Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

A Naruto fanfic with VIKINGS? Egad...

Yeah, I know. Air Jay does really fit Horny Viking stereotype though. Besides none of them impact the plot besides Air Jay and his father.

edited 4th Jan '14 9:51:39 PM by randomtroper89

Such a Viking sounding name. The author couldn't find "Sven" in a book of names?

@Lightysnake

Having talked to my brother, who has actually seen the episode with Zeus, I'm definitely going to say no. He thinks that Zeus cares about Artemis and I'll trust his judgement. Additionally, Exister is right—we've seen people whose only crime was "not knowing any better" get trapped in Hell by the likes of Lilith and Alistair (Bella was a repellent bitch, but she wasn't when she made the deal that originally damned her), and what Alistair did to Dean is at least as bad, if not worse, than what Zeus did to Prometheus' child. Zeus just doesn't do enough, or get enough screentime to deserve a place on the list with the likes of them.

EDIT: Looking at the Supernatural entries on the Live Action TV page, we've got some problems. Lilith and Dick Roman both need rewrites; Roman's current entry compares him to Lucifer and doesn't have the best grammar, and Lilith's entry (which I admit I wrote years ago) is basically a rant about how much I hated her. Zacariah is still listed as well. I was just rereading the old discussion of him, and it seems that most people were leaning cut, though I never found a place where we actually made a decision.

If we're going to be looking at adding/removing other examples, those probably need to be gone over. I can provide a write-up for Lilith in the next day or two. If someone else could look at Roman? And we do need to come to an actual decision on Zacariah if we have not done so already.

edited 4th Jan '14 10:29:07 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Should we add Justin Hammer from Iron Man: Armored Adventures to the Marvel Animated page? I think at one point we were thinking of adding him to the main Animated page, but did not get around to it.

What are his actions? Iron Man: Armored Adventures also has two others.

It's not just 'not knowing better,' people are given the option with the explicit fact their soul is forfeit in ten years. We see this with the Crossroads demons, Crowley- and in fact, Crowley is furious when demons try to game the system. You could make the argument-and I'd agree- that Bela couldn't possibly grasp what she was signing up to, but everyone else who made a deal that we saw was informed flat out: ten years and then it's hell and torture. Zeus took more initiative on his own.

If Zachariah had the net cut of votes, we ought remove him. Alistair, Lilith and Roman are the three confirmed keeps.

If we decided on Hammer there, add away. I have a few other film examples I'll post writeups for to be judged by everyone here:

First is Major Taussig from the Film The Hornets Next. One thing that sticks out to me is that in a WW 2 film, the other ranking German is a bit of a Noble Demon who disdains harming civilians and other rank and file who are just ordinary soldiers, as opposed to the hardcore psychos in the SS

• Major Taussig in the World War Two film Hornets' Nest is a cold, cruel man who is firmly distinct from the other reasonable German Soldiers. A member of the SS who has no compunction in committing war crimes, Taussig spends the film trying to murder or torture any 'Partisans' he comes across in the Italian countryside. At the film's opening, Taussig shows off his methods by gathering every man, woman and child in the village, lining them up and having them all gunned down without batting an eye before taking the village as a base for his men.

• Patrick Channing of The First Power is a satanic Serial Killer who makes a pact with the devil for supernatural power. With a huge string of corpses behind him, Channing offered the deaths to Satan by carving a pentagram into every villain, earning him the name "The Pentagram Killer." After being caught and executed, Channing revives and continues killing with the added twist that he now aims for revenge against the cop who caught him. His aim after that is simply to keep killing as many people as he can forever, with the added twist he can possess others as well.

• Karl Hochman of the film The Ghost In The Machine is known as The Address-Book Killer for his predilection of obtaining victims from stolen address books. While driving to kill a victim, Karl is injured in a car accident and a freak electrical surge when he is hooked up to machinery results in his soul becoming digitized. Now free to continue his spree, he uses his powers to scan address books digitally and murder everyone on the lists. Now able to manipulate any electrical, Karl initiates electrical fires, causes explosions and uses electrical shocks to claim new victims with seemingly no way to escape him.

• Dr. Berrisford of the film Bad Dreams is a mild, unassuming man who runs a hospital for those with mental trauma. In reality, he is a sadist with a god-complex and wishes to test his theories on suicide on his patients. Berrisford manipulates his mentally fragile patients emotionally to make them snap, resulting in them killing themselves and others. He has one leap out her window to the street, and has another throw her head into a turbine. One patient he leads to the roof to manipulate her into jumping off before the hero of the movie rescues her. Berrisford simply tries to push them off himself, after having mentally tortured said patient the entire film by planting the idea in her head that the ghost of a cult leader who'd tried to kill her was haunting her.

