During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
The Thief. Marvel and DC demons totally have agency too, so no need to worry about that.
The Thief.
Something very Stan Lee about that villain. I know he wrote it but it's just... I dunno, feels like it has his fingerprints on it, if that makes sense.
I actually really like the idea of a villain no selling attacks, then killing his goons for not protecting him. Maybe it's cruel, but it tickles me.
Wild Child
The Thief.
Dominic Darrk (that name sounds so much more kickass than just "Thief") sounds an easy yes. Somewhat surprised we've overlooked this until now.
RIP Toriyama
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Until the Sandman story, I was all ready to propose Darrk himself, thinking THAT would've been a gloriously evil name for the trope, but unfortunately, that was the story that revealed that Darrk was nothing but an avatar for the Thief to use as a puppet. I shed a silent tear at the fact that such a gloriously evil name would now only be regarded as "the villain's secret identity". 😔
Something else I feel I should note just to make sure everyone knows (Especially as I propose these next villains): This miniseries is in a different universe all together from the canon DC universe, so its heinous standard has nothing to do with this Just Imagine one. The only heinous standard villains have to measure up to is that of the story itself.
Alrighty, next up from the comic.....
Who is he?
Crisis is the Greater-Scope Villain of the story.
Crisis exists outside of our dimension, and he's about ready to set up shop in our world by fusing the Dreamworld into our dimension, thus giving him godlike powers to torment and agonize the universe as he sees fit.
What has he done?
To aid in his escape from his nightmarish realm, Crisis teams up with the afore discussed Thief of Souls, granting him extra power to assist him, and as such, Crisis is by default responsible for most of the evil throughout the story.
When the Thief unleashes the Sleeping Death plague across the world, which seemingly kills its victims while dragging their tormented souls to the Dreamworld, Crisis plans to absorb all of the thousands of souls to make himself more powerful while simultaneously turning them into tortured slaves for all eternity.
Sandman, after defeating the Thief, saves the thousands of souls just as they are about to be devoured by Crisis, ticcing off Crisis just a little bit, as he proceeds to emerge onto Earth and immediately begins annihilating everything in his way, and unleashes the forces of Dreamworld onto nearby cities to torment and attack innocents.
Crisis is then confronted by the Justice League, who he first gleefully Mind Rapes with their worst fears, often of their loves ones being killed and such, at which point he orders his two servants, Robin (Yes, THAT Robin) and Melana (Crisis' daughter), both seemingly heroes, to turn on their team and assist him in trapping them all in a prison where he plans to keep them forever.
Before Crisis and his servants can begin merging Dreamworld into the Earth to allow him to destroy, torture, and conquer everything in this universe as he did the last one, the surviving heroes duel with Crisis and his servants, successfully killing Robin, much to Crisis' complete and utter indifference.
Crisis makes one last attempt to murder all of the heroes once the ones he trapped are free, however through teamwork and all that jazz, he is successfully destroyed by a revived Robin who fused with a life tree to become some weird demigod thing called Atom. Whaaaaaaaaat......
And thus, the day is saved! Thanks to....the kind-of Justice League.
Freudian Excuse or other mitigating factors?
None really. His own daughter, Melana, though teaming up with him in the end, shows the capacity to choose whether or not to be evil, and she has loved ones, plus she seems to a make a Heel–Face Turn, so moral agency isn't an issue.
Besides that, nothing of note. He plans to make Robin his successor, but he shows no concern when the boy is killed.
Heinousness?
Technically the worst in-story. True he never gets up to some of the more personally cruel crimes like the Thief, but he IS trying to plunge an entire universe into eternal torment, and he's the one who gave the Thief the resources to cause the trouble he does, so....
Final Verdict?
Don't feel AS strongly about him as the Thief, but I'd still say he's a Keeper.
edited 18th Jan '17 10:40:41 PM by Ravok
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Crisis sounds a yes as well.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Thief and Crisis.
to Thief and Crisis.
