Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

The fading is definitely real, not an invention, but I remember it as more sort of a basic element of the background then a driving force behind Hellebore's actions or the plot. The costs of the "industrialized magic" system are a much bigger deal. And Lightysnake makes a valid point.

So yeah, still a from me.

edited 20th Oct '14 9:49:10 PM by nrjxll

• Night Of The Generals: Wilhelm Tanz is a fanatical Nazi and an unrepentant serial killer who targets women and uses knives to kill them in sexually depraved manners. Tanz's first known victim to the German army at large is in 1941, initiating an investigation by the far saner and more humane Major Grau. Tanz's brutal tactics with civilians make him stand out among his fellow officers, but Grau is alerted three years later when Tanz kills another woman and frames his driver Hermann for it. When Grau confronts Tanz, having deduced he is the killer, Tanz murders him and frames him as a member of a coup against Hitler. Finally, in the 1960s, Tanz's murder of another woman prompts a reopening of the cold case, finally resulting in Tanz brought to justice.
• Fire & Ice: The film’s Big Bad is the evil Nekron, a sorcerer and the ruler of the lands of ice. He begins the film by magically expanding the glaciers of his realm to literally crush those who stand in his way while slaughtering their villages with the glaciers and the spears of his sub-human followers. Seeking to force the King of the only resisting kingdom Jarol to submit, Nekron's mother Julianna kidnaps Jarol's daughter and has her brought to Nekron. Nekron angrily informs Julianna, who had expected Nekron to breed with her, that if his mother brings him any more "little sluts," he'll kill her himself. When Teegra's brother tries to rescue her, Nekron, while sneering "pigs you are, and like pigs you shall die," uses his magic to force the prince to kill his comrades, before the prince commits suicide. When Larn infiltrates his sanctum, Nekron gets utter delight from beating the warrior down himself and even has him taken away to be healed and rested so Nekron can enjoy crushing him again.
• Kikokugai: The Cyber Slayer:
  • Zhang Jaobu is the head of the Triads' prostitution ring. In the course of his job, Jaobu routinely rapes the girls to break them and was one of five Triad leaders who participated in the attempt on Kong Taolun's life, and then the gang-rape of his sister. After this, Jaobu's group took said sister Ruili to an infamous scientist and split her soul amongst five androids. Jaobu keeps one that he regularly rapes and prostitutes to wealthy clients while thinking that the real fear from the Ruili-bot is what makes it enjoyable.
  • Zhu Shaoyan, known as The Demon Empress, is another of the five who participated in Taolun's attempted murder and the gang rape of Ruili. Herself a serial rapist and serial killer, Shaoyan has modified her cyborg body to rape women with the “right equipment” and to tear her victims apart after. With her own personal Ruili-bot, Shaoyan routinely rapes and tortures her while introducing games to force the other woman to pleasure her within a certain timeframe. Failure to do so will result in horrible torture and abuse. At times, Shaoyan is simply so absorbed in her own thoughts that she damages Ruili anyways. Thinking back to Taolun, Shaoyan only sneers "That bastard was so smug... But I broke his precious little sister with my own two hands!"

edited 21st Oct '14 1:10:04 AM by ACW

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

I'd normally vote yes for any character where their motives are ambiguous, but I'm not sure. Lots of good points are being made on both sides, so I'm going to abstain.

Those writeups also look good.

Trans rights are human rights. If you don't think that, please leave.

Seems my proposal at #31745 was largely overlooked.

Tally so far:

Yes: Me, Very Melon, ACW, Kyle Jacobs

No: Lightysnake, Ambar Sonof Deshar

@31775 Like I said, he let's him live because he abides by the rules and is a willing sex tool for him, there is no indication that he really *loves* him.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian

Think we may have to remove the CM entry for Emperor Joker:

His actions here can stay under his main entry (just like those from The Killing Joke, even though that Joker is most assuredly NOT a CM), but the entry under the work itself probably should go.

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

Agreed. Also, there was a FNAF fanfic that I wanted to discuss. It revolves around the incident in which five children disappeared in the back of the restaurant.

Who is he?

His name is Charles Cooper. He was the first security guard for the pizzeria, and he was also the man responsible for the Missing Children Incident.

What has he done?

In the fanfic, he convinces his boss that he could make the animatronics for him in return for him paying him for the rest of his year in college. His boss agreed, and he left him to build the machines. The next day, he noticed that the machines had been tampered with, and that it was the same five children who messed with the restaurant before that had done it. He then noticed that the machines didn't require that much fixing, and he saw that he only needed arms/legs for the animatronics. He then donned on the Golden Freddy costume, and proceeded to lure the children into the backroom. Once there, he took out a butcher knife and proceeded to hack the children up with it. He then used their arms for the animatronics, and also used the Golden Freddy to dispose of the children's unneeded body parts. He would've gotten away with it had it not have been for the Bite of '87, and he was soon arrested. He was found guilty for five counts of murder and was sentenced to the chair. His only defense was that it was "For education."

