Needs Help: Badass Damsel

Well, there are a couple things wrong with this trope including being a snowclone, having an ambiguous name and too much overlapping with Badass in Distress, so I left it as 'needs help.' Okay, first, it's clearly another Badass snowclone and we're trying to get rid of those where it isn't appropriate. Second, the name implies that the damsel is a badass for being a damsel or something. Third, there's nothing that really differentiates this from Badass in Distress. Both tropes say they're about a character who is normally badass that is now a damsel.

Thus, I suggest we rework this trope and name it something clearer. I've seen the suggestion that Badass Damsel is really about a character who appears to be your standard Damsel in Distress but fights against captivity in some manner rather than passively waiting for rescue, even if their attempts amount to nothing. That seems like a good starting place to me.

Fixed the tag.

539 wicks and 1096 inbounds, FTR.

Badass in Distress and Badass Damsel seem to actually be opposites. Badass Damsel is someone who is normally a damsel (or seems like they would be) kicking ass, while Badass in Distress is someone who is normally badass suddenly becoming a "damsel."

That seems fairly clear to me. Could use a better name, though.

edited 23rd Jun '13 8:56:26 AM by Larkmarn

The description of Badass Damsel indicates the opposite though. "Yeah, they get in trouble sometimes, but they're badasses so people don't mind" while Badass in Distress seems to approach the issue from the opposite angle. "Man, he's a badass, but he does get in trouble sometimes." This is not helped by the fact that the description is pretty rambling.

Yeah, the descriptions need serious trimming for sure. But the base of both tropes seem clear to me.

We already have the long term thread for the badass tropes. Why not figure this out there?

Because the way that thread works is by sending things over here to work out individually so that more people know what's going on. There are about five people who respond in there.

^^ Even if your distinction is entirely accurate, I'm not sure it's actually a tropeable difference.

edited 23rd Jun '13 10:18:52 AM by Arha

This could be one of these trope distinctions that rely on tropers splitting hairs. Considering that these usually lead to misuse, a misuse check may be appropriate.

I read Badass Damsel as a damsel you really shouldn't turn your back against if you've kidnapped her. It's still someone who serves the general role of a damsel, but not a Neutral Female. I think the description and most examples (some need moving) supports it as an opposite to Badass in Distress, which is a badass character who takes the Distress Ball so someone else can take the stage and get some focus.

Wick check of the first 30 wicks, discounting Badass Damsel itself and similar pages.

• Ace Lightning: Trope used to indicate a prisoner fighting captivity in some manner.
• A Certain Magical Index Other: Prisoner fighting captivity
• Action Girl: I'm not sure. Aren't these tropes nearly mutually exclusive? I'll say misuse.
• Adventure Time: Fionna and Cake: Prisoner fighting captivity
• Adventure Time: Main: Prisoner fighting captivity, essentially.
• Aladdin: No context, but from what I remember of the movie it was basically prisoner resisting captivity.
• Albert Campion: No context.
• Alundra: No context.
• Amakusa 1637: Prisoner fighting captivity, essentially.
• American Dad!: No context.
• Angel Coulby: Unclear. I have no idea what it's talking about.
• Anime & Manga: Prisoner fighting captivity.
• Apocalypto: Lumping this into the 'prisoner fighting captivity' results since the scenario is the same, though 'captivity' in this case means a hostile environment.
• Aqua: Unclear, but probably prisoner fighting captivity.
• Arrow: Correct usage. Both usages.
• Attack of the Clones: Prisoner fighting captivity, essentially.
• Attempted Rape: Um. Correct usage, I think? Actually I'm not even sure she's a damsel in the first place, so let's call this unclear.
• Avengers Earths Mightiest Heroes Supporting Cast: I'll call this correct.
• Azure Dreams: Correct usage.
• Bakugan: No context.
• Barajou no Kiss: PFC, I think.
• Barbie in The Princess and the Pauper: PFC.
• Barbie: Princess Charm School: PFC.
• Batman & Mr. Freeze: SubZero: Correct usage and PFC.
• Batman Beyond: I'm not sure. Let's say correct.
• Batman: Supporting Cast: Correct usage.
• Batman: The Brave and the Bold: This is either misuse or PFC.
• Batter Up!: Correct usage and PFC, I think.
• Became Their Own Antithesis: No idea.

Well, that ended up showing different results than I expected. Note that the prisoner fighting captivity classification is fairly broad from directly resisting to attempting to escape. Of the 30 wicks, it's overwhelming in favor of PFC, though a decent amount are unclear. So again, I suggest we make the trope about that and fix the description accordingly. Furthermore, let's get it out of the badass trope family since the character isn't necessarily a badass, even if brave.

edited 23rd Jun '13 10:59:19 AM by Arha

So you mean write it like a trope about a prisoner/damsel fighting (unexpectedly?) back?

Yes. Perhaps not directly, but clearly not just sitting back and awaiting rescue.

I find that a good way to break out of the Badass mire while still keeping the essence of the trope. It's essentially a subversion of a damsel.

edited 23rd Jun '13 2:06:54 PM by AnotherDuck

Now that we're more or less settled on what this trope is about, let's get the ball rolling on rename titles, shall we? I suggest Combative Captive.

Damsel Badass Moment - I see this and Bad Ass In Distress as being about a charachter breaking out of their typical role in the story in a certain way. So this name is to show that.

Damsel out of Distress would highlight the Bad Ass In Distress distinction.

edited 23rd Jun '13 6:06:28 PM by kiukiuclk

Considering 'damsel' is a real word with an actual meaning, I object to using it as shorthand for referring to our Damsel in Distress trope.

In other words, "Badass Damsel" is effectively a synonym of "Action Girl". Since that's not what we mean, don't snowclone off 'damsel'.

edited 24th Jun '13 8:46:30 AM by Spark9

I agree with what Spark 9 just said. "Damsel Badass Moment" misuses "damsel" and preserves the overused word "badass."

So, what's a good name for Badass Damsel that includes neither Badass nor Damsel?

Maybe something like Defying Her Kidnapping so it's not a snow clone? Something with the word "Rebeling" might work too. Rebeling Her Kidnapping doesn't sound as good IMO though.

What about Defiant Captive?

I think we need to solidify the actual definition of the trope, before we talk about renames. Is it just a subversion of Damsel in Distress, where they free themselves, rather than needing rescuing? Does it count if they don't actually escape, but at least try to rather than sitting around waiting to be rescued? How about if they can't even pull off a decent escape attempt, but they're uncooperative and combative instead of meekly and passively waiting for rescue?

Yes.

Yes, although I have some doubts about that last item.

They don't need to succeed. What matters is that they aren't waiting for someone to save them but are rather doing something on their own. Attacking their captor, trying to escape or sabotaging the bad guys efforts if they happen to be needed for something. I don't think a merely defiant attitude is enough to count. Active attempts must be made to do something to change the situation in some manner.

Not just attempts, but at least some margin of success or practicality.