The Constructive Criticism Thread

@jacksonk987: Please place your work on the Sandbox.Con Crit Thread to queue up.

~Merseyuser 1: It's now your turn. Please come in and bring your work for Constructive Criticism.

Thank you.

This is my work.

Given a full Continuity Reboot it's a work in progress.

Setting: 2020, with an Alternate History of no COVID-19 pandemic and some other changes; 2002 for the past. Like Reality, Unless Noted apart from the time travel element. No other fantasy etc. settings.

Antagonist/Villains: No Antagonist: the conflict comes from adjusting to 2002 and being there at their 2020 ages.

Characters:

I've got my characters travelling back in time to relive a festival/Christmas event they couldn't enjoy as they were only 17 in 2002 (no under-18s and the event had alcohol, music etc.), and go to a big event - that in December 2002 was widely publicized and covered in the media. They want to Time Travel for nostalgia reasons.

The festival has no real life counterpart; it's original to the setting.

These are the three main characters:

• Victoria (Tori, Vix), a 36-year-old businesswoman and events manager, she's become wealthy through this, despite being wealthy is no Corrupt Corporate Executive. She's The Fixer, of sorts, in a good way.

In terms of personality, Tori is a Nice Girl, an Anonymous Benefactor, and physically is a Dark Skinned Redhead. She's modelled on Hannah John-Kamen physically - so No Celebrities Were Harmed here in this case. She's very much a Girly Girl in terms of esthetic.

• Allison (Allie), a 36-year-old Canadian who's still a party girl, 10 years on, and somehow doesn't tire of being one, has a job as a nightclub dancer, but no day job. She's 36 but looks younger, around 24-25. Allie's got good knowledge of food and drink, is a vegetarian but not a Straw Vegetarian and something of The Juggernaut (in a good way) despite her small size of 5"2. Allison is a fairly sensible-but-fun woman. A very Girly Girl but mistaken for tomboy sometimes which is a Berserk Button.

• Ava, a 37-year-old with a double-barrelled name (Italian-Canadian and Japanese-Canadian surname), half-Italian-Canadian, half-Japanese-Canadian, and Ambiguously Brown. Ava's personality is she's generally sensible, kind and she has Post-Stress Overeating as a major character flaw.

All are close friends who've known each other since they were 18.

---

Starting point of the story: The characters are enjoying a meal (location not decided) and looking back over old photos, including one of them in 2002, when they were at a party and one notices a poster for an event which gets them saying:

Allison: I wish I could time travel back and see what all the fuss was about, remember how, back in the day, there were posters everywhere for this festival? We were too young to get in because we were under 19 and the event didn't let in under-21s either, so couldn't see what the festival was about... and then it disappeared only 5 years later! I remember how in 2002 they kept on hyping it up.

But then suddenly one of the characters discovers a way to Time Travel.

---

Alcohol drinking age as 19 is set due to it being in Canada.

The setting is Lighter and Softer but not Denser and Wackier, and I'm stuck between several outcomes:

• A Close-Enough Timeline being created
• An Alternate Timeline being formed.
• Rubber-Band History

and which could work well, what's the advantages/disadvantages of each?

I want to try and avoid the Timey-Wimey Ball being a problem here and working out how to make time travel consistent is one of the problems.

Only One Me Allowed Right Now isn't going to happen for obvious reasons, but they may interact with their younger selves (and this could set up some comedy scenes, possibly).

Also, working out a major conflict for the characters apart from the "go to the event, trying to get home after the festival".

There is a Central Theme of "maybe the past wasn't quite as good as hoped, but it's OK to be nostalgic.

As it is, this is set in a universe where it's largely the same as now aside from the Time Travel.

It's a standalone work that's a one-shot, although it may generate spin-off stories relating to the Alternate History.

This is a section of writing:

Victoria looked around; it was Toronto, sure, but not as she knew it. There weren't many people on smartphones, and there were large promo posters for a major event coming "6-8 DECEMBER 2002".

Victoria, Ava and Allison had landed in a suburb where there were rusted-out old 1980s cars; an old Chrysler Le Baron sedan sat languishing, having seen better days, and two kids running back and forth playing some game.

Loud rap music with misogynistic lyrics that wouldn't have been popular in 2020 were heard from a car and two guys were smoking what appeared to be cannabis and looking stoned. One man wore a sleeveless top, the other guy in a plaid hunting vest that looked more suited to hunting ducks than a Toronto suburb!

