During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Shit. Been off my game. I think Timber found a few and we agreed on one but I don’t think it got posted.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Catwoman
Yes to Catwoman.
Btw a lengthier one:
- Aladdin: Starting off as a petty, high-functioning Smug Snake, Jafar manages to evolve into a flawless schemer by the events of the sequel. An Evil Sorcerer who acts as grand vizier to the Sultan of Agrabah, Jafar schemes to take over the throne from the Sultan by retrieving the lamp with the Genie in it that can grant wishes. Seemingly, Jafar tried to convince the Sultan to let him marry Princess Jasmine so he can inherit it by marriage. Despite Aladdin, posing as Prince Ali, ruining this plan as well, Jafar deduces his real identity and steals the lamp from him, using it to make himself the most powerful sorcerer in the world. Although being tricked by Aladdin to become a Djinn and be trapped in the lamp, Jafar, returns after getting freed by the thief Abis Mal, going back to plotting to take over Agrabah and get revenge on Aladdin. He captures all of Aladdin's allies, frames him for the Sultan's murder, and pulls it off without Aladdin even realizing he's back. Along the way, Jafar tempers his arrogance and anger with enough cunning and charisma to back up his ego, and manages to be entertaining in his remorseless villainy thanks to a good heaping of Evil Is Hammy and style.
What's wrong with just?:
- Aladdin: The Return of Jafar: Jafar manages to evolve into a flawless schemer by the events of this sequel to the original film. An Evil Sorcerer who acts as grand vizier to the Sultan of Agrabah, Jafar schemes to take over the throne from the Sultan by retrieving the lamp with the Genie in it that can grant wishes. Seemingly, Jafar tried to convince the Sultan to let him marry Princess Jasmine so he can inherit it by marriage. Despite Aladdin, posing as Prince Ali, ruining this plan as well, Jafar deduces his real identity and steals the lamp from him, using it to make himself the most powerful sorcerer in the world. Although being tricked by Aladdin to become a Djinn and be trapped in the lamp, Jafar, returns after getting freed by the thief Abis Mal, going back to plotting to take over Agrabah and get revenge on Aladdin. He captures all of Aladdin's allies, frames him for the Sultan's murder, and pulls it off without Aladdin even realizing he's back.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I like it, but it mostly describes his actions in the original film (where he explicitly does not count) more than Return of Jafar.
Edited by PurpleEyedGuma on Nov 28th 2020 at 9:58:51 AM
Someone wanna rewrite? Same person who did the Pony candidate we just cut so I'm not too keen to ask them to redo it.
Btw I'm gonna start moving stuff on drafts to sandbox pages as a heads up for my pothole people so I don't go insane on Friday submission days and end up too burnt out to do them.
Edited by 43110 on Nov 28th 2020 at 10:07:49 AM
@Purple I don’t think that should matter since it’s the same continuity and thus his villainy being highlighted in both is appropriate.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Nov 28th 2020 at 8:02:30 AM
But the entry is ostensibly just for Return of Jafar.
... how does it make sense to devote the writeup to his tenure as a Smug Snake future? Guma raises a valid point, I care about when he's a Magnificent Bastard not when he's just a Bastard.
We don't have Haman Khan under Zeta Gundam to go "Btw she works with Scirocco, isn't that cool!"
Edited by 43110 on Nov 28th 2020 at 10:25:45 AM
I figured him becoming it in the second one negated his smugness in the first one since it doesn’t hold him back from counting later. I could be mistaken though.
Speaking of the Aladdin movies, gonna at some point do both Cassim and Sa'luk from The King of Thieves (I expect the former to be approved at least).
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Nov 28th 2020 at 7:39:12 AM
Naw, I'm just interested in the point of time during they're MB.
Speaking of which, we've got this candidate who just went up:
- Regular Show: Thomas is a seemingly average intern revealed to be a skilled Russian spy named Nikolai. Ingratiating himself into the gang's favor by helping fight off a hostile takeover by an army of past foes, Nikolai thwarts any attempt to sabotage his cover while playing the part of an unassuming Nice Guy, all the while covertly setting up machinery to transport the entire park landmass to Russia. Eventually subduing the entire crew, Nikolai discovers his Russian masters' true warmongering intentions and betrays them for his new friends, fighting off fellow spy Natalia and returning the Park to America, before going into hiding as a fugitive traitor. Nikolai eventually returns to spend one more night out with the gang while being pursued by secret service agents. After a lengthy chase, during which Nikolai uses all of his spy training to outmaneuver and thwart his assailants, Nikolai escapes by making a dive from a city dam to a hidden submarine, before bidding a happy goodbye to his new friends.
