Ben 10 (New Series)

Okay, for starter thank you for answering and satisfying my curiosity^^ I was genuinely wondering what other reasons someone might have to dislike these guys.

Now as for the reasons... I admit the part about you finding them too wicked confused me. Yes, the stuff they do is horrible, but you're supposed to hate them, they're the villain in this whole thing. So I don't really see how that's a problem, sorry.

I completely agree about them being shallow, though; Swift and Leander were basically just glorified mooks and the fact they had alien powers ended up amounting to exactly squat.

Personally my dislike of them comes from the fact that 1) They are basically just a giant excuse from the writers to pull a giant retcon that removes entire chunks of my favourite Ben 10 era, which I find both insulting and completely nonsensical and 2) Once you start thinking about it for five minutes, you realize Servantis' plan is a gigantic case of Bond Villain Stupidity. Seriously, I could go for entire paragraphs explaining why his plan was idiotic.

I know I'm supposed to hate them, but even then, I usually love villains, no matter what they are. Unless they go as far as some serious issues that do not make them seem threatening, only like monsters. Destroying a planet, cutting off bodies, reviving the dead to make an army, destroying all of existence? Honestly, villains like that are appealing.

But kidnapping children, brainwashing them, training them into becoming living weapons, force them back into submission after they've recovered, chasing after the same kid for years not because they yearn for power, but because they believe they're completely justified in their manner and have no Freudian Excuse of the sort that make them even the least appealing, even going as far as trying to undo the many seasons of Kevin trying to make amend for who he used to be?

That's a no for me. They don't have an aesthetic going on, they're like that one group of study that spent one night reading reports about collateral damage and the dangers of using a certain weapon before waking up the day after and forming an activist group.

The other villains were cruel, but they at least had something appealing to them and didn't go as far as making child soldiers do their dirty jobs, especially when said child soldiers were friends of Ben and co. The only cool thing about the Rooters are their outfits, and even that is kinda iffy for me because I hate everything else about them (I'll be fair, that's not saying much because it's just Rook's Proto-Armor but darker and a tweaked a bit).

Which reminds me a thing I absolutely dislike about Max's role in OG: as much as him helping Ben and Gwen (and eventually Kevin) with saving the world is cool... he basically formed his grandchildren and his friends into child soldiers, and it kept on during their teenage years. The fact that was basically the Rooters' plan for the Amalgam Kids is also really disturbing, because if both them and Max did it, it means the Plumbers have little to no qualm about using children to do their job.

The sad thing about writing a Lighter and Softer and Denser and Wackier tone (looking at Omniverse and onwards) is that the Child Soldiers and Kid Hero aspects of the franchise, and the toll it takes on said characters, just isn't touched on or acknowledged.

Ah, I get it. The particular points the Rooters touch are a type sensible spot that makes you uncomfortable and prevent you from enjoying seeing them in action. I understand. I kinda have the same attitude toward villains who commit rape, child murder and animal cruelty; these particular crimes disgust me beyond mere Kick the Dog moments.

Yeah, it's a shame. Had they treated it better, it could have actually been interesting.

You got it.

I wished they would've addressed those in the shows the problem even debuted. OS and UAF started the issue, but never was there any point where someone asked "Why would Max make you fight? Even if you have powers, aren't you too young to go risking your life on daily basis?" Even if Ben doesn't have a choice, none of the shows ever showed anything wrong about Ben sacrificing his daily life for the sake of everyone else.

It's no wonder he can act selfish and reckless sometimes, kinda stinks he's doing an adult job when he hasn't even properly graduated for something other than his heroics. He hasn't had the time to be a teenager with all that stuff going on. (anyone else feel like "Basic Training" was a metaphor about Ben enlisting in the army? At 16?)

I kinda like the reboot on that aspect. Without the Plumbers and without Ben being forced to assume a job at an early age, he's got much more freedom. He's being a hero not because it's his job, but because he can. I like the freelance hero idea more than the space cop idea.