Heinous in-story

The fanfic doesn't really have anyone else for Cooper to compete with, so he sets the standard.

Freudian Excuse?

None. While you could make the argument that he was trying to get the extra money to pay for his college years, it doesn't justify murdering children in order for that to happen.

Conclusion

I'd say he counts. Any thoughts?

edited 5th Dec '14 6:00:37 AM by AustinDR

Okay, this is going to sound really weird but I just remembered this villain that I thought was extremely messed up from my childhood: the Headless Knight from the Kenan & Kel Halloween special. Wait, no, don't run just yet! It's been ages since I've seen it, but from what I remember the guy was basically a Slasher Film villain played totally straight. In a sitcom on Nick. Seriously. He even kills named characters, including a little old man.

The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."

Could you provide an effort post?

Unfortunately, that paragraph up there is all I remember about him. He just stuck with me after all these years because murdering an old man isn't something you'd expect to find on Nick.

The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."

I think I'll give Cooper a , though I do have a question to ask: when it comes to Fan Works, would a CM candidate from say, a fan fic or a fan film have to be compared to villains in the official work to qualify? Only asking because I'm hesitating if he'd have to be compared with the bloodthirsty animatronics from the actual game. I mean, they've likely butchered who knows how many security guards over the years yet don't qualify. Then again, Cooper murdered five children which (Outside of the Bite of '87) the animatronics haven't done as far as the game has shown. If his crimes make him stand out compared to the animatronics, then he gets a solid from me. And I apologize if it was a stupid question.

EDIT: Don't know what I was thinking, the murder of five innocent children really sets him apart from the animatronics who may be either malfunctioning machines or (Much more likely)possessed by vengeful spirits. He gets a .

edited 21st Oct '14 9:30:35 PM by FriedWarthog

just like those from The Killing Joke, even though that Joker is most assuredly NOT a CM

I'd have to disagree there. I always found that The Killing Joke was one story where the Joker as a CM was played for tragedy. He's never really remorseful for anything he does in that story, only for what he is, which is a CM. He claims he and Batman are both crazy, but the story shows the differences between Joker and not only Batman but everyone else, showing that he's alone in being a monster as a response to all the bad things in life. And when Batman actually offers him the chance to get help and make peace with him, which he'd been wanting to do all story, Joker's response is a sorrowful yet sadly true "It's too late for me - far too late." The character and the narrative acknowledges that Joker is far gone into Complete Monster territory and paints it in a tragic light. And being shown as tragic and pitiful is not the same as being put in a positive or sympathetic light.

If the story is playing the character for tragedy, they probably aren't a CM.

The badly written Franken Fran entry should be dealt with.

• You get some of these in Franken Fran (and before anyone even considers it, Fran doesn't count; she's physically and psychologically unable to realize what she's doing may not be morally acceptable, and besides, she genuinely wants to help people even when her priorities are skewered). One of her employers, seeking eternal youth, had any doctor that couldn't completely fulfill her request decapitated (including Fran; Fran, however, could survive it) and their research stolen to increase her wealth, as well as mass-murdering clones of herself just to drink a juice made of their eggs. Then there's the "Very Lucky Man", a man born with an accelerated Healing Factor. He spent his entire life raping and killing because he knew there was no way to execute him for his crimes.

First and foremost, get rid of the bit about Fran not qualifying. Also, the two characters should probably be listed separately.

• Franken Fran:
  • One of Fran's employers, seeking eternal youth, had any doctor that couldn't completely fulfill her request decapitated (including Fran; Fran, however, could survive it) and their research stolen to increase her wealth, as well as mass-murdering clones of herself just to drink a juice made of their eggs.
  • Then there's the "Very Lucky Man", a man born with an accelerated Healing Factor. He spent his life raping and killing because he knew there was no way to execute him for his crimes.

Now apparently Franken Fran is a pretty fucked up manga so I wonder what the heinous standard is. I'm also not sure if these entries provide enough detail.

Anyone have thoughts about Franken Fran?

Franken Fran, now THAT'S a series I've been meaning to get into but have been a bit lazy about doing so (Story of my life, at least when it comes to comics/anime/TV...). I'm not sure what the heinous standard is like in that manga, so for now I'll try to expand both entries with what I'm given here.

• One of Fran's employers was a vain scientist who sought out eternal youth. In the pursuit of said eternal youth, she was shown to be very intolerant towards any doctor who failed her, and would punish them by decapitation and would steal their research on top of that for the sake of turning profits. Not just monstrous to the doctors she hired, she also had a thing for slaughtering clones of herself for the sake of drinking the juice from their eggs.

