Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

If we're going to vote on Felix, I'd really like to see an effortpost first. But, regardless, this is going to be "one of those votes." I can feel it.

Anywho, The Beast now has 7 votes with 1 'abstain', so here's the write-up, and as always, anymore votes are appreciated.

Over the Garden Wall: The Beast is the nightmarish creature that stalks the woods of The Unknown. Finding lost travelers wandering the forest, The Beast would turn their souls into Edelwood trees after driving them into complete despair, then grind the trees into oil to fuel his lantern, prolonging his own life. When The Woodsman steals his lantern, The Beast tricks him into continuing to grind Edelwood trees and keep the lantern burning under the illusion he was saving his daughter's life. The Beast later makes a deal with Greg to show him and his brother, Wirt, the way home, however said deal was just a trick to drive the boy into despair. When Wirt attempts to save Greg, The Beast tries to manipulate him into becoming his new lantern-bearer, falsely promising Greg's soul would be kept alive within the lantern. After Wirt turns down this offer and reveals The Beast's lies to The Woodsman, The Beast makes one last attempt to kill the boys by trying to coerce The Woodsman into cutting them down with his axe. Taking deep joy from committing his atrocities, The Beast was a cruel and manipulative monster who prized his own immortality above all else.

@ACW: I'll add this to the show's YMMV ASAP, and you can add it to next week's batch if that's a-ok.

edited 4th Sep '15 11:15:11 AM by Ravok

Tonight I dine on monkey soup.

We've established that for a work to have a page of its own, it needs five C Ms in it. Bleach has four(Shrieker, Mayuri, Szyael and Aizen). Could the fifth be Yhwach?

Also:

• We really need to resolve Sedessa (Effortpost page 1753)
• I believe Sgorr had enough votes to warrant a write-up.
• Going on Xavier due to previous discussions' reasoning.
• Dr. Ebola (Effortpost page 1750) needs resolution, one way or the other.

Tonight I dine on monkey soup.

I don't really see why Xavier fails the heinous standard. Obviously, that standard is set by Jigsaw and his apprentices. However, Xavier isn't really in the same position as them. They're able to do more villainy on account of being the ones running the tests and traps. Xavier, on the other hand, is simply a test subject. He doesn't have the resources that the other villains do, but manages to be the only villain in the franchise who doesn't have any mitigating factors, or freudian excuses. Jigsaw's a Well-Intentioned Extremist, Amanda has various mental issues, an abusive past, and cares for Jigsaw, and even Hoffman cared about his sister. Xavier? Just a self-serving murderous psychopath.

edited 3rd Sep '15 10:23:33 PM by PostalDude47

The gene pool is stagnant and I am the minister of chlorine.

In response to Rovak's comment above, I'll admit I only just found out yesterday that there even was a complete monster revision page thing going on with this website and I don't actually know what a effort post is. But if I had to take a rough guess, by the Over The Garden Wall paragraph below, you mean an attempt at writing a complete monster entry for Felix (or whichever character were discussing). Thankfully, I was already working on an entry for Felix since I was absolutely certain he qualified, so here's an effort post for Felix.

Red vs. Blue: Felix is probably the biggest bastard in the entire series. He’s introduced as a nice mercenary just trying to help out the Red’s and Blue’s. The next season makes Felix out to be more and more of a jerk until it’s revealed that he’s an outright villain working with Locus to commit genocide on the population of Chorus for a paycheck. Felix manipulated the New Republic for years, assassinating the previous three leaders to keep the war going and used the faked deaths of the Red’s and Blue’s to trick Kimball into leading a final all or nothing assault against the Federal Army of Chorus. At the battle for the radio jammer, Felix bragged to Tucker about how easy it was tricking Kimball into attacking the capital and that even after he was done committing genocide, he would continue killing innocent people because he enjoyed what he was doing. When finding out The Purge would wipe out all sentient life on Chorus that was not in the alien temple that controlled the weapon, Felix was fully willing to go through with it even after Locus pointed out that they would have to sacrifice their own troops, some of them former partners, just to do so. Felix even holds this abusive attitude towards Locus, having manipulated his PTSD for years to keep him from getting actual psychological help after the great war and encouraging his emotional dependence on him because Felix is secretly scared of Locus and is aware that he needs him to survive. When Locus figures this out and, finally having had enough with all the killing, abandons Felix to fend for himself, Felix goes berserk and tries to murder Locus along with the Red’s and Blue’s. A flashback to the great war from Locus perspective shows that Felix wasn’t much better back then, being as much of a trigger happy sociopath as he is in the present. Felix is also repeatedly shown to be an egotistical jackass, unwilling to take any responsibility for his own mistakes and constantly blaming them on everyone else. While other antagonists have shown redeemable traits or been tragic victims themselves, Felix never shows any such excuse for his actions and even seemingly selfless moments are always revealed to be completely malicious self-centered actions that only benefit him. Manipulative, cruel and loving every minute of it, Felix easily shows us why he’s one of the most irredeemable villains in the entire show.

edited 3rd Sep '15 10:50:20 PM by Maiko2853

Personally, for the Beast, I think it should mention the whole tricking Greg into thinking the errands were the help him get home but were in fact to freeze him to death

Also, I'm the guy who originally suggested the Beast as a CM, so you have my .

edited 3rd Sep '15 10:55:27 PM by DuelMark

"Sam Manson is a terrible character."