Honestly Max never stroke me as turning Ben and Gwen into child soldiers in the Original Show, because he never actually urged them to fight or anything; that was Ben's own choices of saving people, and him constantly meeting weird things that required to defend yourself. Max just happened to be part of the Plumbers, and was essentially just going along to protect his grandkids and make sure nothing too bad happened to them. He couldn't take the Omnitrix away from Ben, nor could he prevent monsters from coming after him, so he helped him learn to defend himself as a compromise because Ben was gonna meet dangerous beings anyway. By the time of Alien Force, Ben had already learnt to fight and it was too late. Plus, notice that Ben was allowed to have a normal life for 5 years after removing the Omnitrix, and Max only guided him into putting the Omnitrix back on as a Godzilla Threshold— a giant Alien Invasion like nothing before was threatening the universe, so he arranged for Ben to come back. As for Ben joining the Plumbers, that was done by that Magister whose name I forgot as a mean to allow Ben Gwen and Kevin to fight the Highbreed legally rather than forced recruitment (though I do admit the whole thing is Basic Training was meh). Ben never became a hero because it was his job, he did it because he wanted to; him being made a member of the Plumbers was basically just a mean to make sure it was legal.

Edited by Theokal3 on Jul 21st 2019 at 8:03:42 PM

He couldn't take the Omnitrix away... but we never saw him actually try. Like, Carl at least tried using tools to remove it from Ben's wrist, Max never even tried to take that thing off of Ben. And while yeah, he was helping them and it could be useful... it never seemed to bother him one second that his grandkids were doing Plumber's work instead of going on normal summer vacation.

Once we did see him leave the Plumber thing behind, but that was a one time thing, when Ben expressed joy at the idea that he was technically a Plumber in training in "Truth". Afterwards, nothing bothered him at the idea his grandson is getting into his old professional career where people could potentially cage him, eat him, dissect him or sell him away if he ever ended up meeting aliens or went off-planet.

In the end, it was useful, but I don't think we've ever seen him mind what's going on. Sure, the kids need training and protection from bad guys so teaching them is a good idea. But... has he even tried to end the alien madness while it was there? Not once did we see him attempt to remove the Omnitrix for Ben's sake. Even if he couldn't... has he even tried?

By the time of season 2 in OS, Ben and Gwen were all but Plumbers by name. They got no badge, no Plumber Academy classes, but with Max being the one supervising them on summer vacation, it's as if they were under Plumber training.

I know he didn't have a choice, but he didn't show much reticence at that idea. It felt like he was "Oh no, Ben got an alien device strapped to him. Oh well, better start training him". We didn't even see him contemplate the fact his grandchildren may be in danger because of alien related stuff and that it'd be easier if he came clean. He didn't take the time to tell Ben of the dangers it could bring him, only occasionally when Ben went out of line.

As for Alien Force, I do agree at that point, it was too late (does NOT make anything better though), and it brings us to another issue. Max asked Ben to recruit Plumbers' kids. But like... why not hire their competent, actually fighting, and more traditionally and legally allowed to, parents?

Why hire the Plumbers' children when Ben could ask help from the actual space cops with years of training and knowledge, full alien powers for some and no legal problem with fighting? Why ask help from kids who probably need more guidance about their powers and how to adjust on Earth instead of making them enlist space police at teenagehood? And Alan was ten years old during Alien Force, Ben's age in OS (which, again, is still a bit worrying when you realize these kids are almost dying every day by being thrown into danger).

Honestly, it's one of the things I found iffy about the Rooters because they use child soldiers... with the other issue being that they weren't the ones forming said soldiers. At least you'd expect those kids to try having a normal life while they're still, y'know, kids. Graduate, try to get a job then maybe join superheroes, rather than risking their lives when they still gotta be in bed by 9 and study for tomorrow's algebra test.

Ben didn't become a hero because it was his job. But he became a Plumber because he had no other choice if he wanted to stay a hero. Max's a Plumber involved with aliens, Ben's related to Max and involved with aliens as well, he can't really do anything else beside follow after Max's footsteps and become what people expect from him. Otherwise, he'll be viewed as "not as competent as his grandfather" from people and colleagues who aren't his fans.