• Fender Tremolo of the film Cyborg makes the most of a world After the End where he can do what he wants. The leader of a group of vicious marauders called The Pirates, Fender seems to want nothing so much as to wipe out every survivor he can. Fender murder the girlfriend of The Hero Gibson and her brother, kidnapping her sister as a pet and servant. He murders nearly everyone he comes across and takes special delight in tormenting Gibson himself. When he finally captures Gibson, he crucifies him on a mast. While he wants to cure himself of the plague that's infected so many, Fender has no compunction slaughtering everyone else and scenes set before show he was just as evil before the widespread plague hit: he just needed something to set him loose.

Btw, Ambar, I know you'll get chuckle out of a world victimized by Neo-Nazi psychos being called 'Zeon'

• Melakon of the world Ekos, a villain of Star Trek: The Original Series was a devotee of Naziism introduced to his people in an attempt to soften it by a former Starfleet officer named John Gil. Shunning the attempt to water down Hitler's philosophy, Melakon decided to embrace Hitler's path. He overthrew his mentor and formed a fascist regime on his homeworld while trying to organize a new holocaust on an entire neighboring planet called Zeon. Before murdering his mentor, Melakon was denounced by him as nothing more as a self seeking adventurer: a traitor to his people and all they stood for.

• Mick Cutler of the third Resistance game was incarcerated in prison before the Chimera attack. Deciding to use the prison as a base, Cutler ran it with absolute savagery and barbarity. He disposed of any potential threats and led raids to capture other human survivors, using them for gladiator games to entertain himself and his followers or possibly cannibalizing them. Mick is first seen brutally murdering a doctor, and placing another The Hero Capelli into a gladiator arena. Even when the Chimera discovered the location and attacked, Mick tried to stop Capelli from actions that may have saved them just to keep his own power.

• The Takashi Miike film Lesson Of The Evil gives us Seiji Hasumi. Seemingly a mild-mannered teacher, Hasumi is a dangerous Serial Killer who loves sadistic murders and killing. Teaming up with a killer in America, Hasumi killed many people there before murdering his partner as well. At his school in Japan, Hasumi begins murdering students and 'overbearing' parents before deciding to simply massacre everyone at school one night with a shotgun. Even after being caught, he decides to fake insanity to escape responsibility in court as a new game.

The next one...admittedly, this is like Brazil's Dirty Harry and very dark. Nevertheless, I think the villain blows away everyone else...even the heroes who commit a number of...questionable activity. Putting it in context though, there was a real exhaustion with corruption in Brazil when the films were made, so a tough Cowboy Cop who operates outside the law was appealing. Hence why the worst villain is a corrupt cop who's a mobster himself.

• Major Rocha of the The Elite Squad sequel The Enemy Within begins his reign of terror in Rio's slums by forming a militia and slaughtering anyone who won't give his men a cut of the profits. Any who resist the militia are executed, along with any witnesses. When Mathias, one of the Cowboy Cop heroes is getting info from a drug dealer, Rocha murders the dealer- and then shoots Mathias in the back. When two journalists get too close to the truth, Rocha tortures them, kills one, then has the other raped and killed before burning the bodies. when the main Anti-Hero gets too close, Rocha tries to kill him as well. A brutal thug of a human being, Rocha eclipses anyone else in the films for his violence and corruption.

edited 5th Jan '14 1:24:37 AM by Lightysnake

Just for the record Air Jay's real name is Joaquin Andrade. I didn't mention it because it's not that important.

Question: Are we sure about the position of Yukino from Yakitate Japan? Haven't seen it, but reading her entry bugs me because:

1. It seems it's a gag series where the whole thing is Played for Laughs, and the entry itself makes Yukino sound like more of a Jerkass and a Troll than a Complete Monster. On the other hand, she might be heinous by a comedy series' standards, but...

2. Are we sure it's not a misogynist entry? On the series' YMMV page, the character mentioned crossing the Moral Event Horizon isn't even her: it's the Big Bad Gendo Ikari {{Expy.}}

Also not a very Viking sounding name. He should be a conquistadore.

@Lightysnake

I believe there were more cuts than keeps for Zacariah, though no one ever actually tallied them up. One of us should do that shortly.