44014: Yeah, that's why I didn't merge Bleach into the main page.
Speaking of merges, has anyone read the last Discworld book (The Shepherd's Crown)?

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

Yeah, we talked about Saw II's Xavier. My whole argument was that being stuck in a death trap did in fact act as a mitigating circumstance. His crimes committed as a drug dealer are Offstage Villainy, so can't count. Forcing Obi and Amanda to test the traps makes him more of a Dirty Coward than a murderer, as he'll die in a matter of hours himself anyway and didn't build the trap—that's Jigsaw's work. He really doesn't start intentionally killing people until the occupants of the house are literally coughing up their lungs due to the gas. And the first one was a rather ridiculous example of Poor Communication Kills. People in life or death situations whose survival instincts kick in will be driven to do extreme things to make it out. Combine that with Jigsaw and his apprentices' villainy, and he pales in comparison. Compare him to a very similar character from Cube, Quentin, who was in far less immediate danger and murdered people for personal reasons that in no way furthered his own survival.

edited 4th Sep '15 12:51:38 AM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"

Yeah, that sums it up nicely. While his Boss may have envisioned the genocide plan in the first place, it's the absolute sadistic pleasure that Felix takes in his actions that make him a Complete Monster. I've heard someone say that this sadism merely makes him a Jerkass, but I respectfully disagree. When you're murdering people who trust you for fun, you have become something FAR worse than a mere Jerkass.

Honestly though, I'd put Malcolm Hargrove and Felix BOTH on the list, but according to the rules, you're not allowed to have more than one Big Bad in the same show because... potatoes, I guess.

Actually, V for Vendetta had two monsters at the same time. So if they tie, then they both count. Again, let's wait for next week to propose Hargrove and Felix just in case Hargrove manages to out heinous Felix at the end.

Big Bad Duumvirate? And if you mean more than 1 CM, we've had DOZENS (hundreds?) of works with more than 1.

edited 4th Sep '15 5:34:37 AM by ACW

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

I just remember someone on here telling me that having two Complete Monsters broke the "Heinous by the stories standards rule"

You can have more than one in a story, they just have to be unique in some way. What they probably meant was that the work was too dark and its villains too universally evil for anyone to stand out as especially heinous by the high standards of the story.

edited 4th Sep '15 6:56:35 AM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"

@Duel Mark: Done (I think)

edited 4th Sep '15 7:11:04 AM by Ravok

Tonight I dine on monkey soup.

That would make sense. Like, you can't have a work where EVERYONE's a CM, but there are definitely numerous works with more than one. Hell, I'll bet if I looked there are probably works with monsters fighting each other.

edited 4th Sep '15 7:13:42 AM by ACW

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

Resources are another huge factor involved when dtermining who is a complete monster. From Runescape, both Bandos and Sigmund are two separate antagonists in the same quest line, but the former is a god and the latter is a cult leader. A single work can have multiple monsters especially if they operate on different levels.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.

A work can easily have more than one Complete Monster as long as one villain doesn't totally eclipse another in heinousness. Their heinous level has to be "separate but equal."

ACW, Petrie is in the sandbox now. Plus, it'd be abbreviated as fmw, not fmv.

edited 4th Sep '15 9:16:14 AM by futuremoviewriter

You're right. My bad.
Well, as heinous as they can be with what they have. One can't expect, say, someone like Caleb (from Buffy) to have the same bodycount as Angelus, but not for lack of trying.

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

Speaking of Angelus, so is it possible for an alter - ego of an hero who occupies the same body be a CM sometimes ? If it is are there similar examples ?

From Yu-gi-oh, Yami Marik and Yami Bakura are technically alter egos, but the latter is more a case a demonic possession. Also, depending on how you view Griffith from Berserk, his dark half Femto also counts.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.

I should not Angelus is not only an alter ego, he is an entirely different being from Angel, and the two have interacted with great hostility in the past.

Now, Femto is different because Femto is not a different being from Griffith or his dark side. Griffith and Femto are the same person with a different shell and name. Griffith can resume the Femto form whenever he wishes, as seen by his fight with Ganishka.

RE: Felix and Hargrover: I'm gonna need to see a solid effortpost, and a firm discussion of heinous standard. I also do wanna hear from Shaoken on this before we make a decision.

Naturally, I've upvoted Fei Yang, the Scream!Tv Ghostface and The Beast from Over The Garden Wall. I think the Beast is a remarkably simple keeper at that.

I will also give Dr. Ebola yes if I'm remembering the post right.

I think I'll lean yes on Sedessa.

I agree with Morgenthaler on Xavier. The fact is Xavier is almost entirely Offscreen Villainy and snaps in a highly stressful situation, where his crimes are more limited in scale.

I do not recall Angel and Angelus interacting (was that on Buffy which I watched, or Angel which I didn't?). Berserk though...I knew there had to be an example of two CMs fighting each other.

---

G.I. Joe is set up. I'll likely request swapping on Tuesday or so.

edited 4th Sep '15 12:59:31 PM by ACW

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

IT was on Angel...one scene features a trip into Angel's mind when Angelus and Angel loathe one another.

Ganishka and Femto were adamantly opposed as Ganishka is an Apostle who desires liberation from the Godhand, whereas Femto is one of the Godhand.

G.I. Joe looks good.

Also, I've added The Beast to Over the Garden Wall

Tonight I dine on monkey soup.