Apologies about that, both pages have already been requested for cutting
Sharp, I also appreciate the explanation. My opinion though is Bonus Boss is more a descriptor while TOB is more a YMMV to denote especially difficult ones
If there's no actual objections, I'll probably take Bonus Boss to TRS sometime tomorrow. Might try and do Serac's suggestion and try to swap the name for Superboss - at the absolute minimum, that would reduce the amount of headaches that pop up regarding this trope.
Edited by DocSharp on Sep 28th 2020 at 3:17:12 AM
Should "That One" pages have a waiting period before an example can be added? I am asking this because Monster Hunter: World released Fatalis two days ago as the final DLC update and he's considered as the hardest monster in the game. But a similar previous DLC monster (Alatreon) was released who was considered the hardest but one week later, he can be consistently beaten. So is it hard because it is legitimately hard or is it because players simply aren't accustomed to their moveset yet?
I...don't see why there should be a waiting period
So how long do you guys think we need to wait? Is 1-2 weeks enough?
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
...The literal only response was Lighty disagreeing that we need a wait period, so why are you asking?
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Woops sorry i guess i misintepreted the answer. Anyway I feel there should be a waiting period because it is possible that someone like me could add a boss due to a knee jerk reaction when in truth it isn't hard and one week later can be consistently beaten. If people still struggled to beat after a week passed then said boss certainly is a candidate of being one.
Edited by Loekman3 on Oct 2nd 2020 at 11:29:13 PM
I'm Sad Frogerson.
Waiting periods should be added for tropes where either a) kneejerk responses are a common problem or b) require a retrospective look at the work itself.
To my knowledge, there isn't really a problem with people trying to add That One Boss or That One Level entries immediately after a work comes out. If they do, that's usually a sign something really is that difficult.
I think a waiting period is really unnecessary.
The Unknown
Isn't World an MMO of some sort? I think there should be a small waiting period for those since people need to figure out the meta for the boss.
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel
Yeah, that's a good argument for a short waiting time. To make sure that there isn't some easy strategy that no one's discovered yet.
Maybe in earlier times, but now? Games are almost always released early, people have entire playthroughs up before official release days.
The Unknown
That's not really an argument since it sounds like the general public doesn't have access to it for an opinion to form. There's also Day 1 patches to consider.
Edited by Karxrida on Oct 3rd 2020 at 12:40:55 PM
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
So looking at Monster Hunter and I can see that it's in need of a cleanup pretty badly. I'll preface this by saying I'm against adding anything that requires beating the multiplayer final boss. Just on a quick look at the page though I'm seeing examples written as Goddamned Boss, things being listed as being hard as they are hard without much context, general examples in a lot of places, hyper monsters being an absolute mess in general and needing a rewrite, and something needs to be done with Behomoth (which I'm for straight cutting as he was meant to be hard) as the example is way to long as is.
Edited by mr_allen on Oct 7th 2020 at 7:51:27 AM
For starters, I personally felt that Arch-Tempered monsters including Extreme Behemoth shouldn't have an entry in the first place beause they're Event-exclusive monsters purposely designed to be difficult. They felt like a Bonus Boss to me
I removed an example from ThatOneLevel.Super Mario Bros' Super Mario 64 section about Tick Tock Clock's red coin mission, since you're supposed to do it by stopping the clock and it's one of the easiest stars in the whole game (the writer seemed to confuse it for an earlier mission). The rest of the section has questionable examples too, with many citing a Self-Imposed Challenge using the N64 mouse:
" The Manta Ray's Reward: You have to trail behind a manta ray and swim through the rings that he releases as he moves through the water. To get the star, you have to swim through five consecutive rings, which due to your inability to turn on a dime while in the water, and the fact that they vanish after a couple of seconds and if you miss just one you have to start over, is really amazingly frustrating for something that sounds really simple."
" The 100-coin star: There are only 106 total coins in the level, so you really need to collect almost every coin. And sooooo, sooooo many of them are underwater. And many of those are directly in front of instant-death whirlpools (in fact, there's a handful of those coins by the large black hole in the second portion of the course, risking you getting sucked in and sent back to the outside of the castle), so good luck collecting them all without dying! To save yourself some work, you might want to get this star at the same time as the red coin star, since you'll have to get all of those anyway in order to have enough coins to reach 100. Also notable, it is futile to attempt getting 100 coins before completing Bowser in the Fire Sea, as the moving poles that allow access to the blue and red coins won't be there since Bowser's Sub will still occupy the area.note And again, to Nintendo 64 Mouse Challenge takers: forget about it."
