General Page Quote Discussion:

I'm not saying that this shouldn't have a quote, just that all the ones here are problematic.

Contains 20% less fat than the leading value brand!

The quote for Failure Hero relies entirely on a pothole in the speaker's name.

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?

Continuing discussion from this ATT query

Quotes.Double Standard Abuse Female On Male includes a couple Real Life quotes. The discussion in that ATT thread noted that Real Life examples are not allowed on that article, and quotes for tropes under NRLEP are usually discouraged from having real life-adjacent quotes.

Other users (including me) noted that those two RL quotes are a little unscrupulous; One quote attributes a Harvard doctor, but we can't find this quote online, or anything about the study it claims to come from, or anything about the person who supposedly said it. From what I can gather, the second quote is from an MRA-affiliated personality, and that quote seems to be that person's personal opinion.

Should these two quotes go? They were both added by the same user, who also added a quote about the Johnny Depp/Amber Heard case to this quotes page (which was removed following discussion).

Edited by thelivingtoad on Feb 28th 2020 at 7:57:48 AM

If there is reasonable doubt as to the quote's existence, it should go.

The quote on Last Lousy Point doesn't really describe the trope.

Keet cleanup

Okay, I removed that one. How about the other one, which is now on the bottom of that page?

Thanks (and what a perfect avatar for that username) I've removed the other quote as well. The person who gave it has a serious agenda behind saying that rather than trying to explain that men are often disbelieved when they experience domestic violence (plus the NRLEP issue).

Admittedly, I have an agenda as well behind opposing those quotes... But I think "wanting things to be correct reflections of the domestic violence field and its body of knowledge" is a pretty good agenda

The quote in Never Work with Children or Animals is just restating the trope name, though I don't particularly like any of the alternatives in the Quotes subpage.

Edited by Adept on Feb 29th 2020 at 12:52:22 AM

I mean, it's true that, for example, men don't have many, if any, domestic abuse shelters, and that they're often laughed at or ganged up on if a woman is abusing them, as shown in a famous and recorded study- hell, people even joined the woman in beating up the man, solely based on the assumption that he deserved it.

But, quotes are not the place to spread an agenda. Nor are they the place to spread misinformation; ironically, this harms the goal the person is trying to push, and making their stance seem less reputable and less likely to be taken seriously.

Keep these quotes off. This is a real problem, sure, but this isn't the time, place, or way, to address it.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Secret Government Warehouse has the exact same quote as Warehouse 13. I prefer it on the series page, but I'm not seeing any obvious alternatives on the trope page. What was that Indy quote on the matter?

What about this?

Ultimate Secret Wars

Awesomeness by Analysis currently has the following as a quote:

Given that Weblinks Are Not Examples is a thing, I figured it needed change, I changed it to the following:

It stuck for a few days before being reverted, cited it being 'unexplained' (Despite citing Weblinks Are Not Examples, something I have cleared up with the one removing it), so I go here: Would anyone be opposed to the change?

Edited by Theharbo on Mar 4th 2020 at 10:20:20 AM

You clearly misunderstood the idea. Weblinks Are Not Examples basically means that you can't add trope examples that are just a link to an image or video elsewhere, and expect people to figure it out there, because of reasons cited there. Nobody ever said that weblinks are not allowed in any form. This is, in fact, an example of a good use of weblinks: as Cracked is a website and does not lend itself to the "Episode X" format to list individual entries (as a series, where we would link both the series and the episode recap), then a link to the specific Cracked article where the quote was taken from allows the reader to follow and check it, if so desired. If not, the text as it is is still useful: it provides a relevant quote, and says where it was taken from.

Ultimate Secret Wars

My problem with that is that, despite how well fitting it might be, it still runs into the first two problems listed on the Weblinks Are Not Examples page.

• It's a distraction. Instead of reading through examples on a trope or work page, readers are now somewhere else, on another website, watching videos and doing all manner of activities irrelevant to the article they were just reading (and which we'd much rather prefer they stay engaged with).