"How the hell did we end up here? It looks nothing like this now... or well, in 2020, it's very different, very upmarket", Ava said. "I thought if we were going to time travel, we'd at least end up in the centre of it all... don't know why... maybe our time travel's screwed itself up for destination."

Allison was pleased they'd at least got there but agreed partially with Ava, although she wasn't used to being in such an area, having grown up in a wealthy-ish neighborhood where people owned big houses and luxury Mercedes-Benz cars, rather than tall apartments and rusted-out cars.

Nearby, the sound of fire crackling as homeless people sat near a bin making a de facto fireplace could be heard. In 2020, it wasn't like this... that part had been well gentrified by 2004, just before that recession. A ghettoblaster could be heard, playing yet more of the same rap music which was obnoxious enough to some quarters of today's society, but back in the day, was OK.

Edited by Merseyuser1 on May 7th 2021 at 7:50:03 PM

Typically, here at Constructive Criticism we post a link to our work up in the sandbox link at the top of the thread. We go in order according to that list. I haven't been active on this thread the past month so I dont know who is up next. Also, please note that I do not crit outlines, only excerpts of the writing, usually between 5-10 pages.

"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."

Nobody in this thread should be critiquing production documents not intended for audience consumption, which includes but is not limited to: outlines, ideas, concepts, character profiles, worldbuilding notes, etc. The idea is that you can have good notes and production documents and ideas behind a work, but that does not necessarily indicate that anything described in those notes and whatnot will be executed well in the finished product.

Per the rules:

Do you have an actual piece of writing for us to critique?

Edited by CrystalGlacia on May 11th 2021 at 9:32:22 AM

"Jack, you have debauched my sloth."

Crystal Glacia and De Marquis: I have sent a PM notifying him about it. If he doesn't respond within the next 24 hours, his turn will be passed.

I have nowhere to host it and am copying from a Pages document saved on my HD. It's intended for public consumption (when it's published and there's a host, I haven't been able to find a good free webhost).

This is the actual text from a part of my story:

Victoria looked around; it was Toronto, sure, but not as she knew it. There weren't many people on smartphones, and there were large promo posters for a major event coming "6-8 DECEMBER 2002".

Victoria, Ava and Allison had landed in a suburb where there were rusted-out old 1980s cars; an old Chrysler LeBaron sedan sat languishing, having seen better days, and two kids running back and forth playing some game.

Loud rap music with misogynistic lyrics that wouldn't have been popular in 2020 were heard from a car and two guys were smoking what appeared to be cannabis and looking stoned. One man wore a sleeveless top, the other guy in a plaid hunting vest that looked more suited to hunting ducks than a Toronto suburb!

"How the hell did we end up here? It looks nothing like this now... or well, in 2020, it's very different, very upmarket", Ava said. "I thought if we were going to time travel, we'd at least end up in the centre of it all... don't know why... maybe our time travel's screwed itself up for destination."

Allison was pleased they'd at least got there but agreed partially with Ava, although she wasn't used to being in such an area, having grown up in a wealthy-ish neighborhood where people owned big houses and luxury Mercedes-Benz cars, rather than tall apartments and rusted-out cars.

Nearby, the sound of fire crackling as homeless people sat near a bin making a de facto fireplace could be heard. In 2020, it wasn't like this... that part had been well gentrified by 2004, just before that recession. A ghettoblaster could be heard, playing yet more of the same rap music which was obnoxious enough to some quarters of today's society, but back in the day, was OK.

Edited by Merseyuser1 on May 12th 2021 at 2:17:03 PM

If you have a Google account, paste it into a GoogleDoc and use the blue Share button in the top-left to set the permissions from "Restricted" to "Anyone with the link can comment". This will not interfere with your first publication rights, you are extremely, extremely unlikely to have your work stolen here, and you can easily switch access back to Restricted as soon as you're done receiving feedback. This is how we prefer people submit their work for critique because it makes it easier for critics to mark specific things in your writing.

Besides, um... I don't really have much to say about your excerpt. The prose is serviceable and I'm not seeing anything that significantly impedes understanding; there's some passive voice ("was heard"), punctuation belongs inside of quotation marks in dialogue (should be upmarket," Ava), and some other minor grammatical quibbles, but it's too short to see how you've portrayed and developed your characters, how you've developed the plot, and how well you convince the audience why we should care about your characters and their time travel plot. You can tell us those things out-of-universe all you want, but we won't have any way of knowing if any of that is executed well in-story without seeing what you plan on showing to your readers.

"Jack, you have debauched my sloth."

Plus, you can use the opportunity to do some additions and corrections if you need to.

I'll move it to Google Docs over the next few days.

