Sure, I got the apparent consensus, then saw the crowner that draws a different conclusion. Can't say that has never happened before.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. — H.L. Mencken
The consensus of the thread and the results of the crowner were both "use The Dragon for the Big Bad's right hand man, spin off a new trope for penultimate threat." Which, as far as I can tell, is exactly what you want.
Did anyone ever make that TLP? That's where we're stuck right now.
Edited by Discar on Jul 22nd 2019 at 10:34:58 AM
Short-Term Projects herald
I thought The Dragon was originally defined as the penultimate threat, as that's how the name is used off-site.
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Planeswalker
It was, but it underwent Trope Decay into "the Big Bad's Number Two" and that was how it was used for a super long time to the point where more people knew it as that trope. And the crowner voted to officially change The Dragon into "the Big Bad's Number Two" while the original trope needs to be moved.
Oissu!
What I want is for it to be left alone. It is a thing that has to be overcome for a "satisfying" conclusion. It doesn't have to be penultimate, it just has to come before the big payoff. It is not necessarily allied with a Big Bad in any way. It is just an important obstacle. One that breathes (or is alive in some unbreathing way).
We already have Number Two. Maybe it should be used in some cases where The Dragon is now.
I'm going to Sandbox.The Dragon description to remove some distracting word choices.
Edited by eyebones on Jul 22nd 2019 at 1:55:53 PM
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. — H.L. Mencken
Goku Black
But we already voted to change it.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Planeswalker
The Dragon has been changed to the Evil Counterpart of Number Two via voting. That's all done with now. The part that kind of died was moving the old trope to a new name.
Oissu!
Once again, I strongly disagree. Want to do something meaningful and hard? Fix the "voting" process to something better.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. — H.L. Mencken
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Respectfully, Eddie, if the consensus has already happened, then all you're doing here is ranting about the decision you dislike. I think that's just as unconstructive as you've accused this thread of being. People aren't going to take your side and change their minds if all you're doing is telling them they're wrong or wasting time.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Tyrannoraptoran Reptiliomorph
Yes, and stop calling me snotty.
Edited by Lymantria on Jul 24th 2019 at 4:42:25 AM
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Wait, was The Dragon ever anything else but the Big Bad's Number Two? That's what I thought it was until I saw this thread (and so did many-many other tropers, apparently).
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
It was originally the penultimate threat.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
So...what's exactly the plan here? Has anything actually been done?
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Note that eddie deleted the sandboxed description on Sandbox.The Dragon, reverting it to essentially a shorter version of the current description. I have previously thrown in my hat for Karxrida's previous sandbox attempt, which I reproduce here:
The Dragon is the Evil Counterpart of the Number Two, being the right-hand man of the Big Bad. He's the main villain's closest confidant (or something akin to it), frequently acts as his Foil, and may be seen working as the front-liner of the evil forces to personally carry out his master's orders as one of his most dangerous and competent subordinates.
Tropes related to The Dragon:
- Beta Bitch - Number Two to the Alpha Bitch, often fills the Dragon role when the Alpha Bitch is the Big Bad.
- Co-Dragons - Two or more characters split the Dragon role between them.
- The Creon - A second-in-command that's happy with his position.
- Demoted to Dragon - A previous Big Bad is revealed to be, or is reduced to being, the Dragon to another villain.
- Devour the Dragon - The Big Bad kills the Dragon in order to become stronger.
- Dragon Ascendant - When he takes over from the Big Bad after the latter is defeated or leaves.
- Dragon-in-Chief - When he is more dangerous than the Big Bad and the de facto main villain of the story. Like Dragon with an Agenda, may be The Man Behind the Man. Not to be confused with The Heavy.
- Dragon Their Feet - When the Big Bad is defeated or killed first. The Dragon may or may not show up afterwards to rescue or avenge him, but he might just take his business elsewhere.
- Dragon with an Agenda - When he has different goals from the Big Bad. If those goals are mutually exclusive, The Starscream, Rule of Two or Dragon-in-Chief may be in play.
- The Heavy - The "active" villain that drives most of the plot. This is more often the Dragon than the Big Bad, since most authors want to keep the Big Bad in the background and mysterious for most of the story. Not to be confused with Dragon-in-Chief.
- It's Personal with the Dragon: When the Dragon is the hero's Arch-Enemy instead of the Big Bad.
- Mook Lieutenant: When the Dragon is merely the leader of the Big Bad's minions when the Big Bad isn't around.
- Mouth of Sauron - When the Big Bad himself is almost never seen taking an active role, The Dragon is usually the one who picks up the slack on reminding people why they're afraid of the Big Bad in the first place.
- Noble Top Enforcer - A trope that often overlaps with the Dragon; when the Big Bad's Number Two is an Anti-Villain that is considerably more virtuous than his master. Likely to turn on the Big Bad if their actions piss him off enough.
- Number Two - The second-in-command of a team or organization, often overlapping with The Dragon.
- Rule of Two - A standard Big Bad and Dragon dynamic where betrayal is expected, and often inevitable.
- The Starscream - A traitorous Number Two; often fulfills the role of the Dragon.
- Villainous Friendship - When a Dragon is good friends with the Big Bad.
For literal dragons and their permutations, see Our Dragons Are Different. Not to be confused with Dragon Lady, who is more likely to be a Big Bad than the Dragon, or Dragon, which was a magazine. Definitely not to be confused with The Savage Dragon.
Goku Black
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I like that. Let's switch the current for that. We have consensus.
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
And as for Eddie's actions, I made a post
on the Appeal to the Moderation thread.
Musician/Composer
And I've just restored it to the previous version.
He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.
The Sandbox version looks good. It does feel weird how much it overlaps with Number Two, but I can see the logic of not wanting to change it since it's too popular.
(she/her)
The sandbox draft looks good. I suppose we need more opinions before switching it in?
Also do we need to TLP a trope for the Penultimate Threat aspect?
Edited by MacronNotes on Mar 3rd 2020 at 3:13:46 PM
Macron's notes
I'm late to the party as I realised there is an issue when it has seemingly been resolved.
I also like the draft that naturalironist linked above.
Edited by Asherinka on Mar 8th 2020 at 8:41:21 PM
naturalironist I like it! (Why you gotta drag The Savage Dragon 
)
Square Peg, Round Trope currently has this, which basically says the opposite of what this thread decided:
I don't have a suggested rewording at this time, but I can personally attest to how very confused that specific thing made me when trying to evaluate if a character is/isn't The Dragon and the need for a change. (I forget if I saw it pop up on any of the "subtle trope distinction" pages.)
That should be changed to match the new definition.
Seems like we have consensus to swap in the sandbox?
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Goku Black
Let's do it.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
I'm not doing the Square Peg Round Trope update myself because I'm a latecomer to the discussion and not sure I understand well enough to explain, so, just noting that's still TBD.
![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
Also someone brought up before that an image change thread would be good since using Darth Vader is quite confusing. His use on the page definitely contributed to my confusion on the trope.
Edited by immichan on Mar 10th 2020 at 4:09:48 AM
Crown Description:
This is one of the Tropes Of Legend, with 13,901 wicks and 40,922 inbounds.
Personally, had I been able to vote when the crowner ran, I would have gone with renaming all relevant tropes to more descriptive names, so that "Dragon" can actually invoke the mythical creatures. The amount of work needed does not matter; the long-term benefits will greatly outweigh the short-term costs, letting it sit longer will create an even bigger backlog for us to deal with in the future, and many hands make short work.
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