I'm not objecting to the inclusion of Lilith or Roman, just that they need better entries. I'll do one for Lilith; think you could provide one for Roman that doesn't involve comparing him to Lucifer the way the current one does?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Zeus wasn't even trying to curse the kid to begin with, was he? He just doesn't take it away once he finds out the curse is inheritable. Regarding the whole "informed consent" thing for deals with demons, I'd argue that if they'll cut a deal with a ten year old child, that raises some serious questions about who else has found their way into Hell via deal. I'd also contend that with the exception of hunters like Dean and John, there aren't many people in the world who could truly comprehend what they're signing up for, even if it was spelled out for them in advance.

Will have to think about most of the examples you just posted before I comment.

edited 5th Jan '14 9:53:49 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Frankly, I didn't have much sympathy for the guy making a deal for infinite wealth when Crowley told him in ten years he was going to hell. Or the guy who actively summoned a demon for musical talent. Everyone is told about what the deal entails.

And no, Zeus didn't intend for Oliver to be immortal. However, once he finds out, he decides to proactively murder him for eternity and is trying to flash fry him with electricity to get started.

@ AWC, we already discussed Iron Man Armored Adventures and decided to cut everyone besides Hammer here:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=6vic3f9h1cy5qivsenw8llok&page=772

I think he will need a new write up and I have not seen much of the second season of that series, I am simply bring up some unfinished business.

I haven't seen the guy who made the deal for infinite wealth, but I did have some sympathy for the musician. Yes he was told what would happen to him, but I never got the impression that he really understood it. Not to mention that at the time when he made the deal (when he was, if memory serves, pretty pathetic) ten years of success probably seemed great. Anyway, whether you and I have sympathy for them isn't really relevant; what matters is that they didn't hurt anybody, and their only crime was making the deal in the first place. Not really something that merits an eternity of torment.

In any case, we've drifted somewhat afield from the original point that I (and Exister) were trying to make, namely that where Zeus is willing to torment one kid for the rest of eternity, Alistair and his demons have been tormenting millions upon millions of souls for much longer (Lilith being one of the first human beings gives us a couple hundred thousand years worth of this, at least). I'd say we see enough of Hell, and of what Alistair does (and what he made Dean do) that it overshadows Zeus completely. And given that Zeus is one of the most powerful of the "pagan gods" tiers don't really come into play here.

I am also gonna vote on Zeus for now.

So you mean they were informed that in ten years, they were going to be tortured for all eternity if they took the deal and still took the deal for personal gain. Also the musician actively sought out the demon for the deal. Anyways, this aside...the fact of the matter is the free-will aspect to most of the deals and the results makes Zeus's actions seem worse for me

Also, you're verging into serious hyperbole. There is no telling how many souls Alistair has tortured or for how long. We see very little of it, and only Dean showing some results takes it out of being Offscreen Villainy.I'm going to stick by previous arguments currently. Alistair's victims eventually have an end to suffering. Prometheus and Oliver most specifically were not going to.

edited 5th Jan '14 10:42:41 AM by Lightysnake

Yeah I have to admit that Janita is not the best written fic out there, but Air Jay's actions are played seriously. I admit that there is a little bit of Narm in the way the story just constantly hammers into your face that Air Jay is sooo evil.

I'm not sure that "losing your humanity and becoming a demon" really qualifies as an end to suffering. Congratulations, you are now an evil, formless being capable of little beyond blind hatred. And the fact is that people, as a species, suck at understanding consequences. Just as there are a large number of people who don't comprehend that eventually they will have to repay their credit card debt, there are undoubtedly people who don't understand what their Deal with the Devil entails, no matter how clearly it's explained. More to the point, we know that demons do in fact approach those who cannot possibly understand what will happen, as in the case of Bella (who for the record, is probably the character in the show that I loathed the most, but nobody deserves that).

In fact, if you want to talk about heinousness, comparing the demon who offered Bella her deal (we don't really meet he/she/it/they, but Lilith holds the contract, so we know who approved it) and Zeus is probably not a bad idea. On the one hand, we've got a Physical God who cursed a man who had offended him, and after finding out that the curse had affected the man's offspring, was a-okay with letting said offspring suffer the curse, and die every day. On the other hand, we've got a demon who approached a sexually abused child and offered to make her life better, but only on the condition that she be damned to Hell ten years later; she'll either suffer forever there, or end up as another demon.