" Rainbow Ride (a really difficult area as it is) has a notably hard 100-coin star. There are plenty of coins in the area, but they're spread amongst several divergent pathways, and to get all the coins you need, you must go down each pathway and then backtrack so you can go down another. The layout of the course - a series of platforms in the sky with large distances between them and only flying carpets for navigation — does not make this easy, to say the least, and to boot, there is (as always) a switch that activates blue coins worth 5 each for a short time. Not only is doing this perfectly necessary for 100, but it requires a speedy series of wall-jumps that is very easy to flub, resulting in an Unwinnable situation. And due to at least a few of the aforementioned blue coins being necessary to get the star, tough luck if you decide to take the Nintendo 64 Mouse Challenge, because that Star is absolutely off limits! The DS port makes blue coin part much easier thanks to the improved wall jump mechanics."
Edited by lalalei2001 on Oct 19th 2020 at 9:39:13 AM
The Protomen enhanced my life.
Industrious Incisors
Having recently played 64 to 100%, I’ll say neither of the Dire Dire Docks stars listed were a problem for me. There’s just barely enough coins, but none of them are individually too hard to get since there are no enemies that drop coins nor blue coins that can despawn and you don’t have to get that close to the whirlpool or the exit hole. As for the manta ray, maybe it counts? I didn’t have a problem once I got myself focused on the swimming controls, but if others have a hard time, I won’t be the final word. Rainbow Ride definitely counts though. The wall jump didn’t give me problems (though I can see how it would others) but even then, it is way too easy to miss a jump and have to start all over.
SoundCloud
Rainbow Ride for sure counts, but...not the N64 Mouse part. XD
The Protomen enhanced my life.
Industrious Incisors
Also, random aside, some Mario games really blur the line between level and sidequest, don’t they? Some like Sunshine have clear distinctions, but in 64, things like the slides would surely be sidequests in any other game, but since you could technically get to the standard ending doing those more than platforming, they can’t really be considered more optional.
SoundCloud
I remember seeing somewhere that the collision detection for what does and doesn't count as swimming through a ring in The Manta Ray's Reward is actually super off-kilter, only compounded by the amount of angles that they can appear at due to the manta ray's path. That said, it's still not very hard (you even get free oxygen every time you swim through one, so you can follow it as much as you like), and there's one turn it does in particular where it's really easy to rack up the five pass-throughs you need. If anything, Can The Eel Come Out To Play? is a lot less forgiving, especially in the oxygen department.
Maintenance?
I just cleaned up nigh-intolerable levels of complaining in the Super Mario Galaxy and Super Mario Galaxy 2 folders in ThatOneLevel.Super Mario Bros, but they still need to be scrubbed for misuse and bad examples.
Edited by LaundryPizza03 on Nov 4th 2020 at 4:50:57 AM
I'm back!
Plenty of legitimate examples, but I suggest removing some or all of the following:
- Hunt the Nessy: Not difficult, just infamous for being really tedious (as the write-up admits). That's not this trope.
- Feel the Heat: Easy because you can use the Basher skill to make a Builder stop wherever you want. Whoever originally added this to the page may not have realised that.
- King of the Castle: Another one that's widely disliked for being builder-heavy, but it's not very hard.
- "All the Tame levels": These are disliked for being boring and way too easy, which is not what That One Level is about.
- Many lemmings make level work: Again, someone tried to do this the hard way instead of using the two builders.
- "The secret of Lemh": As the write-up admits, it's not hard to pass, just hard to save 100%. (And it's far from the hardest to save 100% on; that honour goes to a couple of levels that were still believed to be impossible to 100% at the time the entry was written.)
- "The Hangar" and "Five Towers": ZCE. I haven't played L3D myself so I can't commment on these.
- "The Apple Computer Level": same as the Tame levels, above.
Edited by Vilui on Nov 4th 2020 at 1:58:37 AM
Maintenance?
Okay, I will focus on ThatOneLevel.Super Mario Bros. After scrubbing complaining, I'd like some feedback on which examples are valid.
- The four Cosmic Comet missions are all pretty unforgiving; you race a clone of yourself to the star, which is harder than it sounds because the clone is faster than you, doesn't make mistakes, and in the case of Luigi's clone, takes more shortcuts. The most difficult of all of them is Sea Slide Galaxy's "Underwater Cosmic Race", which requires you to obtain a shell before he does to have any hope of winning, and this requires a precise long jump into the water.