If he didn't become a Plumber, he'd get in trouble for doing Plumber activities such as preventing alien threats when he's legally a civilian, which was an episode's plot in AF as they hadn't gone through some military-type training yet (at 15).

With that huge copypasta out of the way, I just realized we're lucky Gwen didn't find the Omnitrix in the reboot. Because, well... if Kevin has the AntiTrix, their confrontations would be borderline Foe Yay.

Like, Gwen threatening to kick Kevin's butt after being provoked, with Kevin being flustered at how savage she could be. Not to mention the romantic interactions they'd have in alien form...

A bunch of theories for the Alien Force reboot (if they have one)

• Ben & co have already met Azmuth in a Made-for-TV Movie or offscreen and it shows a flashback of that.

• Glitch is back. And Julie dates him instead of Ben.

• The Andromeda Aliens arc appears here because Overflow is already Andromedan.

• Kevin has an Unexplained Recovery and appears sometimes. His Osmosian powers show here because he has lost the Antitrix somehow.

Unpopular opinion:

Bivalvan is now a girl and a Cascan (duh for the last part) and Ra'ad has a crush on her. She’s oblivious and when she sees Overflow she becomes smitten with him Tini like. Ra'ad is not amused and this leads to his episode.

Galapagus continues to be a Cool Old Guy if he wasn’t already.

He couldn't take the Omnitrix away... but we never saw him actually try. Like, Carl at least tried using tools to remove it from Ben's wrist, Max never even tried to take that thing off of Ben.

Rewatch the first episode. When they found that thing, they were in the middle of the wood, with bately anything aside from vacation stuff and a vehicle. I think it's safe to say that he had none of the tools Carl had. And even then, Max's first reaction was to tell Ben to not mess up with it and look if they could figure out what it was first. Only when it became clear Ben was in danger because of it did he approve of Ben using to defend himself; it was just pragmatism. Also, might I add, Carl's attempt to remove it with tools was actually a pretty dumb move; it's a fucking alien device that can reshape someone into other species and with a self-destruct mechanism powerful enough to blow up the Universe (and unlike Max, Carl likely knew that, assuming Ben mentioned it). Considering all the mess that happens when the Omnitrix does get damaged, Carl is frankly lucky his stupidity didn't result in the thing blowing up by accident.

it never seemed to bother him one second that his grandkids were doing Plumber's work instead of going on normal summer vacation.

Uh... they weren't. They didn't do actual Plumber work until Alien Force. Most stories were just either them running by accident into something strange that threatened them and Ben interfere, or Ben using his powers to help people in need. This is superheroing, not Plumber's work. In fact, when Vilgax, an actual threat that the Plumbers had faced, fist shew up, Max's first reaction was to try to keep Ben the fuck away from him and save him when he was captured. And he clearly was genuinely scared for him.

Afterwards, nothing bothered him at the idea his grandson is getting into his old professional career where people could potentially cage him, eat him, dissect him or sell him away if he ever ended up meeting aliens or went off-planet.

Again, Ben was already getting into situations like this since he got the Omnitrix, so it hardly like becoming a Plumber in training changed a thing. And how do you know Max wasn't bothered by it? He certainly seems like he's always concerned about Ben's well-being.

has he even tried to end the alien madness while it was there?

HOW?! Aliens and other weird things kept coming anyway, it's not like he had any power over it. Even when they weren't actually looking for weird stuff, they found it, and quite often it wasn't even Omnitrix-related.

Not once did we see him attempt to remove the Omnitrix for Ben's sake. Even if he couldn't... has he even tried?

I refer you to what I said above. It's rather clear that trying to forcefully remove an alien device merged with the wearer's DNA is dangerous in itself. Maybe that, unlike his son, he actually understood that due to his Plumber experience.

But like... why not hire their competent, actually fighting, and more traditionally and legally allowed to, parents?