Here's another excerpt from the same early draft:

It was wet, cold and icy that day. Victoria had really wanted to find a burger bar, but Allison wanted some Italian food, and Ava was more in the mood for good American food, although what'd be defined as American would be anyone's guess.

"Look, we've not got long", Allison said, "We've really got to find SOMEWHERE to eat before we can get going, it's gonna be a long drive... at least three to four hours on the road".

"Yes, but as well as that, our car's safe isn't it?" Ava said in a worried tone. "Stupid decision to park up in that neighborhood, wasn't it, just because it was $1 parking. Besides, I'm hungry, gotta eat soon, find a good American-themed restaurant. I've just got that need for American food."

The three of them needed to compromise, but Allison started to worry about how long they'd be stuck in 2002 for.

"We only intended to come here for a week or so, but how do we know if we'll find a way out", Allison said, trying to change the subject. "But we need to decide what to eat and where, I've got the cash, now, we all need to make a decision, mmmkay?"

In the background, a fender-bender happened; a guy in a Mazda Miata crashed into an old Volkswagen Jetta sedan. "GODDAMNIT, YOU IDIOT" a man shouted, as the two drivers began arguing.

"What the hell was that?", Ava said, in a shocked voice. The three of them turned to see the fender-bender.

Edited by Merseyuser1 on May 12th 2021 at 3:14:33 PM

In that case, let's bump the next person up while we wait for Merseyuser 1 to get their document ready. Which means Adept Gaderius would be up next!

Award-winning screenwriter. Directed some movies. Trying to earn a Creator page. I do feedback here.

I am here now. This is the script you've been waiting for: Into the Dark Unknown

I remember the first time you submitted this, back in February. Back then, you called it "The Cavern."

At that time, most of us told you that the script was too long and verbose, and you spent too much time in the build up before getting to the main action, and too little foreshadowing. I'm glad to see that you have mostly addressed those concerns, cutting the page count down from 40 to 19. Well done.

This means that I can move on to more advanced criticisms. I'm guessing that English is a second language for you? There are many grammatical mistakes, including word tenses. The two radio broadcasts need to be converted to past tense, for example.

Although I see that you have addressed our previous concerns, in some cases you didn't go far enough. The dialogue of the children, although way better now, is still somewhat stilted. It's better, but still reads like very advanced, nerdy children. If you intend to make that impression of the characters, you should clarify that in the initial description of the children—that they are classically "nerdy" or "geeky" in appearance, to clue in the audience visually. Or, if that isn't nuanced enough, come up with some other visual clues that these are unusually well educated children. Right now only Inez is described that way, due to the book she has in her lap.

I still think the foreshadowing is too subtle. The radio broadcasts are ok, but not enough. It's traditional in visual media (and text literature too) that when characters are approaching a strange or surreal adventure well outside what is considered normal or possible, the terrain around them should reflect this in appearance. There is an opportunity to do that here, because you don't describe the tidal flats at all when the children enter them. What you should do is emphasize how different it is from the pristine beach they just left their parents on. Strange creatures, a different texture to the sand, even a different smell could be described in order to build up an other-world atmosphere in preparation for what the children encounter within the cave.

I'm having difficulty imagining the cave entrance. Is it in a cliff? Are the children at the bottom of this cliff? If so, they should spend some time gazing at it as it recedes into the background, comment how high it is, that they can't see their parents anymore (an important cue there), etc. The (what I assume are) carved maniples at the entrance is a nice touch, but you need to describe them more: are they dark or light, deep or shallow, foreboding or interesting, etc. Again, build-up.

At the moment the children begin entering the cave, an interesting visual issue crops up. Up until now, all the children have been together, more or less within sight of each other, so specifying a specific point of view character wasn't important. But now they leave each other, however briefly, so I think you need to decide exactly when "the camera" as it were, enters the cavern. The audience's perspective should follow one of the children as they enter the cave. I would suggest Barbara, since she goes last. In that case, you need to describe what she experiences as she (ie, the audience) enters it. I don't think a cut-away is a good idea here. This is the moment that the protagonists of the story leave the ordinary world behind and enter the world of the adventure. This, therefore, needs to be a dramatic moment. I would suggest that Barbara (the audience) have trouble making out what is in the dark cave, and only sounds clue us in as to what is happening, at least for a moment. However you decide to describe it, make the experience at least a little confusing and disorienting, at least until the dialogue within the cave begins, at which point some degree of normalcy can return (which will make a nice set up for when the creature is seen).

This is a really good story idea, and the script is coming along nicely. I wish you luck with it.