I don't know about you, but I think the actions of that demon are worse. Zeus never planned to hurt a kid, he just doesn't care at all when he finds out that's what he did (I'll also note that in the Greek myths at least, sins of the father being inherited was a big thing; whether this is relevant to the show, I can't say) and thinks it's fitting. The demon that gave Bella her deal specifically approached a child—and an abused one at that—with the intention of damning her to Hell. Lilith, who approves of, and holds this contract, later uses it to manipulate that same person into playing a role in her end of the world scheme. You really gonna tell me that Zeus is worse than that?

As for us not seeing everything Alistair does, that's true, but we don't see every death that Prometheus or Oliver suffer either. In each case, we simply see enough to confirm that the overall picture of what's going on is true. Those arguing for Zeus are wanting us to consider the full import of what he did. If we're going to do that, we've also got to consider the full import of what Alistair did. And when you do that, Alistair is worse.

Finally, both Occasional Exister and my brother have suggested to me (and in Exister's case to the forum) that Zeus cares about Artemis and the other Olympian Gods. In which case the rest of this conversation is irrelevant, because he'd be disqualified on the grounds of having a redeeming quality. Can you actually offer me any proof that he doesn't care about them? As is, I still say "no".

PS—Will do a rewrite for Lilith tonight.

We know Bela was approached. Practically everyone else who makes a bargain specifically goes looking for the demons with full knowledge of what it entails. I'm not filled with boundless sympathy for someone who goes looking for a spirit of evil to sell their soul to it for wealth and success. Ruby was a witch who knowingly pledged herself to darkness. Crowley sold his soul for two extra inches of penis length even.

And Zeus 'didn't plan' to hurt a kid? he didn't know there'd be kids. Prometheus was meant to be locked up forever dying eternally. Obviously, there was a shakeup there, and Prometheus ended up released with curse intact, and fathered Oliver. Zeus's reaction there is "Oh, sweet, now I get to do the same thing to him!" Which isn't much better. Particularly when he's not only happy Oliver is suffering, he opts to make him suffer more quite proactively. Which is worse than just callousness towards a happy accident as Zeus terms it. You're right we can't really use Oliver being immortal and suffering as a point in Zeus's favor. But his deciding "Oh, I can use this to kill you more" can be.

And here's a point overlooked: we see Alastair torture nobody but Ruby and Castiel onscreen. Not a single tortured soul unless you count Dean by the tortured look in his eyes in hell. How much are we imputing per se? I think we see enough of Dean and his mental state to label Alastair here, but by the same token Zeus is also much worse than any other Pagan Deity or monster on the show. And if we impute Alastair's usual activity to him, then couldn't we also do the same to Zeus, who was angry because Prometheus had saved humanity from suffering and ignorance that Zeus had condemned them to by giving them fire?

As far as Zeus caring about Artemis and the other Olympian Gods goes, I'm going to view the bit with him on Netflix and say what I think there.

EDIT: Okay, I've seen the scene. For Artemis? Zero evidence. He introduces her as "you've met my daughter" and tries to convince Artemis he's right, but only looks angry when she tries to kill him- and uses Prometheus as a human shield for it, more concerned about hurting Prometheus than the fact Artemis just tried to kill him.

The Olympic Gods on the other hand...he says to Prometheus to imagine a thousand children dying and then maybe Prometheus would understand his pain. In a Motive Rant he blames Prometheus for why the Olympians aren't ruling the world and why humanity's forgotten about them. However, it's hard to extract any genuine care from it, given how he turns on anyone who slights him.

That said, Artemis does indicate he's changed immensely. She says he 'was' her father but she doesn't know who he is anymore. Being cast down and forgotten have presumably changed him immensely over thousands of years.

I'll need to think on it. It's probable he once cared for the other Olympians, but since then he's been so consumed with hate and bitterness it's not there anymore. It does add a new layer to the character that distinguishes him from the others, though, so I think I'll have to alter my vote.

Here's Dick Roman

• The leader of the Leviathans, commonly known by assumed name Dick Roman, wasted no time in establishing himself as one of the worst Supernatural's ever had to offer. Not content with simply lurking in the shadows to feed on humanity, Roman planted his minions in key positions, murdering and devouring every human in the way. Taking control of a major company, Roman began to place chemicals in corn syrup so humanity would be rendered helpless as cattle for the Leviathans to feed on. Other monster species were seen as 'competition,' with Roman planning to exterminate them as well after manipulating them into helping him. A Bad Boss even by the show's standards, Roman was known to devour his minions in a fit of rage or 'bib' them: forcing them to devour themselves. Few villains on Supernatural have managed to inspire the same fear or hatred as Roman did, and his killing of Bobby Singer only deepened the hatred the Winchester brothers had for him.

edited 5th Jan '14 1:15:34 PM by Lightysnake

So, this is going back a ways, but...