• The psychotic mass murderer and serial rapist known as the "Very Lucky Man" was known as such because of his advanced healing factor. Thanks to said healing factor there was no way for him to be executed and knowing this, he defiled and slaughtered as many people as he could manage.

I feel a little better about the vain scientist than the Very Lucky Man, but neither entry I feel is that good thanks to my lack of Franken Fran knowledge. That, and I kinda wonder how they'd stack up to Fran herself.

I just saw a subpage titled Monster.Star Trek. Aside from the misuse of formatting, was this discussed here?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

We did discuss it, but I don't think we decided on making the page yet.

Anyhow, it's time I finally got this off my chest. I've got another candidate, this time from the How to Train Your Dragon series, again, this time from Dragons: Riders of Berk. Said character isn't Alvin, but instead the second Big Bad, Dagur the Deranged. Drago might be hard to top, but read on.

Who is he?

Dagur the Deranged, is, as his name suggests, the Ax-Crazy leader of the Berserkers and is the Big Bad of the show's second season, Defenders of Berk. Following right after Alvin, Dagur quickly establishes himself as the show's most heinous villain.

What has he done?

Before the main plot even begins, Dagur is heavily implied to have murdered his own father, and seized control of the Berserkers, because Dagur didn't like his father's pacifistic views. In the first episode he appears in, Dagur has taken control of the Berserkers and comes to Berk for its "peace treaty," which involves signing a treaty of, well, peace, in dragon blood to ensure no war breaks out. At this time, Dagur doesn't actually know the dragons have been domesticated, and is looking for any excuse he can for killing a dragon. Dagur merrily introduces himself by throwing knives at Hiccup (this was before their later fallout) and taking his opportunity to try and happily slaughter a Hideous Zippleback, which is chained down and helpless against his advance. Interrupted by a clever, staged attack, Dagur hastily retreats and is forced to consider the treaty signed.

Dagur returns as the villain in focus of the second season, returning to Berk with still no idea that the dragons have been domesticated. Dagur fancies himself a dragon hunter. Unlike Drago, who kidnaps and enslaves dragons, Dagur simply kills them outright, regardless of the threat they put up. Impressed by Hiccup's earlier display, Dagur displays a twisted respect for Hiccup and tries to take him dragon hunting. After the truth is revealed, Dagur decides It's Personal and sets in a deep grudge for Hiccup, because he likes dragons and he hates them. This snuffs out his only possible redeeming trait for the series, and even after learning the dragons have been tamed and are at peace, he still tries to kill them.

In his next appearance, Dagur ends up feuding with Berk and Alvin's tribe, the Outcasts, over an electric dragon called the Skrill. Dagur ultimately secures a false deal with Alvin, before quickly turning on him, apparently electrocuting him to death, and forcefully seizing control of the Outcasts.

Now with the idea of initiating all-out war, Dagur spends the next few episodes attempting to destroy Berk. He devises a multitude of tactics for attacking Berk; building a catapult made to ensnare both dragon and rider, and uses this to capture and attempt to kill Hiccup, stealing all of the island metal to leave Berk vulnerable, and planting "Dragon Root" inside Berk's academy, driving the dragons into a frenzy and making them attack anything, dragon or human. Dagur finally obtains the upper hand by holding Hiccup's friends hostage, but is interrupted by Alvin, who (like his book version) somehow managed to survive Dagur electrocuting him. Determined not to leave empty handed, Dagur instead kidnaps Stoick and intends to barter with his life.

When Hiccup and Alvin infiltrate Dagur's home base, Dagur imprisons Hiccup and attempts to forcefully enslave Toothless and turn it into a death machine. At the end of all this, a rare breed of dragon, the Screaming Death, shows up, Dagur realizes why it came and takes the Screaming Death's mother. This ultimately leads to his final downfall, as after the Screaming Death family is reunited, Dagur is confronted by a rightfully pissed Alvin, who presumably prepares to do away with him offscreen.

Aside from other things, Dagur's ultimate goal is to cause a war just for the sake of causing a war. He's notoriously cruel; he's driven by his Blood Knight tendencies, taking every opportunity he can get to either take something hostage or kill it, even if it can't put up a fight. He kept Hiccup's friend Fishleg in a cramped cage for an entire day, abuses his Dragon, Savage, and threatens to cut off one of his soldier's legs (actually a hero in disguise) for smacking their lips. Dagur is unhinged, to say the least.

Any mitigating factors?