Those last two sentences show some cool moves but he seems to be a good guy at that point. Anyone care if they go?
If he got an entire EP and was approved, surely he does enough in Return alone to warrant a full writeup for that movie specifically.
You’ll have to spoiler-tag the entire entry on the YMMV page.
Edited by PurpleEyedGuma on Nov 28th 2020 at 10:32:31 AM
I wonder if the TV series might also have some keepers.
Wouldn't know. You agree on Cassim being a strong keeper while Sa'luk is probably too much of a brute?
Jafar also had a brief return in an Aladdin/Hercules crossover by the way.
@43 I think what made me think of highlighting the original too is that Kelvin Khan counts for both the movie and the comic and the comic also serves to subvert the one thing in the movie that would've kept him from counting otherwise.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Nov 28th 2020 at 7:41:22 AM
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
future: There's a big difference there. Khan does stuff of note in the movie, with the comic just clearing up his past and subverting the one thing that kept him off. While Jafar starts out Smug Snake who grows into this in the sequel, in which he rally steps up his game from the first.
Edited by Bullman on Nov 28th 2020 at 9:55:59 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
@ Guma, I'm not asking about spoiler tags, I want to know if everyone is okay with me cutting the last two sentences since the prior one indicates he has a Heel–Face Turn and is hence no longer a bastard at that point.
@ future, Bull's right, different circumstance. The film indicates he could be one with one possible blip in his past being a problem, the comic just solidifies his keeping.
Yes to Catwoman #6!
Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.
Also COD's now giving me a problem with the tree running to the fourth bullet with two new Black Ops keepers. Do we want to make a page now to be ready for the seventh or split up the tree? The former kinda makes more sense to me.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
43: I say we make a page now.
Edited by Bullman on Nov 28th 2020 at 10:04:36 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
If you are having trouble with the tree I'd say make the MB page for COD now.
Also so I just finished watching this show and there is one candidate I’m not to sure of but Lighty persuaded me to EP him. Anywho the show in question is called The Good Place so lets talk about it
What’s The Work?
The Good Place is an American fantasy comedy television series created by Michael Schur. The premise revolves around Eleanor Shellstrop who enters the titular Good Place, a highly selective Heaven-like utopia designed for those who lived a righteous life However, Elenor realizes that she was sent there by mistake and must hide her morally imperfect past behavior while trying to become a better and more ethical person.
Of course the Place that Elenor and her friends Chidi, Tahani, and Jason where isn’t actually “The Good Place” but actually The Bad Place place where the four were sent to emotionally and psychologically torture each other for all eternity and the guy who created it is none other than this guy Michael.
Who Is He? What Has He Done?
Micheal, the supposed afterlife “architect” of The Good Place is actually a demon who comes up with a plan to psychologically torture people in the bad place by transporting four dead souls into a the fake good place where he pairs the rude unethical Elenor with the kind yet indecisive Chidi and the rich intelligent Tahani with the dumb Jason knowing that they would torture each other with their conflicting personalities.
This plan works for a while in the afterlife until Elenor recognizes Micheal’s plan resulting in Micheal erasing the fours memories where he starts over with his experiments this time giving the four different soul mates. This doesn’t work as well as they keep on discovering Micheal’s plans forcing Micheal to reboot them over 800 times.
The Demons, specifically Vicky, starts getting tired of Micheal’s failures where Vicky threatens to reveal Shawn Micheal’s failures unless Micheal makes her in charge of the fake good place, forcing Micheal to comply to Vicky’s demands.
However Micheal decides to work with the four and scheme behind Vicky’s back by tricking Shawn and his demon kind into thinking that the four escaped while framing Vicky for his failures, resulting in Shawn trapping Vicky in the cocoon before leaving the fake good place.
Once the demons leave Micheal decides to take the four to the actual Good Place when he realized that his experiment actually made the four better people. Micheal would sneak into the Bad Place to go into the portal where he sacrifices himself before catching up with him to convince the Almighty Judge, Jen, to take the four into the Good Place.