Now then with 6 and 0 ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
for Ah Chung and Chicken Wing, here are their write ups:
- Revenge Of The Green Dragons:
- Ah Chung serves as the leader of the Green Dragons on the behalf of Paul Wong, though Chung's actions are much more prominent. Upon recruiting Sonny and Steven to his gang when they were only kids he was responsible for turning them into his loyal hitmen and would order them to kill anyone he wants starting with a group of people that owes him money. Years later, his gang would cause many deaths of many rival gang members as well as innocents and even has one gang member tortured to death, which included pulling out his teeth, cutting off his fingers, and finally shooting him in the head. Upon hearing that Steven's Uncle acquiring some money, he decides rob his place and commands his dragon Chicken Wing to rape the uncle's daughter while he forces him to watch. This act cause Steven to have a mental breakdown and go on a killing spree on his own causing a death of a White man. When Ah Chung learned of this he was upset, but only because of how much unwanted attention it will bring from the cop and barely got away, where afterwards he proceeds to stab Steven to death before putting his corpse in a dumpster.
- Chicken Wing serves as The Dragon to the aforementioned Ah Chung, but managed to stand out on his own. First establishing himself by beating a innocent man in a bathroom, when a young Steven stumble across this, he forces Steven to defecate on the man before he kills him. He then takes the boy to brutally beat up and was about to castrate him before Ah Chung and Paul Wong show up to recruit Steven. He also partook in Green Dragon's mass killings of rivals and innocents and was actually the one who gave Ah Chung the idea for the rival ganger member's slow and torturous death. He later helps Ah Chung rob Steven's uncle and gladly follows his bosses order to rape his daughter and even raping his wife by his own choice. He later takes their panties as trophies and proudly shows them to Steven much to the latter's disgust. After Steven nearly got them arrested, Chicken Wing forces his brother Sonny to watch as Ah Chung brutally executes Steven.
I'll send them to the draft page
edited 18th Jan '17 11:49:55 PM by G-Editor
I found this in the Prince and the Pauper Mickey Mouse short, and I don't know if this had been approved (looked through pages and pages just to see if this has been discussed already).
- Complete Monster: While Pete has always been characterized as an antagonist, or at least unpleasant, this version is easily him at his worst. He has no problem essentially declaring himself a warlord over England, looting and pillaging as he pleases, and when he learns that the Prince and Mickey have traded places, he immediately plots to have the Prince killed, and use Mickey as a puppet king. Completely self serving, this Pete has absolutely no redeeming characteristics.
I seriously doubt that any villain from Mickey Mouse short can be heinous enough to qualify, but i haven't seen this particular short so i can't say for sure.
Seems we're in an agreement on Hatagai not being heinous enough in context. If there are no objections i'm cutting it from manga's YMMV page.
edited 19th Jan '17 1:47:49 AM by NNinja
Messenger from another dimension.
Pete from Prince and the Pauper isn't even close. As for Mickey Mouse shorts, the only character that could qualify is the The Mad Doctor (he was even listed at one point), and even in his case, all he tries to do is to kill Mickey and Pluto (albeit very brutally), plus the sequel to Epic Mickey can redeem him. In other words, no C Ms for Mickey shorts.
Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Thief and Crisis.
Lizzid people!
Crisis.
On an unrelated note, today is my Momma's (my pet name for my grandmother; she doesn't like to be referred as "grandma") 82nd birthday.
There's been an addition to my effortpost schedule: Along with Keoma, I'll be checking out In Order of Disappearance.
edited 19th Jan '17 4:53:00 AM by DemonDuckofDoom
You know, since the reason that Freeza destroyed Planet Vegeta has been changed into being that Beerus ordered Freeza to do it, should we remove the bit of the entry that says he did it because he feared he was going to be overthrown by a Super Saiyan?
Crisis, though I had to think about it a bit. Less memorable than the Thief, but has enough of a personality to just about count.
But damn. His defeat sounds dumb.
As for Freeza, someone more versed in Dragon Ball lore is needed for this one, but I am inclined to agree with the change, even if Freeziepoos was more than happy to do it.