Because there weren't any? :p But joke aside, it's made rather clear that Plumbers had very little presence on Earth at that point aside from Plumber kids, and the higher up aren't interested in dealing with what's happening on Earth. Again, I feel like that was out of necessity due to the urgence of the situation.

If he didn't become a Plumber, he'd get in trouble for doing Plumber activities such as preventing alien threats when he's legally a civilian, which was an episode's plot in AF as they hadn't gone through some military-type training yet (at 15).

... Yeah, I know, that's what I said above. He was made a honorary plumber out of necessity for it to be legal. And no, this had nothing to do with him being in the shadow of his grandfather, as he was already a Living Legend by himself at that point; it was because he and his friends were using Plumber resources and equipment, and that needed to be made legal.

... Soooo, I guess Reboot Ra'ad would be Synaptak basically?

Edited by Theokal3 on Jul 21st 2019 at 2:49:53 PM

I admit I would have liked to see Ben get a Synaptak form, admittedly. He's probably my favorite of the team, personality and design-wise. Though I do still have a soft spot for Ultimos, mainly due to his Superman Substitute nature.

Granted by the time the sequels happened a form like that would have been wholly redundant.

Edited by Etheru on Jul 21st 2019 at 9:22:47 AM

I guess you're right on most points. Still doesn't help how Ben and all these kids were dumped into this role. Sure, it's necessary, but man, these poor kids don't deserve all of that. They sure showed they managed it, but it still rubs me wrong how Ben and his friends were dumped into an intergalactic conflict when most weren't even 16 yet...

Ben's actions are superheroing, but come OV, there's very little distinction with his superheroing and Plumber job. If it involves a threat that's big enough to warrant an arrest into Plumber prison (if it was active) rather than a normal, breakable Earth prison, I see it as Plumber work. And seeing how many of the OG villains were turned to the Plumber prison later on, Ben's action weren't Plumber stuff by name only because the Plumbers weren't active at that point. Otherwise, with Max around, they enter the category of Plumber juniors in field training.

And while Max probably got Plumber experience, he said he only knew some scuttlebutt about it, and was as surprised as everyone else to see it exist. And as for the tools, well... I doubt his Plumber-equipped RV doesn't have any heavy toolery. But since he spent the entire season (and his children and grandchildren's entire life at that point) hiding he was a Plumber, he didn't try. Though it wouldn't have hurt to tell them instead of keeping secrets until Ben meets Vilgax...

Vilgax was a threat to the Plumbers, but so were the other villains. They just were from Ben's new generation of bad guy instead of Max's.

Max is concerned about Ben's well-being, but if it wasn't for OS' writing always having Ben run into reckless situations first then reasoning later, I would've loved to see him concerned while the danger is over, instead of when Ben is running towards danger head first without bothering to listen. The only instances I can recall of that were in "The Alliance" where Ben expressed fear about Vilgax in his nightmare.

Hmm, Plumbers having a little presence on Earth aside from their kids makes sense. But, it raises another issue... DID THEY LEAVE THEIR HYBRID CHILDREN WITH THEIR MAYBE INEXPERIENCED HUMAN SPOUSE, EXPOSING THEM MORE TO THE RISK OF BEING FOUND OUT, SHUNNED, ATTACKED OR CAPTURED BY PEOPLE WHO WANT TO HARM THEM (if the theory of Servantis lying and everyone was really born a hybrid was true, then their parents are partially to blame). We've seen how that went for Kevin when he had no one with the same powers as him to guide him before he met Kwarrel. Where were their parents?! And even if they weren't active... is a retired experienced Plumber less likely to be useful than their inexperienced children?

What I meant with the "grandfather" comment was that, even if Ben didn't get in trouble for not being an official Plumber, if he had kept heroing without joining the Plumbers, at least some people would keep comparing him to Max as he wouldn't have done the "logical" thing and followed in Max's footsteps. One way or another, even if it's never said out loud, Ben is stuck into being compared to Max, downright to the topic of the Omnitrix's intended wearer (granted, it turned out pretty well for Ben and he became an amazing hero).