- The Ghostly Galaxy's Daredevil Comet pits you up against That One Boss, Bouldergeist, with only one hit point. You beat the boss is to throw three sets of three Boo Bombs at his center. Bouldergeist's main attack is summoning jagged rocks from the ground that are really hard to dodge.
- Sling Pod Galaxy requires precise aiming of the namesake Sling Pods, or else you will drift off into space or get sucked into a black hole. Star bits in excess of 9,000 (not joking) were earned, thanks to the developers always making sure there were enough of them to give you an extra life every time you died.
- In the Battlerock Galaxy, during the second star mission, you can access a secret area with piles of trash on it and a robot who wants you to clear it up by throwing Bob-Ombs at them. But there is a 30-second time limit, not helped by the long detonation times for the Bob-ombs. There is a nearly identical mission in the Dreadnought Galaxy. The sequel, which had the mission statement of being harder than the original, made the trash-destroying sidequests in the Rightside Down and Upside Dizzy Galaxies significantly easier.
- The Battlerock and Dreadnought Purple Coin missions are very similar — in both missions, you have to travel on a moving platform and collect coins while dodging cannonballs and other obstacles, and in both cases, if you miss a coin, there's no way to go back and get it. In Battlerock, you have to do insane jumps over large electric fences, as well as having to constantly switch between two sides of a moving platform. In Dreadnought, the platform you're on goes upwards, sideways, and then upside down as you collect coins and dodge cannonballs. Fortunately, if you take too much time collecting coins on one of the stationary platforms, another lift will come along.
- The Ghostly Galaxy Purple Coin mission. You have one minute to collect 100 coins that are scattered in a bone pen with the pull stars. There are bouncy pieces of meat everywhere to throw you off course.
- The Gusty Garden Galaxy Purple Coin mission. You need to collect 100 purple coins (out of 150) on the "puzzle cube" planet from the first mission, in 2 minutes and 30 seconds. The planet is confusing to navigate, and one part has Purple Coins on thin ledges with wonky camera angles.
- The three Trial Galaxies are called that for a reason.
- The Loopdeswoop Galaxy. Ray, a large manta ray steered using the Wiimote, returns from the similarly-named Loopdeloop Galaxy, except that this course is narrower and has harder turns, with some sections also being much faster. There are many 1-Up Mushrooms scattered throughout the track.
- The Rolling Gizmo Galaxy, which forces you to cross very thin platforms, dodge Bob-Ombs, and ride moving platforms while rolling on a ball and crossing the void. To add insult to injury, you're required to hop on a block that rotates around the platform to get to the final Star Ball blaster, which is an extra tricky bit of maneuvering.
- The Bubble Blast Galaxy. The bubble, already a hard-to-maneuver One-Hit Wonder, must be navigated through a maze of electric fences. The first objective is to collect five Star Chips within five different areas, all featuring you riding the bubble. And then after you collect them all, you'll be launched to an area where your bubble has to dodge Bullet Bills that home on to you, as well as guns that shoot electric balls.
- Luigi's Purple Coins is a mission in the Toy Time Galaxy whose objective is to collect 100 purple coins, out of 150, in 3 minutes. There is no lava, unlike the flipside of the planet, only a green slime that is instant death (by contrast, you bounce off lava and lose a bit of health), and all platforms either disappear or start rotating once you step on them. Needless to say, planning your route is required, as any mistakes are immediately fatal. In an interview in Nintendo Power, one of the developers outright said that it was the hardest level in the game.
- Several levels rely on a hard-to-master Spring Mushroom, which can easily result in you falling to your death. The one in Matter Splatter Galaxy is particularly hard, since the third section requires you to bounce up an effectively Auto Scrolling level where platforms appear and disappear as a patch moves up a tall tower with no walls.
- One Daredevil Comet challenge replays an entire mission from Melty Molten Galaxy, which is covered in lava, with only one hit point. It is the only Daredevil Comet mission that does not take place during a boss fight.
- The Kamella Daredevil Run in Deep Dark Galaxy. This is the second fight against Kamella, who randomly teleports between each spell. The crow's nest section of the fight is almost a guaranteed HP eater, due to the multitude of fireballs from the boss and her Magikoopas.