Like, we could say "When ordered by Beerus, Freeza gleefully destroyed Planet Vegeta."
edited 19th Jan '17 7:18:26 AM by PolarPhantom
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
The same Beerus whose servant Ass Pull-ed time rewind helped KILL Frieza??? 
Yes (though it wasn't really an Ass Pull. Whis told Goku and Vegeta prior that he could rewind time)
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
That may be true, and maybe it's better than it sounds, but that just seems like SUCH an anti-climactic way for a villain like Frieza to go out.
Regarding changing Frieza's effort post to Beerus ordering him, seems a bit irrelevant since Freeza most likely would have done it anyway and it's a pretty poor excuse for a Retcon.
basically, it just forced him to do what he would've done anyways.
Anyways, yes to Ravok's
I think I've got one more of these left. Okay, that's not entirely true. I have a few others, but I know that not many (if any) took very kindly to my last effortpost — perhaps understandably — so I'm trying to take it easy for a while.
Background
Perdition is set sometime in the (presumably) distant future, where androids had been created. After a defect in the androids' circuitry, most of humanity was wiped out by their creations. In an effort to retaliate against them, they built a godlike android named Gomadi. This worked quite well. Perhaps a little too well.
Who is he?
He's a creation of humans — perhaps modeled by them after the Biblical God — made in an effort to wipe out the androids that had been killing them.
What makes him so heinous?
It's understandable why the human race would want to fight back against the androids, but he clearly enjoys doing what he does, regardless of programming (he outright tells the protagonist, a sentient android named Eve, "Your suffering pleases me.") Throughout the game, you can see the corpses of blinded androids strewn about the ground, slain by his Executioners. You also get to see the Executioners murder a few androids, as well. He acts as The Bully to Eve, calling her "slave" and "weakling", threatening her if she considers disobeying him, and ordering her to kill herself by various means such as drowning, self-impalement on spikes, and taking a bullet to the head from one of his Executioners. Later on, he orders Eve to kill her free-willed brethren, whom he views as abominations. It's later revealed that his counterpart, Tanas (who may be just as bad as he is, but at least earns a few sympathy points. I'll discuss this in more detail later) was once a gentler part of him, before Gomadi severed him and buried him beneath the wastelands.
How seriously is he played?
Seriously enough to drive his gentler half to take extreme measures to ensure that he will be destroyed. The free-willed androids are frightened of him, and for good reason.
Does he have a Freudian Excuse?
Now this is where it gets complicated: yes, he was created and programmed to restore order and to stop the androids from driving humanity into extinction. However, given his sadism, this does not justify his actions. Although it's unclear whether he's sadistic by choice or by his own programming, he certainly seems to do things that can't be excused by programming, such as severing his gentler half.
Any regrets or remorse?
The only time in the game he displays anything besides hatred for the androids is in the "true" ending, in which he breaks down at the fact that Eve successfully resisted her programming and didn't slay a single android in her quest (slightly off-topic, but contrary to what the main page says, you CAN kill his Executioners in self-defense and still get this ending). He admits to his cynicism about their ability to resist their programming, but what appears to be a Heel Realization is cut short when he vows to return when war rises from the ashes.
Any redeeming qualities?
His counterpart, who is a Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds and a Well-Intentioned Extremist (with emphasis on the "extremist" part, due to the fact that his ultimate goal is to lure androids with free will that he gave them and siphon their batteries so that he can become strong enough to defeat Gomadi) and at least — if you chose to kill him — is okay with dying, as long as you can finish off Gomadi for him. None of this applies to him. His idea of "peace" for Eve if she decides to oblige his final request to "leave this place" is to strip her of free will and let her join the rest of the mindless androids, and I wouldn't put it beneath him to go back on his vow of peace and protection and have her shot by his executioners and harvest her batteries.
Final Verdict
He is unpleasant, cruel, unquestionably fits the criteria for the God Is Evil trope, and has a clear enough personality to get him CM-certified. The only thing I'm on the fence about is his programming, but then again, if Skynet can still be considered a CM, I'll have to say
edited 19th Jan '17 8:39:49 AM by Stellarvore