Sure, it was necessary, but man, it's depressing that Ben, out of necessity as you said, has to assume the role of a space cop, putting his life in danger on daily basis, assume all the weight and pressure that comes with it (seeing how he acts childish down the sequels, my best guess is that it's his way of coping), it's so unfair.

In what universe is it normal to make a kid become a Kid Hero? I know Ben's help is needed, but it's heartbreaking that they have to rely on youngsters with so much to live for. There's a problem when underage people have to worry about the fate of all of existence as we know it instead of their fate once they finish school...

The Plumbers better have therapists and psychologists with them because, oh dear, these kids need it (I'll only namedrop Kevin as he's more obvious than the rest).

That didn't stop them from giving us Bullfrag, or for a more similar case, Buzzshock.

Alsooooooooooooo, the finale is coming! The finale is coming!

Yup.

Meh. Already saw it, and it’s like, really anti climatic. Thought it would be better, but Season 3 has disappointed me a bit.

You're far from being the first one on that.

I guess you're right on most points. Still doesn't help how Ben and all these kids were dumped into this role. Sure, it's necessary, but man, these poor kids don't deserve all of that. They sure showed they managed it, but it still rubs me wrong how Ben and his friends were dumped into an intergalactic conflict when most weren't even 16 yet...

Remind me to never give you my book to read, then.

Ben's actions are superheroing, but come OV, there's very little distinction with his superheroing and Plumber job. If it involves a threat that's big enough to warrant an arrest into Plumber prison (if it was active) rather than a normal, breakable Earth prison, I see it as Plumber work. And seeing how many of the OG villains were turned to the Plumber prison later on, Ben's action weren't Plumber stuff by name only because the Plumbers weren't active at that point.

I won't deny that part, though I question how a "normal, breakable Earth prison" fits here, given OV turned Plumber HQ into one of the most hilarious cases of Cardboard Prison I have seen since Lucky Luke. If a Earth prison is more breakable than it in this setting, then I'm scared to imagine how fragile it is. But yeah, I admit that Plumbers basically became full-time cops in OV.

And as for the tools, well... I doubt his Plumber-equipped RV doesn't have any heavy toolery. But since he spent the entire season (and his children and grandchildren's entire life at that point) hiding he was a Plumber, he didn't try.

Because again, trying to remove a potentially dangerous alien device you know nothing about wasn't necessary a good idea. It could have blown up in their face, or caused Ben to lose his arm. Really, not trying to remove it was the safest choice for Ben here.

Though it wouldn't have hurt to tell them instead of keeping secrets until Ben meets Vilgax...

Maybe he hid it because he wanted to keep them out of that part, actually? I mean, how was it even relevant until Vilgax shew up?

Vilgax was a threat to the Plumbers, but so were the other villains. They just were from Ben's new generation of bad guy instead of Max's.

I don't think so. Plenty of these villains had no connexion to the Plumbers and appeared long after they were gone (remember, Plumbers were disbanded at the time... or at least supposed to be).

DID THEY LEAVE THEIR HYBRID CHILDREN WITH THEIR MAYBE INEXPERIENCED HUMAN SPOUSE, EXPOSING THEM MORE TO THE RISK OF BEING FOUND OUT, SHUNNED, ATTACKED OR CAPTURED BY PEOPLE WHO WANT TO HARM THEM

Yes. Nobody said their parents were perfect people. Though the possibility that they died or were forced to leave in-between for various reasons is a possibility as well.

Sure, it was necessary, but man, it's depressing that Ben, out of necessity as you said, has to assume the role of a space cop, putting his life in danger on daily basis, assume all the weight and pressure that comes with it (seeing how he acts childish down the sequels, my best guess is that it's his way of coping), it's so unfair.

This argument is silly; Ben was already putting his life in danger on regular basis of his own will because he enjoyed being a superhero, and already had the pressure of wearing the Omnitrix (which neither Max nor anyone else forced on him- the Omnitrix was put on him by accident, and he willingly chose to put it back on later). Becoming a Plumber literally changed nothing to his lifestyle aside from making it legal. Heck, I don't even think that he received that many missions from Plumbers.