• URL links are not guaranteed to work forever. While in the short term, a video or website may be working and people may be able to view the relevant content, if at any point a video is removed or a website shuts down or puts a block or restriction on the linked content, nobody is going to be able to view it or understand the example.

The latter point especially irks me. What happens if Cracked undergoes a website reorganisation? It'd lead straight to a 404, which would be just short of a Tyop on the Cover, given that this is in the page quote.

Edited by Theharbo on Mar 4th 2020 at 6:15:24 PM

A citation is not the same thing as content. It doesn’t matter if the link stops working, because the actual content is still sufficient without the supplement, and we could just keep the quote without a link, and the first point when used the way you are using it would suggest we not have any external links, period, which is kind of pointless to try and enforce and would only be more of an inconvenience for those who do want the extra context.

SoundCloud

Well said.

The Dunkey quote on Last Lousy Point, as well as the Pro ZD quote on the quotes page, are just about tedious fetch quests, not one specific collectable that's an extreme pain to get.

Edited by rjd1922 on Mar 4th 2020 at 12:41:59 PM

Keet cleanup

With a quote that removed from the trope, it’d be better not to even have a quote. The ProZD quote would be better off removed too.

Incidentally, I hold the same opinion regarding the quote for Gameplay Derailment, which I brought up once before, but seems to have gotten buried.

Edited by ShinyCottonCandy on Mar 4th 2020 at 1:40:57 PM

SoundCloud

Wow, that Gameplay Derailment quote is terrible.

I'm sure there's a quote out there about one of the Sonic games that fits better. Probably one about the infinite Knuckles jump glitch.

Wait a second, what's the difference between Gameplay Derailment and Not the Intended Use?

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Warrior Monk has the same quote as Religion is Magic; I think it fits better on Religion is Magic. The quote isn't even referring to a monk. I prefer this one, but I'm worried it doesn't work great out of context:

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Still need an alternative quote for Secret Government Warehouse.

I am utterly confused here in regards to the two rules on Weblinks Are Not Examples

1. It's a distraction. Instead of reading through examples on a trope or work page, readers are now somewhere else, on another website, watching videos and doing all manner of activities irrelevant to the article they were just reading (and which we'd much rather prefer they stay engaged with).
   • Does this mean that we are alright with sending people elsewhere rather than keeping them on the wiki and engaging with the articles?
     • If yes, why is this rule here? I'd argue that providing a link to an external site in the very quote is about as bad as it gets for disincentivising engaging with the trope page itself
     • If no, why is an URL pothole allowed in a quote?

2. URL links are not guaranteed to work forever. While in the short term, a video or website may be working and people may be able to view the relevant content, if at any point a video is removed or a website shuts down or puts a block or restriction on the linked content, nobody is going to be able to view it or understand the example.
   • Does this mean we are fine with links as long as they don't 404?
     • If yes, do we just remove links as we see them 404, leaving the quote without a citation/source when it does?
     • If no, why is removing the the external link bad?

Edited by Theharbo on Mar 4th 2020 at 8:56:57 PM

For the 404 thing, there's the Internet Archive if you really want to save those pages.

Moreover, those bullet points are why you shouldn't just leave a Zero-Context Example. Supplementary links like the ones above don't count.

Contains 20% less fat than the leading value brand!

Bigger issue; even if WANE meant that we are not allowed to link to other websites, it doesn't justify removing the entire quote, just the link.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Potholes are not allowed in quotes. At least page-topping quotes.

Unlinking a broken link can be done without removing the source. It was still a quoted line from Cracked, from a particular article.

Edited by Tabs on Mar 5th 2020 at 8:42:46 AM

Answering the questions:

• We are only okay with sending people elsewhere if it isn't required to understand what's being claimed. If the entire context of an example depends on having a link, people have to be sent off-site to get the context, and that's a bad thing. Also, as mentioned, potholes aren't allowed in quotes either way.
• Links are okay if they don't 404, but like I said, you can't rely on them as context.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

I removed the quotes on Gameplay Derailment and Last Lousy Point and cutlisted Quotes.Last Lousy Point since none of them fit the trope. There's another ProZD video that does fit Last Lousy Point.

Keet cleanup