- "Purple Coins in the Desert" doesn't have a time limit, but there are no checkpoints and it is easy to fall into the quicksand.
- The sole mission in Snow Cap Galaxy involves chasing and catching several Star Bunnies within 150 seconds, on a planet that is is covered almost entirely with snow that will slow Mario down to a crawl.
- The infamous garbage cleanup sidequest from the first game returns in Rightside Down and Upside Dizzy Galaxies, though somewhat easier. You have 20 seconds to use a Fire Flower to clean up the garbage-filled crates (for comparison, the original mission used Bob-ombs), with the only difference between the two missions being that the Upside Dizzy one has more crates.
- Hightail Falls involves using the unwieldy Dash Yoshi to to run along walls. (There is no special gravity in the main path of the level.) Even worse is the Speedrun Comet, a timed mission which also gives you less space to move around.
- Tall Trunk Galaxy's Prankster Comet mission takes place on the slide, where a robot has lost 140 purple coins scattered throughout it. The nature of the level means that there is no backtracking, and you lose a life if you fail to collect 100 coins by the time you reach the bottom.
- Cloudy Court Galaxy has a secret mission, "Silver Stars In The Purple Pond". You go to a massive bowl filled with dark matter with an array of clouds floating over it. You are chased by four Cosmic Clones who copy your moves, and if you get hit you lose the Cloud Flower powerup and fall into the dark matter.
- The Beat Block Galaxy, by itself, isn't hard: a set of yellow blocks and a set of green blocks alternate being solid, and you just have to listen for the musical cue for each switch, which happens every eight beats. The comet mission is similar, but with the blocks alternating every two beats. It's a good idea not to jump toward any block that is solid, as it most likely won't be anymore by the time you reach it. Whereas in the normal mission you only have to collect five Silver Stars on what is a single side of a pyramid with the alternating blocks, the comet mission has a full pyramid to go around, with the Silver Stars scattered all around it. However, you do get Yoshi to help you.
- In Chompworks Galaxy, the second star can be a massive pain if you don't know how to use the Spring Mushroom. Unlike the first game, the level doesn't spend much time teaching the mechanics of the item.
- In "Cosmic Clones in the Chompworks", you have to race around a course holding down platforms to guide a Golden Chomp to the end of the course, where it will release the Star, while Cosmic Clones chase after you. Not only is it hard to stand and wait on the platforms the right amount of time while the clones are chasing you, but the layout of the level makes you retrace your steps quite a bit — which, means running through where the clones are running around.
- The fast-moving, hard-to-steer Dash Yoshi returns in the Purple Coin mission in the Starshine Beach Galaxy. You have 35 seconds to collect 100 purple coins, out of 140 scattered across the main planet.
- "The Star In The Sinking Swamp" forces you to run on a super fast and unpredictable Snake Block that gives you hardly any time to react to its twists and turns. If that's not tricky enough, there are also several enemies in the way that make the star even harder to get.
- Fleet Glide Galaxy. Fluzzard from the Wild Glide Galaxy is relatively hard to control, and you die if you hit a wall. A key difference is that there is lava everywhere, so you will want to collect the Life Mushroom to stay alive. The hardest thing about the level is obtaining the Comet Medal: Like before, you have to pass through five gates to get the medal, but all five are out of your way, and you have to skip the Life Mushroom to pass through the first gate.
- The Daredevil Comet for "Bowser Jr's Boom Bunker" requires you to traverse the the entire level, including the boss fight and an entirely new segment not seen in the original level.
- The second mission of Melty Monster Galaxy has a long, winding path where you need to steer Rock Mario, making sure not to fall off; your only relief is the easy-to-reach 1-Up mushroom and the large number of Star Bits along the course. Near the end, you have to bounce off two boxing ring ropes.
- Clockwork Ruins Galaxy has you traversing a series of giant rotating cogs. Gravity does not keep you in place, so you have to keep moving around the edges of the platforms in order to stay in a position where you don't fall to your death. The Prankster Comet for this world requires you to collect 100 Purple Coins on the two cogs of the first planet, within 5 minutes.
- The World S galaxies take Brutal Bonus Level to a new level of player frustration. The closest the world has to a benign galaxy is the Twisty Trials Galaxy, which is nearly identical to "The Secret of Ricco Harbor" from Super Mario Sunshine. But the other galaxies...