In what universe is it normal to make a kid become a Kid Hero? I know Ben's help is needed, but it's heartbreaking that they have to rely on youngsters with so much to live for. There's a problem when underage people have to worry about the fate of all of existence as we know it instead of their fate once they finish school...

While I appreciate the idea of exploring a deconstruction of Kid Hero, I'll just point out almost every superhero universe ever has these.

Yeah, you might as well complain about Teen Titans or Legion of Super Heroes or She-Ra or Powerpuff Girls or Adventure Time or Miraculous Ladybug... Truth is that kids' desire to watch heroes of their age fighting crime overrides the logic why it's not done in real life.

But I did always found Plumbers' kids to be a stupid concept. Like bad enough that one Plumber showed up in Darkstar episode, learned about the invasion and decided that Ben has is handled. But the idea to grab random kids who might have no powers (or about as much skill in using them in combat as average Undertown citizen), no training and in worst case scenario no idea what they parents do (if they're as secretive as Max) always seemed stupid to me. And dont get me started on Plumbers's "we're-clearly-alien-but-lets-kill-every-other-alien-we-meet-anyway" Helpers. Honestly, we cant blame Omniverse for not exploring Kid Hero problem if all the previous shows werent interested in that.

Wait, Alan is 10? Around Jimmy's age? When in Omniverse he's working on car and has pierced ear?

I was genuinely wondering what other reasons someone might have to dislike these guys.

Of course you were. I have a question,Theokal 3, was there some specific turning point when you started hating Omniverse or were you against it from the very beginning?

I know I was against Omniverse from the very beginning.

It had none of the maturity and Character Development of Alien Force.

Yeah, Alan's 10 as confirmed by the writers. He was 6 years old in the OV flashbacks, which would make him 5 years old in OS (what do they put in that corn).

And yes, Ben already started being a hero on his own. But he didn't have exactly full knowledge of the stakes and when he does, he tends to hide he's worried. No one told him the risks and my point was, Ben shouldn't have to be a hero. No Watch Ben's universe is a big proof of that because even though Ben's life became boring, it was safer than what Ben Prime went through on daily basis.

Hmm, if the alien parents were that shallow, it wouldn't be a surprise as many adult figures in this show already let us down. If they died, then that pretty much confirms UAF was the franchise's dark emo phase.

Ben's such a warrior because he keeps going, and such a hero at heart because he chooses to. But aside from that, everything else in the universe just sorta kinda happened around him and he had no say in the matter.

Also, for every superhero universe having at least one Kid Hero, I was thinking of Robin and Batman. And how difficult their mentor-apprentice relationship was. It's hard to find a kid superhero who wasn't mentally scarred or forced in some way to fight, who doesn't have a tragic backstory, who never had any trauma of the sort, who willingly came on to join the fight because they want to save others because it's their choice.

Almost every kid superhero in existence has a part of their life that's messed up and part of the basis they're superheroes: they want to prevent the bad things from happening again. This actually makes me wonder if the Evil Bens were described as weak willed because they could've snapped under all of that. If Ben himself isn't above losing himself to all the shit he's going on, then I don't know what to make of that. When you think about it, even if the Kid Hero idea is empowering for the kids watching, it's also concerning that grown adults have to make children fight for them (and I know Ben doesn't have a choice, still sad that they're reduced to that), and it's sorta disturbing we rarely ever see the issue with that.

And Ben only really ever could remove the Omnitrix when it was forcefully taken off or after knowing Azmuth, that's when he finally had a choice and took it, before deciding to put it back on later (and even that was kinda because of the threat of an alien invasion, Ben couldn't exactly say 'no'). Feedback might have not been the big reason but the last straw. Was Ben's addiction to Feedback due to Feedback, like a drug, making him forget the stress that would've come with going back to school and juggling normal life and hero life inside his own house?