Recently I, umm, argh, bit the -argh- Bile Fascination bullet and -oh God- read a bit of -argh- The Turner Diaries online just see what its deal was, since I remember it was discussed in the question of whether or not a character intended to be sympathetic could make the list if they were just that bad.

Argh argh argh argh argh argh.

The main character's name is "Earl Turner" (isn't that such a great redneck name?) and he's quite the piece of work. He commits or is complicit in numerous horrible crimes throughout the story, while maintaining a smug Superboy-Prime-esque "Well, they brought it on themselves" attitude throughout. In my opinion "The Day of the Rope"^note For the weak-stomached, this refers to the state-wide mass-lynching of everyone in the state of California who married someone of a different race, carried out in a single day with an explicitly-given bodycount of over 10,000 in Los Angeles alone alone would be enough to qualify a character in any other story. I want this guy on the list. I'd even be willing to waive the "There must be no attempt to portray the character positively" clause to get this guy on the list.

However.

I think he fails a couple of our other qualifications. He has a girlfriend/wife (didn't read enough to tell which she was) that he seems to care about, and rape disgusts him. The especially sad thing is that if it were played straight as a first-person chonicle of what it was like to live under such a horrible government (like The Handmaids Tale), I think it could've been pretty good. It's just that said horrible government is supposed to be the good guy here.

Argharghargharghargharghargharghargh AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGH!

....now let's never discuss this story again.

True that.

@HT

After everything we said about that story, you actually went and read it? I'm not sure if I admire you or question your sanity. Maybe a little bit of both.

@Lightysnake

That sounds like a disqualifier to me, at least within Supernatural, where the villains don't typically have anything even approaching that sort of excuse.

I like the Dick Roman write-up; the only thing is that Supernatural should be italicized.

Will do Lilith tonight. Question—I hate to bring it up, but in the interests of being thorough feel compelled to (especially since it's been a long time since I've seen the show): should Alistair and Lilith's loyalty to Lucifer be something that we take into account?

Wait, isn't Turner supposed to be the good guy in Turner Diaries (well, the author's intent anyway)?

Indeed, which is why I said I'd be willing to disregard the Sympathetic P.O.V. clause in this instance alone. Unfortunately, even here I'd be uncomfortable waiving the loved ones clause, so that's the end of that.

I don't think it's really loyalty to that. They have a freakish worship of him...and Alastair doesn't even care. He's ambivalent to the war. He'd rather be below, torturing people. But anyways, it's not redeeming either way.

@20504: Yeah, but on the other hand we have examples of people who made a Deal with the Devil for noble reasons. Other than John and Dean there's also the man who made the deal to save his wife's life. And Balthazar, another angel turned "good guy," also bought souls off of people in order to barter with, including that of a little boy who wanted revenge for racist police officers murdering his innocent brother.

Good write-up for Dick Roman, btw. Should it also be mentioned that he sent two Leviathans disguised as Sam and Dean on a cross-country murder spree to frame the protagonists for the crimes?

@20505: Poor, poor HT. Your noble sacrifice will never be forgotten. *starts playing Amazing Freaking Grace on a kazoo* Whelp, sounds like we sound cut that guy then for "redeeming qualities" as implausible as that sounds.

@20508: I don't really think either Lilith or Alistair have much loyalty to Lucifer. Alistair's attitude towards the whole apocalypse thing is "let's get this over with so I can get back to torturing people forever." Lilith also doesn't feel much loyalty to Lucifer. When she finds out that the final seal to be broken to free him is her death, she tries to opt out, and tries to make a deal with Sam that if she lets him kill both him and his brother, she'll give up on trying to cause the apocalypse and instead will make evil on her own time. Who knew that the bizarrely sincere offer of, "Let me kill you and the person you love most and live to cause more murder for innocent people, could ever possibly be rejected?! Her letting Sam kill her to break the final seal seemed like spite against the Winchesters more than anything else, tricking Sam into causing the apocalypse and releasing Lucifer from his cage. Other demons are willing to let Lucifer sacrifice them without batting an eye, such as the dozen he killed to bind and control death. Lilith tries the bail the second the apocalypse means actual sacrifice from her, instead of just random torture, murder and baby eating. Lilith and Alistair's "devotion" seems to go about as far as, "I'll help so long as your goal matches up with my sadism," unlike the truly devoted followers of Lucifer such as Azazel, Meg and Ruby.

edited 5th Jan '14 5:44:37 PM by OccasionalExister