- The Mario Squared Galaxy's Comet mission, "Luigi's Purple Coin Chaos", is similar to the hardest mission in the original game, except even harder. While there are no rotating platforms, the green Shrinking Tiles remain, there are Cosmic Clones which begin spawning the instant you get the first coin, and the time limit is reduced to two minutes. Also, you need to collect all 100 coins. If you plan to do this level, bring a friend; Co-Star Luma can keep the vanishing platforms there for you.
- The Stone Cyclone Galaxy. It's the result of taking the third mission of Beach Bowl Galaxy from the first game, making the Cyclone Stone the only planet, making everything on it move faster, and putting Silver Stars on it. That means no checkpoints. You're expected to slow everything down using blue switches scattered throughout the level. The Comet mission gets rid of the Silver Stars, but it also removes the slow-motion switches.
- In Rolling Coaster Galaxy's "Purple Coins on the Rainbow Road", you have two minutes to collect 100 Purple Coins (out of 110) while riding on a hard-to-control ball, with no way to backtrack. Some of the coins are scattered about on the platforms in between slide sections, requiring ultra-precise maneuvers to collect them. As with "Tall Trunk's Purple Coin Slide" above, you lose a life if you reach the bottom without collecting enough coins.
- The Boss Blitz Galaxy. Fighting Dino Piranha, King Kaliente, Major Burrows, Bouldergeist, and Fiery Dino Piranha is simple enough, but then the Comet mission slaps you with a 5-minute time limit, which means you'll have to rush through the already difficult two last battles.
- "Cosmic Clones Wall Jumpers" is the Prankster Comet mission in the Flip-Out Galaxy. You have to wall-jump and spin with precision up red and blue walls that alternately flip in and out, while the Cosmic Clones are chasing you. There is very little room for error if you get hit whilw wall jumping. The Mercy Invincibility-ignoring Spikes of Doom that you won't have the time to wait out, which causes you to bounce around as if on fire if you touch them. It is the only Comet Mission to contain a Green Star, which is to the right of the final wall jump section, essentially requiring you to complete it twice for 100% Completion.
- The Grandmaster Galaxy by itself is merely tough.
It is a multi-section level where each part poses a unique challenge, such as swinging through a minefield with Yoshi. However, the comet star, the final level in the game, requires you to traverse it with a a single hit point.
- Green Stars in general are a pain, as some range from just waiting on a platform to dissipate from beneath you, to overcoming odd camera angles and controls thanks to gravity so you can leap to your death. Some green stars are literally a pain, involving such shenanigans as getting hurt to get rid of a powerup that prevents backflipping or (unless you're Luigi) jumping into lava to burn-bounce into the star. That said, some individual Green Stars are worth singling out.
- The Flipsville final Green Star requires you to fall into it from the wrong side of a platform. It's located above a bottomless pit, so there is no shadow to judge your fall. The Camera Screw for this star is so bad that it was once the image for this Wiki's Fake Difficulty page.
- The final Green Star in Shiverburn Galaxy is located on the third planet, and you have to use the Cloud Flower from the first planet to reach it. Not only do you need to avoid taking a hit, but spinning more than twice will use up all three of your clouds, and you need at least one cloud to get the star. The second planet is really hard to get through under these restrictions, since it takes place on shifting platforms over lava with a bunch of rock-spitting enemies.
- The first Green Star in the Boo Moon Galaxy. You have to ride an extremely fast-moving platform going at running speed, then long jump off to the star in a split second, hopefully not falling into the poisonous swamp underneath.
- The final Green Star in Melty Monster Galaxy requires you to roll through an extremely lengthy passage with the Stone Mushroom, already very difficult in its own right, and then you have to fall off the platforms and collide with the star suspended in mid-air. You have to be moving in a very precise direction and fall off at exactly the right spot to catch it.
- There are two ways to reach the first Green Star of Stone Cyclone Galaxy. The easy way is to perform a precise triple jump without getting squashed by the fast-moving Tox Box. The other, more difficult strategy is to turn on the time-slowing switch, jump on the Tox Box, and then long-jump to the star.
I dunno if the Brutal Bonus Levels count since those are hard by definition. Luigi's Purple Coins can stay, though; there are many tales of how infamous it is. (I never played either Galaxy game so i can't give more feedback, but even I know how bad that mission is.)
The Protomen enhanced my life.
This is YMMV, they shouldn't need to be wholly objective, just written in a decent style for it.
Edited by Lightysnake on Sep 26th 2020 at 7:56:41 AM