As per usual, let's talk about the heinous standard and right now, Dagur's only major contender: Drago Bludvist. Dagur and Drago share a lot of the same crimes (being dragon hunters, trying to destroy Berk, killing/trying to kill a dragon, and dealing some damage to Hiccup's father) but Dagur arguably has a more widespread laundry list. Dagur hunts dragons not to force them into servitude (except for that one time with Toothless) but to kill the things for sport. Now, before you say that Drago succeeded in a lot of things that Dagur didn't, like mass murder and destroying a majority of Berk, keep in mind Dagur was also trying to do those things on a regular basis; he just didn't end up with the degree of success of Drago. Dagur tried to destroy Berk many a time, and had his planned war broken out, that inevitably would have lead to death, death, death. One last thing is Drago's murder of Stoick. Stoick was a major character and that should put him a firm head above Dagur, but again, Drago was aiming for Hiccup. Stoick's death ended up an accident, simply because of his Heroic Sacrifice, while Drago was using Toothless to try and kill Hiccup. Dagur tries to kill Hiccup virtually every time they met (even before they became real enemies, Dagur was tossing knives at him) and also managed to kidnap Stoick and kept him hostage. Had Hiccup not replied to Dagur's message within a day, he most certainly would have killed him. Intentionally. He even casually talks about how Stoick needed to be "eliminated."

As for the other villains in the TV Series, Riders of Berk, Dagur doesn't face much competition. Mildew poisons dragons but otherwise remains a minor threat, Alvin was guilty of some major stuff but had a Heel Realization, and all the dragon threats never really did much. By the end, everyone, villain and friend alike, have united to stop this bastard.

Aside from that, Dagur had zero empathetic or redeeming qualities. He was somewhat humorous, but like any good cartoon villain, Dagur was treated seriously when the time required it, and his crimes were not played for laughs.

Conclusion?

Dagur's a violent Blood Knight, an attempted murderer on at least a dozen cases (and successful in his father's case), an aspiring warmonger, and a petty psychopath. Even in the face of the Knight of Cerebus that is Bludvist, Dagur manages to stand out in both the TV show and the series.

edited 22nd Oct '14 12:58:18 AM by Scraggle

Killing Joke: I actually felt sorry for the Joker; he's bad there, but IMHO nowhere NEAR a CM. If no issues, I'll cut that stub from Emperor Joker and submit these tomorrow morning.

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

on Dagur. I saw the whole series. He's freaking horrible. Nobody else was nearly as horrible and even some bad guys turned good eventually.

on Killing Joke Joker for reasons stated earlier.

...It's weird having so many websites and no way to properly display now, lol.

I don't even think that was a debate for KJ!Joker

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

I've read some of it, and the Franken Fran people definitely count. It is an incredibly fucked up series, but not in a way that gives it a high heinous standard. Basically, Fran is the Frankenstein-esque (hence the name) creation of a doctor who grew up to be a doctor herself, and is genuinely brilliant at what she does. Her sole priority is life saving, and she almost always succeeds in the face of incredible odds. However, thanks to her Blue-and-Orange Morality, she's somewhat incapable of grasping that people might have priorities beyond "alive." The result? Buckets and buckets of Body Horror, seasoned with a dash of And I Must Scream.

for Dagur.

to Dagur.

Also @Hamburger Time, your Kenan & Kel example, aroused my curiosity. I looked up this Headless Knight, so if you need further information on him, here's what I got off of him.

The Headless Knight was a ghost or some undead entity, who of course was a knight who was decapitated in battle. He goes around killing people so he can use their heads for his own, and has made his way to the town of Rockville. He disposes of their bodies by cannibalising them. In the TV movie he appears in, he poses as a Faux Affably Evil nobleman who lives in a mansion, and kills four people. When the titular duo arrive at his mansion, he let them in to take them hostage. There is a scene where they eat dinner and they unwittingly eat human meat. Near the end of the film its implied he was about to kill a couple who helped Kenan and Kel escape his mansion. Now being decapitated isn't exactly a good Freudian Excuse, especially when it results in you decapitating people and eating their bodies.

So yeah, he's pretty bad, the thing is, Kenan and Kel is a Dan Schneider show and Dan see's humor in everything, so even this Darker and Edgier movie has funny moments, what with the duos being Cloud Cuckolander's. There is a black comedy moment where Kel finds the decapitated heads and talks to them before realizing they are dead. Even the Knight has some humor to him. At the end of the movie, Kenan's father Roger finds the disembodied head of the knight, who sheepishly asks if he can help find his body and tells blatant lies when he says "I'm not going to hurt you...I'm a nice guy !" and when Roger walks away nervously the head whines "Come on ! I promise I'll be good from now on!". The thing is, while it has Black Comedy, I wonder if it's enough to distract from his evil deeds.

edited 22nd Oct '14 9:07:16 AM by Beast

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."

Laughably Evil does not a Complete Monster preclude. See Xykon.

I reformated the Star Trek page and added Colonel Adrik Thorsen from Star Trek: Federation.

Re: Frankenfran: I think Fran's sister is probably the measure stick to use to judge who is heinous enough. IIRC she has a large number of murders under her belt.