The Scrappy Cleanup

While audience reaction is the basis for a scrappy, people who call a character a scrappy because of misinterpreting events, biased, or favoritism towards another character is important to consider too. Danu being labeled as a scrappy seems to be on the basis that "How dare she do that to Dagda, my favorite character", and if you look at the argument presented on the YMMV page it reads as this:

• While the game is full of Base-Breaking Character's, one that many are in agreement with and that gets a surprising amount of bile ends up being Danu. Reasons range from finding her complacent and/or hypocritical as well as extremely controlling of those around her on top her constantly being put on the moral high-ground. Her actions at the Cosmic Egg did her no favors either.

All of these examples are vague such as "complacency/hypocritical". If the example explained it then there could be a understandable reason for it, but it seems all anyone has an issue with is Danu making a new Dagda, one that is based on when he was more idealistic. Also Dagda is just as controlling, hypocritical, and at the Cosmic Egg he tries to kill the protagonist if they don't go along with his plan, yet nobody seems to label him a scrappy for it. Danu seems more like a Base Breaker because of how vague these scrappy qualifications are.

edited 3rd Jan '17 4:13:53 PM by keyblade333

Muramasa got.

Besides, even if Danu qualifies as The Scrappy, that entry has an unneeded mention about the game having a lot of Base Breaking Characters. That information does not belong in The Scrappy, it belongs in Base-Breaking Character.

Also, we want to make sure the the entries are really talking about a character that has received a negative reaction from a vast majority of the fandom, and not just a few disgruntled people trying to use the trope to complain about a character they don't like, especially since the website is trying to cut down on the complaining.

Again, the only "scrappy qualification" is that enough people hate them. "How dare X do that to a favorite character" can certainly be a reason for that. Is it a good reason? Doesn't matter.

edited 3rd Jan '17 5:54:37 PM by nrjxll

The issue I have with the argument that a potential Scrappy does something against someone's favourite character is that it singles out a specific segment of the fanbase (the fans of that specific character) and implies it's a universal opinion. It's not a good argument on its own, and it does require context about why that applies to the vast majority of the work's fanbase.

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We also want to make sure that tropers aren't using The Scrappy as a way to complain about characters they don't like. YMMV is meant to categorize audience reactions, not provide tropers with an outlet for complaining.

The Danu example, as written right now, comes across as someone not liking the character and trying to pass off their complaints as something the vast majority of the fanbase shares. And even if it does turn out that the vast majority of the fanbase doesn't like her (which I personally haven't seen), the example is still a bit too vague and there's also the issue that the editor who added it in edit-warred.

Hey guys, I've been busy with the holidays and holiday cleanup and haven't gone on in a while, but I did get a response from Ms CC 93, regarding why Scrappy's entry is ontop. They wrote: "I don't know. I haven't logged in since forever." (Should I take a screenshot of the actual message?) What should we do now?

Seems like it could be a case of Example as a Thesis, though I think getting a mod's opinion on this might be a good idea.

So, any consensus on the Danu entry under Shin Megami Tensei IV: Apocalypse?

I'll say this: I've never heard anyone defend Danu.

That isn't to say I necessarily think she's the Scrappy (I don't really have much of an opinion on her, though she definitely did get more grating as the game went on), and the fandom overall definitely gives Dagda some leather pants) but if she is a base-breaker, I think it's skewed to the dislike her side.

Honestly, I'd ask in the SMT thread.

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I'm curious as to how well-received Danu was in Japan, since it's been established in this thread that Americans Hate Tingle is mutually exclusive with The Scrappy.

Looking over the Danu entry again, it seems a bit too complainy currently. If Danu does qualify as The Scrappy, then that entry needs to be re-written so that it doesn't seem like a troper having an axe to grind with the character.

Per Larkman's suggestion, I've asked in the Shin Megami Tensei IV Spoilers thread for opinions on Danu. So far, I've got someone saying she's more of a Base-Breaking Character, and another person saying they've heard a lot of bad things that turned out to be creative interpretations of her actions.

edited 6th Jan '17 7:00:48 AM by dragonfire5000

Danu seems to be more of a Base Breaking Character than an outright scrappy. I'm not sure if people are just too biased to see this for themselves, but it might not be a matter of favoritism towards Dagda; Dagda himself manipulates you (sometimes literally, by taking control of your body and forcing you to do things), advises you to walk a path free from others (while he's been manipulating you to create a new universe where gods like him are forces of nature), and outright attempts to kill you if you refuse to use the Cosmic Egg and instead opt to destroy it. Seems to be a lot more controlling than Danu. I think they just genuinely dislike her for hypocrisy, but in any case it doesn't seem widespread enough to outright call her a Scrappy.

edited 7th Jan '17 2:41:23 AM by PastryPerson

Actually, now that I think about it, I do remember seeing a couple people in the thread completely whitewash Danu's questionable actions, which indicates support for her.

Definitely think that she's more disliked than liked, but not universally. Changing my vote to BBC.

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Looks like we've got four people here (including me) who think that the character should be placed under Base-Breaking Character. I'll wait a bit more to see what others have to say.

Not familiar at all, but in my opinion, that's enough doubt to not count as The Scrappy.

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If there are no objections, I'm going to move Danu into Base-Breaking Character. Alright with everyone here?

Fine with me.

I've moved Danu into Base-Breaking Character. Thank you everyone that weighed in on the issue.

Now I've got another The Scrappy entry that needs to be looked at, this time from 7th Dragon:

• In 2020, Aoi would have gained a lot more respect if she can read the atmosphere and shut up. She wants to be a Blithe Spirit, but she ends up being insensitive.
• Also in 2020, Chiron.

The only 7th Dragon game I've ever played was the third one, so I don't know how accurate the first entry is. However, I feel like the two entries are too vague, making the first one feel complainy and the second one is a Zero Context Example. Thoughts?

Pretty much. Not enough context in either. The first makes it look more like nitpicking about a certain trait, and if a single trait can make a character good, it doesn't make for a good argument that everyone absolutely hates that character.

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The Arkham Knight is listed as The Scrappy. He's already listed under Base-Breaking Character, which is far more accurate. A good few Awesome entries are focused on just how cool the Arkham Knight is, so I highly doubt "universally hated" can describe him.

edited 13th Jan '17 6:45:14 AM by Riley1sCool

I don't know much about the fanbase, but if you think that the Arkham Knight is a better fit for Base-Breaking Character, take him out of The Scrappy and make sure to bring up this thread in the edit note, inviting anyone who thinks he should be The Scrappy to come here and discuss things.

I don't watch the show, so I can't really say much, but the entries for Arrow might need some looking at. As an outsider, at least a few of these seem more like Base-Breaking Character examples:

• The Scrappy:
  • Thea to some fans in the first 2 seasons, due to being a brat who's main redeeming traits were her occasional Heartwarming moments with her family and her surprisingly endearing relationship with Roy Harper. This completely changed in Season 3 when she Took A Level In Bad Ass, combined with her improved relationship with Oliver (including discovering Ollie's secret and thanking him rather than getting angry) and her excellently acted character arc with Malcolm Merlyn.
  • Helena Bertinelli/Huntress. A lot of Birds of Prey fans, and fans in general of the comics, absolutely detest the show's depiction, primarily because it changes her from an Anti-Hero to an Anti-Villain, reduced her competence so Oliver can mentor her, and a general dislike for how she jumps down the slippery slope.
  • Laurel started off as a Base-Breaking Character in Season 1 who devolved into the Scrappy in the first half of Season 2. She became more likeable by the end of the season and after fading in-and-out of this over the next season, by mid-Season 4 she was Rescued from the Scrappy Heap enough that when she's killed off, the internet went ballistic.
  • Malcom Merlyn starting Season 3. There is a whole buttload of people who wish nothing more than to finally see him die in Season 4 for everything he has done.
  • William, Oliver's son. Mainly because he's less a character and more of a plot device to create unnecessary drama between Felicity and Oliver. Not to mention that he won't carry on his father's legacy as the Green Arrow. That honor goes to John Diggle Jr.
  • By Season 4, Felicity had grown into this. Though she's still well-liked by the Olicity shippers, she's received considerable hate for her more annoying traits. Notably, the problems people had with Thea and Laurel in the first two seasons seem to have been completely absorbed by Felicity over the third and fourth seasons. It's gotten to the point more than a few fans have stated they wish it was Felicity in the grave instead of Laurel.
  • While Artemis gets a lot of scorn, as explained in Replacement Scrappy above, Rene Ramirez/Wild Dog looks to be this even more so in the early episodes of Season 5 among the new recruits. Though Rene has a perfectly valid point about Oliver's lack of trust concerning the team, he also has habitual Leeroy Jenkins tendencies which led to Sampson gaining superhuman physical constitution and the death of a valuable lead in short order, along with being hotheaded and confrontational—generally making him insufferable both in-universe and out. It doesn't help that this recycles the "X character has a chronic inability to listen to/work with Oliver because of interpersonal conflict" subplot that was seen with Mirakuru!Roy, Laurel in-training as Black Canary, and Felicity over the last three seasons. When Wild Dog wisely decided to take on Church without any backup and with his meager skillset, several fans were perfectly fine with Ollie & co. being forced to leave him to his fate. He does start to move past his faults as the season progresses, however, and strikes up a pretty good friendship with Diggle by the time of "Vigilante," so redemption may be within reach.