Jen would allow Micheal to let the four to live on Earth to try becoming better people in an effort to get into the Good Place. Michel, would go behind Jen’s back and and would interfere with her experiment making sure that the four will commit good deeds. Gen and the four would learn of Micheal’s interference where Micheal with Janet’s help, would escape from Jen and Micheal would help the four reform other people so that they would get into the Good Place.
In there efforts to help other people get into the Good Place, Micheal discovers that the point system that gets people into the Good Place is flawed as Earth has become much more complex for the system to handle and no one has gone into the Good Place in over 500 years.
Micheal would convince Jen of the point system’s flaws allowing Jen to go with Micheal’s experiment of sending four flawed people chosen by Shawn and his demons to Micheal’s fake good place to reform them into becoming good enough to enter the goo place with one of those people being an amnesiac Chidi to replace a demon disguised as Chidi.
After meeting some obstacles in his experiment, 3 of the 4 subjects became better people as a result of Micheal’s experiment succeeding in getting Jen to realize that the system is indeed flawed. However Jen decides to erase all of life and existence before starting anew, to which Janet would distract Jen from erasing all of existence before convincing everyone, eventually Shawn to go against Jen and goes with Micheal’s plan.
Jen decides to relent and goes with Micheal’s plan where they would take the souls of those to passed away and have demons psychologically torture them until they reformed enough to enter the Good Place. Micheal’s plan proves to be a major success satisfying the damned souls, Jen, and the demons, where Micheal and his friend enter the real good place.
However Micheal and his friends learn that the Good Place is actually Hell of a Heaven and all the souls have become bored with everlasting bliss, where Micheal is appointed the head of the Good Place committee where Micheal decides to reform the Good Place by creating a door that will allow people to exit the Good Place and peacefully end their existence.
This new reformations appointed by Micheal for the afterlife proves to be a lasting success, Micheal decides to enter his door to be reincarnated as a human, which works when Elenor convinces Jen to allow Micheal to become human on Earth and enter the afterlife system when he dies
Is He Intelligent? Is He Charismatic?
As a Bad Place architect, Micheal proves to be The Chessmaster able to manipulate event and people with relative ease. Even when Micheal face numerous obstacles such as being blackmailed by Vicky to relinquish control to her, Micheal is able to think on the fly, such as outplaying Vicky by manipulating Shawn and the demons to turn against her amounts other obstacle showing that Micheal is capable of playing Xanatos Speed Chess.
As for charisma, Micheal is one of the most popular characters in the show being extremely lovable, funny and enjoyable for the audience, being played by the amazing Ted Dawnson certainly. He also manages to make everyone in the show (except Shawn and Vicky) to like him and do what he wants because of his great personality.
What’s The Competition Like?
Micheal is the most brilliant, charming, and devious character in the series with hardly anyone coming close. The only once who comes close to Micheal’s intelligence are Eleanor, Vicky, and Shawn. However Eleanor isn’t enough of a bastard to be considered, Vicky is too much of a Smug Snake who Micheal outplays, and Shawn is too much of a petty jerkass to be charming. So yeah Micheal clears the competition here by far
Is He a Bastard? Is He Too Much of a Bastard?
Micheal is a demon who has tortured hundreds, if not thousands, of souls for centuries, develops a way to psychologically torture souls, has lied and deceived countless people that he comes across and eventually took great joy in committing evil deeds prior to his Heel–Face Turn, so yeah I’d say that Micheal is enough of a bastard to be considered.
That said, Micheal has far from the worst demon and has many redeeming qualities that keeps him from being too much of a bastard. Micheal never goes too far in his villainy, has grow to care for Elenor and her friends ever since he decided to side with them, even sacrificing his life to prove that they could trust him and was genuinely shocked that no one went to The Good Place in over 500 years, where he personally makes changes to ensure that souls can indeed enter the good place if they’re good enough/
Final Verdict?
I’ll leave for you guys.
@ Lighty for encouraging me to do Micheal and feel free to point out anything about Micheal that I may have missed. 
Edited by G-Editor on Nov 28th 2020 at 6:08:15 AM
Really didn't end up being a fan of that one but from what I saw Michael performed quite well when he adjusted to the greater powers around him and it looks like he rode the waves nicely. I'm saying yes.
Yes to Michael.
@43 Sure, cut them.
to Michael
Did we ever decide on a quote for the Supernatural page?
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread