with her about how "I'll Get You What You Want." He eventually proposes and declares he’s gonna marry her in London (where the final target, the Crown Jewels are) while also breaking to the Muppets that they’re all gonna break up after the wedding too. Constantine once he and Dominic get the Crown Jewels will also blow up Piggy after the wedding while once again, making sure the Muppets take the blame for the thefts.
Kermit escapes thanks to the three who come to help him and they make their way to London, learning of Constantine’s other plans in the process. While the wedding is in progress, Constantine has Dominic go steal the jewels with a bunch of Muppet baby thieves (not the Muppet Babies you’re thinking of). Dominic dodges the lasers and puts the watch in the right place to unlock all the jewels and turn the security system off.
Kermit is able to expose Constantine and stop the wedding, during which Constantine activates the bomb in Piggy’s ring. The Muppets then dispose of the ring in the river, Constantine attempts to escape with Piggy in the helicopter. When Dominic is there in his lemur costume and announces his planned betrayal, Constantine pushes a button and blows him out of the helicopter.
Kermit and the others stop the helicopter as it’s taking off (with the others using the Muppet Ladder). Constantine threatens Kermit with a gun, but then Piggy breaks free and beats Constantine to a pulp with Kermit delivering one final hit. Both Constantine and Dominic are then apprehended by the police and taken to the gulag.
Are they magnificent?
All the thefts they pulled off with the shows as distractions and misdirections to the Muppets and Constantine’s escape from the prison do speak to that. Constantine replacing Kermit and all the Muppets except Animal not realizing it sooner seems maybe a little too far-fetched (and maybe doesn’t speak to the intelligence of the Muppets either), but my argument to that though is that they have no reason to think he’s not Kermit (and even admit they were probably willing to accept him as Kermit just because he gave them more freedom). Constantine with his flashiness and charm is able to help sell the charade even if he is different from how Kermit usually is (especially to Piggy) with Dominic covering other avenues in the process and given their seen in the prisoner during the final number, they overcome the defeat and take it with good nature I suppose (even if Constantine seems a little annoyed though).
Bastards? Too much?
Dominic himself certainly never goes too far while still taking part in everything and while Constantine’s arrogant and he’s not one to shy away from violence (and that might contrast him compared to most other Muppets villains, but I’ve only seen so many of the movies though I admit), he still isn’t completely out of tone being comedically over-the-top to a degree while also being a threat. There’s his condescending reactions to Dominic as well, but I attribute that to Constantine keeping him as the underling and also, just wanting everything for himself because that’s the way he is about it (and doesn’t harm Dominic either, just betrays him). There’s also planning to blow up Piggy after marrying her, but again, it’s simply a means of Constantine wishing to successfully execute his plan rather than be cruel for the sake of being cruel because it’s quickest means to get her out of the way (and Dominic with his betrayal is simply seeking to make a name for himself as the best criminal in the world instead).
Verdict?
I personally say , but if you guys want to vote only one up though, that’s fine.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Feb 18th 2021 at 3:49:51 AM
Goku Black
Sure to Constantine
Leaning no on Dominic because of this. If his big betrayal is some thing his boss anticipated and thwarts this easily.
- Big Bad Wannabe: Dominic Badguy , AKA "The Lemur." His attempt to betray Constantine was seen a mile away, especially by Constantine and his lemur theme (with full costume) earned him nothing but mockery.
- Curb-Stomp Battle: Constantine vs Dominic/The Lemur
Sounds like he's totally overshadowed by his boss.
Edited by miraculous on Feb 14th 2021 at 6:16:20 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Gotta concur with mir there.
I guess I'll swtich to Sun staying, but I'm not that familiar with the game.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."