As for Max wanting to keep them out to protect them, I heavily doubt it protects them not to tell them about the murderous alien squid that will most likely not ever give up trying to cut his grandson's wrist. It would've been ten times more useful to say he knew where the drones came from and who made them than feigning ignorance about it. Seems pretty relevant to bring it up when Ben described his vision, especially after Rojo put him in the hospital.

Which also makes me wonder why he kept stalling using the "I'll explain later, not now" formula during "Secrets". Telling Ben and Gwen about Vilgax wouldn't make the bad guys arrive faster, if anything they're prepared for that sort of stuff, and Ben might know not to mess with Vilgax if he heard the guy survived a nuclear missile exploding on him. Even Gwen herself was pretty upset he didn't tell them earlier in "Truth", until they got interrupted.

As for your book, no worries on that. I don't mind when writers make characters suffer, I mind when in-universe characters treat others unfairly, a Values Dissonance type of deal (unless the characters are purposefully made problematic to illustrate a problem, which I doubt they're doing. I've written a fic or two once before, I've put Ben into enough suffering in a oneshot myself (90% of it was suffering, the 10% were before the plot started and the aftermath).

Edited by Ungrateful-Wolf on Jul 22nd 2019 at 10:31:35 AM

Huh. So, how much did you watched it? I'm not saying "you quit to early, it was just getting good!", I'm just curious.

Of course you were. I have a question,Theokal 3, was there some specific turning point when you started hating Omniverse or were you against it from the very beginning?

I wasn't very enthousiastic about it since the new design for Ben came out, as I found it a severe downgrade from the AF design, but I still was willing to give it a chance and try to look for positive (even though problems started piling up). "Rules of Engagement", I would say, was the episode where I gave up on it being good and genuinely started hating the show. Though looking back now with my hatred calming down, I do think the show had some highlight.

Yeah, Alan's 10 as confirmed by the writers. He was 6 years old in the OV flashbacks, which would make him 5 years old in OS (what do they put in that corn).

I honestly suspect he was intended to be older before but they ended up changing their mind. His first design doesn't look 10 at all even for Alien Force; AF had some flashbacks showing 10 years old Ben and he clearly look younger.

And yes, Ben already started being a hero on his own. But he didn't have exactly full knowledge of the stakes and when he does, he tends to hide he's worried. No one told him the risks

Yeah, no one told him the risks because nobody knew at the time. The risks became very clear after that and both Gwen and Max warned him about it. He decided to be hero anyway. You could argue he was just a kid and didn't realize at the time, but even after that as you say he did realize it, and continued. Again, it never was forced on him. He even had the opportunity to stop for five years, and ended up returning to it, this time with full knowledge of the implications.

and my point was, Ben shouldn't have to be a hero. No Watch Ben's universe is a big proof of that because even though Ben's life became boring, it was safer than what Ben Prime went through on daily basis.

Really? My impression when watching this episode was more that Ben Prime's life was better. Sure it was safer, but No Watch Ben never developped a close relationship with Gwen, for example, and he clearly seemed like something in his life was missing. He also ended up becoming Plumber toward the end anyway. I honestly think Ben being a hero worked for the best in this setting (or at least, that's the intended message as I understand it; whether it's a good message is another story).

Hmm, if the alien parents were that shallow, it wouldn't be a surprise as many adult figures in this show already let us down. If they died, then that pretty much confirms UAF was the franchise's dark emo phase.

My point is, we don't know, and I suspect the writers didn't think it was important to detail. I never pretended AUF was perfect in that area, though it's still by far my favourite era of the show.

Ben's such a warrior because he keeps going, and such a hero at heart because he chooses to. But aside from that, everything else in the universe just sorta kinda happened around him and he had no say in the matter.

Yeah, and my point is that never was forced on him by Max or any other adult, hence why I feel suggesting Max endoctrinated him is ludicrous. You can't blame coincidences for making him a Weirdness Magnet, because that's not a concious act.

