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Main Bigger Bad Discussion
I removed this page quote:
"He's the one who started all of this, y'know? The Freelancers, and the AIs, and the Meta. I mean, when you think about it, he's the reason why we're here."
...Because that is illustrative of a Big Bad, not a Bigger Bad. Just see the very beginning of the description for this trope: "As the page description for Big Bad notes, that character may be the one who is directly responsible for the plot, but is not necessarily the most powerful or significant evil presence in the setting. That's where this trope comes in - the setting has a villainous presence that is more significant than the Big Bad in the setting as a whole, but isn't causing the conflict of the story (and may have little to do with it at all)."
— Simmons, talking about the Director, Red Vs Blue
I think these examples should be removed, because they have nothing to do with the trope:
Anime and Manga:
- Mandara from Naruto. He came up with the Evil Plan and he's directly responsible for Tobi's Face Heel Turn. Also Rondomi who readded him, you claimed he fits because he's dead. You're wrong, because even his death was part of his plan, otherwise he wouldn't have given Nagato the Rinnegan. He is the driving force of the plot, so he's not a Bigger Bad, but a Man Behind The Man, with Tobi not being the Big Bad, but The Heavy and The Dragon for Madara.
- Master Hades from Fairy Tail. He migh had been only indirectly involved with the other Arc Villains (NOT Big Bads!), but he was very actively involved with the plot, as he used most of said Arc Villains, as ploys to cover his own Evil Plan.
- Ryuk from Death Note is more like a Neutral Evil Unwitting Instigator Of Doom. The Bigger Bad of the story is the notebook itself. Light even lampshaded it, when he spoke about how the Death Note tempts the people to try it, and how it's mere presence in the human world has a huge impact on it. So did Near, when he spoke about how the power of the notebook corrupted Light.
- Donquixote Doflamingo from One Piece is also a clear case of Man Behind The Man.
Will this quote from Red Vs Blue work as the page quote?
"He's the one who started all of this, y'know? The Freelancers, and the A Is, and the Meta. I mean, when you think about it, he's the reason why we're here."
—Simmons, talking about the Director, Red Vs Blue
To whoever posted the Palpatine image, I must protest. Palpatine is very much the Big Bad, as all the other villains in the Star Wars Original Trilogy are ultimately taking their orders from him or take their orders from people who work for him (with the exception of Jabba). Were he a Bigger Bad, he would be a villain beyond the scope of the series, not the one you have to beat to end the story. Unless I hear some really good reasons not to, I'm taking it down tomorrow morning.
Image changes and removals should always go through the Image Pickin' forum
; start a thread and explain that it isn't an example. Personally, I think it's still a good image, since Darth Vader is widely known to be bad and the darkness and black clothing emphasises this. It is then clear that he's taking orders from someone who must be the Bigger Bad.
; start a thread and explain that it isn't an example. Personally, I think it's still a good image, since Darth Vader is widely known to be bad and the darkness and black clothing emphasises this. It is then clear that he's taking orders from someone who must be the Bigger Bad.
I'm the one who today added the Paul Feval entry under Literature. I'm openly asking here is anyone feel I should be corrected on anything?
One of the 4 works of his I reference I haven't actually read yet, that being Mysteries of London (Only the Stage adaptation is available in English currently). I keep changing my mind which trope to Pot Hole to in reference to it's Anti Villain's motives.
Knight Templar
Well Intentioned Extremist
Your Terrorists Are Our Freedom Fighters
and other related tropes
What makes the first work best is that his plan is a traditional Revolution at all. But it's still not exactly a standard type of Knight Templar motivation/method.
A few questions: The status of Bigger Bad can be applied on a Story Arc basis instead of on a whole story one, right? That is, can a villain be the Bigger Bad of one or more arcs, but eventually become the Big Bad of the following arc(s)?
Also, regarding the definition... Would I be mistaken in interpreting the trope as "villain who is indirectly/impersonally responsible for the plot's current conflict (whether over the whole work or just in the current Story Arc), but whose defeat is not actually necessary for resolving said conflict"? I mean, you are counting Adolf Hitler as the Bigger Bad in stories set in WW 2, apparently for the simple reason that he was personally responsible for starting off said war, without which none of the specific, much smaller-scale (and thus not directly influenced by Hitler himself) conflicts of those works (e.g. Zaytsev's repetitive clashes with Major Konig after rising to fame in Enemy At The Gates) would have happened in the first place.
Would Big Brother from Nineteen Eighty Four count, considering that he never actually enters the story, and his underlings in the Party (like O'Brien) does most of the onscreen villainy?
Skyword Sword's Demon Lord Demise appears on this page and Man Behind The Man, both claiming that he serves the respective trope within the game itself.
By definition he can't be both, so which is he? If it's this one, I need to edit him out of Man Behind The Man, if he's that one, I need to edit this page and the SS main and character pages.
- Emperor Palpatine serves this role in A New Hope, as he doesn't make an appearance until the next installment.
- Dark Spector from Power Rangers In Space lead every villain at the time.
Clean-up.
- Every season of Twenty Four has a succession of Bigger Bads. For example, in the first season the preliminary antagonist is Ira Gaines, who turns out to be working for Victor Drazen. Nina turns out to be motivated by an even shadier force.
- The case could be made that the great dragon Shinryu i: he helped start the conflict of the Gods, is the one who resurrects dead warriors at the end of every cycle so they can keep fighting, and has orchestrated the whole thing to refine Chaos into the perfect weapon. The closest thing he gets to being in an actual fight is acting as an exclusive summon for Chaos.
- Darkrai during the first half of Pokemon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers of Time/Darkness/Sky. His role as the game's Big Bad is not revealed until after Primal Dialga is defeated.
- However, Primal Dialga itself fills the role in the anime special, though Darkrai could still be the Big Bad there as well.
- In Darkwing Duck, FOWL are said to be behind almost all other villains, but rarely appear and never interact directly with Darkwing.
- In One Piece, whenever a Marine officer, a member of the Seven Warlords of the Sea, or other World Government group, like a Cipher Pol or the staff of Impel Down, serve as a Big Bad for an arc, they serve Kong, Commander-in-Chief, and through him, the Five Elder Stars, the leaders of the World Government and the most likely final villains of the story alongside Blackbeard.
Does Dr. Facilier's Friends On The Other Side count as a Bigger Bad?
Let's run through the Danny Phantom examples, shall we?
- Pariah Dark: He could have been this trope, but wasn't played that way. Had he been built up as the obscenely powerful Ghost King across several episodes without appearing before being released, I'd consider him this in a heartbeat (though, assuming Reign Storm had then played out as canon, he would have then become Big Bad for the duration of that episode). As is, he's introduced, released, battled, and deafeated directly in a single (if double-length) episode, of which he, not Vlad, is the Big Bad. He's barely mentioned again afterwards. He's just a very powerful villain.
- Dark Danny: No Just No. He's Danny's evil future self. Replacing him with an impersonal force or keeping him at arm's length from the story would completely negate his dramatic impact. He's certainly not this trope.
- Ecto Asteroid: Never watched that episode, so I can't judge. Anyone who did feel like weighing in?