Edited by DeMarquis on May 12th 2021 at 10:40:17 AM

"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."

As reference, can you give me a version of the dialogue that flows better and realistically age-appropriate alongside a revised version of the radio news broadcast?

Edited by AdeptGaderius on May 12th 2021 at 9:24:47 AM

Standard not-a-lawyer disclaimer here, but I would advise against that for copyright reasons. If DeMarquis rewrites it for you (as you just requested) and you use it without the two of you signing some kind of written agreement, you'd muddy the waters of whether or not you own that particular part of the script. As far as I know, your safest bet is to just take our notes and do the best you can with them.

Copyright is a hell of a beast and I'd rather not see fellow Tropers get stuck in that weirdness — even if we are all friendly here.

I'm in the middle of working on someone else's movie set this week and next week, so I can't know for sure when I'll have time to read your script — but soon! (I'll also see if I can crack your "examples" question from a different angle.)

Edited by AwSamWeston on May 13th 2021 at 4:21:05 AM

Award-winning screenwriter. Directed some movies. Trying to earn a Creator page. I do feedback here.

In addition to those concerns, I would also be hesitant to rewrite that much for you because a) I would rather you practice this until you are better at it, and b) that's extra work for me, and I'm lazy.

I do have some advice for writing pre-teen dialogue. You can find it here. Bottom line, they would be convincing with a more basic vocabulary. The best way is to read some books aimed at that age level, like the first Harry Potter. Hermione is what you are aiming for.

"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."

(Thanks for that link ^. I also need some information on pre-teen and teen dialogue so that's right on my way)

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

I did post my turn here a few weeks ago, I now have a link hosted on Google docs for my story here if you want to give constructive criticism.

It's only early days for it now, so this is the beginning.

Yeah, it's been a full month without any new feedback. Let's move on to Merseyuser 1.

Award-winning screenwriter. Directed some movies. Trying to earn a Creator page. I do feedback here.

So my question is: What is this story about? As it stands, you have seven pages that read as a "Day in the Life of" your protag, but there is no conflict, no unifying theme, I can't even tell what genre this is. So what kind of story do you intend to tell here?

"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."

To be fair, it's a work in progress and the finished thing won't be the same as now.

This is Slice of Life in genre, there's No Antagonist; soon it'll focus on the character's travels.

The only real conflict comes from trying to adapt to new places.

I'm trying to tell a Slice of Life story about two different characters, switching between them.

Edited by Merseyuser1 on Jun 24th 2021 at 1:34:09 PM

Ok, so in that type of story, the conflict is generally inside the character. Character development has to carry most of the load generating the narrative tension. There is something she wants in life, but it's she can't have or achieve until she has learned something about herself, and overcome some personal flaw. The events she experiences during her slice of life adventure are deliberately designed to push her in that direction.

So the question is, how detailed have gotten designing her character template?

Oh wait. I just noticed that you said two characters(this wasn't in your sample). Do these chars meet? If so, what happens?

Edited by DeMarquis on Jun 25th 2021 at 12:32:43 PM

"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."

Okay, but in that case I need to ask what kind of criticism you're looking for. I mean, we could critique the structure of the beginning, but if that's not what you're planning for the beginning to actually look like, critiquing it seems pointless.

Edited by MichaelKatsuro on Jun 25th 2021 at 9:39:00 AM

FINALLY, there's new stuff here! It feel's like it's been 3000 years since the last time I saw new stuff here!

Thousand Dreamers, Watashi wa Saikyo, and Believe slap so hard.

I've actually got a small conflict in the works; it's not really a villain, but an antagonist of sorts.

There's also another conflict; a Race Against the Clock to deliver something for a friend (heavy item).

Cops pull her over mistaking her van for a stolen one that's near-identical, a case of Mistaken for Thief, but the cops here are portrayed as incompetent.

The only problem is how to make this situation funny in some sort of way without going too dark and edgy since my work is generally Lighter and Softer in tone.

As for the two characters, they already know each other and are friends.

I've just cut out some of the characters from the work that didn't make sense.

My problem is writing this effectively.

—-

I am looking for critique on the beginning of this, ensuring I'm not writing an Info Dump or making it too boring, but setting out some Worldbuilding.

Edited by Merseyuser1 on Jun 25th 2021 at 10:29:25 AM

I would still need to know more details about your protag's proposed character development during the course of the story. I can't evaluate your writing sample without knowing the ultimate goal.

Edited by DeMarquis on Jun 25th 2021 at 10:31:32 AM

"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."