As for Max wanting to keep them out to protect them, I heavily doubt it protects them not to tell them about the murderous alien squid that will most likely not ever give up trying to cut his grandson's wrist.

Oh, you mean tell him about something he didn't know? For most of the show Max had no idea Vilgax was the one after Ben.

Seems pretty relevant to bring it up when Ben described his vision, especially after Rojo put him in the hospital.

Why? What use exactly would it have been to tell him "a squid-like Evil Overlord who is the most feared being in the galaxy is out to get you", aside from making him panic? Especially since at that point Max wasn't exactly sure. It's not like Max knew Vilgax's weaknesses or other info that could have been useful.

As for your book, no worries on that. I don't mind when writers make characters suffer, I mind when in-universe characters treat others unfairly, a Values Dissonance type of deal (unless the characters are purposefully made problematic to illustrate a problem, which I doubt they're doing.

Still, you made a point that the whole Child Soldier thing bothers you. That's what I'm concerned about.

Edited by Theokal3 on Jul 22nd 2019 at 12:48:40 PM

I watched the episode where Ben fakes being captured by Malware.

It was more than enough for me.

Just reading through some of the synopses for other episodes made me sick.

I agree regarding Alan. He struck me as being 12 / 13 years old in UAF.

Edited by BrightLight on Jul 22nd 2019 at 3:50:32 AM

I feel like we went a bit overboard with this...

My original point was that Ben's situation was really terrible to begin with (it got better later on but things were really wrong at the start) and while he managed the later stuff, Ben is really not in the best of cases. And while Max was there, I'm not sure he exactly helped with the other issue. He was there to support Ben and Gwen, but unless the show ever shows otherwise (and it didn't in the sequels so even less chances of seeing it), he only ever limited the damage.

He didn't give Ben and Gwen a big talk about the threats they could potentially face now that Ben got the Omnitrix, he only ever warned them about the stuff happening either when it was happening, or when the stakes got really big (such as for alien invasions). And it wasn't better in the sequels, especially Omniverse where he became such an irritable old man.

I'm not saying Max is a bad person, but he wasn't exactly the best grandfather/mentor Ben and Gwen make him up to be at times. There are times where he acts more like a tool, which is exactly how the Rooters manipulated him after changing his memories. He's not a terrible character for that, but he does seem overrated compared to how most portray him.

As for the Child Soldier thing, it is what I mind. I minded the fact Ben became that and that it didn't seem to bother anyone in-universe (except Ben's parents who eventually understood in their own way that Ben didn't have a choice in the matter and that he wasn't becoming a hooligan but doing the right thing). I wouldn't mind your book unless it excuses that sort of deal more than canon does or valorizes it.

Edited by Ungrateful-Wolf on Jul 22nd 2019 at 11:08:08 AM

I feel like we went a bit overboard with this...

Yeah, we did. Let's try to calm down for now^^ I apologize, I tend to get a bit too enthousiastic with these.

But yeah, to summarize I think that what's bothering you is that you wish Ben's whole Kid Hero thing would have been treated with more self-awareness about how messed up it should be when the show presents it as a good, cool thing. Kinda ironic because had they done that, that'd have quickly got darker and angstier than AUF, which you accuse of being the "Dark Emo Phase" :p

Personally, though, my own understanding was that Ben enjoyed being a hero. It's been overall implied that yes, he does realizes the hardship and danger, and all the problems that come with it... but at the end of the day, he'd still never change a thing, because it's all Worth It. Because the Omnitrix gave him everything he always wanted even before gaining it: the mean to make a difference and help people. Well... that and cool superpowers and world-fame^^

I personally think this sense of optimism and wonder is part of what made Ben popular to begin with, and likely also part of the reason the choice to have him remove the Omnitrix for 5 years was seen as OOC by some AF haters. And even then, Ben admits at the beginning of AF that he loved wearing the Omnitrix.

Edited by Theokal3 on Jul 22nd 2019 at 1:34:32 PM

Hey guys I hope I am not disturbing you, but what do you think of my theory? What do you guys think about how will the Alien Force reboot be?