edited 20th Jan '17 4:08:56 AM by supergod

For we shall slay evil with logic...

Don't know the work or the fanbase, so this is based on the writeups.

Thea sounds like at best a weak example in the beginning, and then she's not at all. Cut.

Helena's entry focuses on previous fans, while ignores the masses. Needs a rewrite or cut.

Laurel is also at best temporarily a very weak example. Cut.

Malcom sounds like a hatesink. No context.

William's entry doesn't describe any hate. Needs a rewrite or cut.

Felicity. "Though she's still well-liked by..." Cut.

Rene's entry says a little about getting scorn, but in the end it softens up to where it seems like a speculative example. Needs a rewrite or cut.

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Helena is really hated by all and indeed was removed for the show. Stay. Laurel is more a Base Breaker. Malcom is not an Hate Sink. He started like a cool Big Bad and had many fans in early seasons. Felicity is maybe a Base Breaker? (90% scrappy and 10% loved by Olicity shipper).

For the rest, i dont watch the actual season, so dont know the characters. You need talk with who write in the Arrowverse page.

edited 21st Jan '17 1:23:15 AM by rafi

I'm not sure about the entry on YMMV.Jack Reacher Never Go Back. It was added just four days after the film hit theatres and seems very confused, claiming the character was disliked but also redeemed.

From YMMV.Mobile Suit Gundam Iron Blooded Orphans:

• The Scrappy: After Season 2 Episode 11, a large part of the fanbase have been clamoring for Iok to just die in the next episode, partly for his reckless actions. Some fans who previously harbored hate towards Carta in Season 1 went further and considered Iok to be a bigger Replacement Scrappy. Episode 40 cemented this status after ignoring Naze's surrender and gunning the Turbines' Hammerhead and the escape shuttes which killed both Amida and Naze.

I'm pretty sure we're supposed to hate him for his actions in episode 40. In hindsight, it's likely we were also supposed to hate him for his idiocy as well. Thoughts on keeping of cutting? (Perhaps wait until the series ends to see how he plays out to decide if he qualifies?)

Also, these entries were deleted in TheScrappy.Pokemon by someone bitter over this threads decision that Alain did not qualify.

• Out of the main cast Max gets the most hate. Certainly being an insufferable know-it-all and his apparent pointlessness qualify him as prime Scrappy material. However, he did have some decently-done heartwarming moments. One of Max's problems is that he's a Tagalong Kid to levels near being The Load. Whenever an episode stars him, it gives you the indication that he's going to start catching Pokémon for himself, but he never does (due to being underage). He promises one Ralts that he would come back and train it one day. He never actually does anything truly important to the story aside from being a character that May can interact with.
• Tracey, though a large reason for hatred of this character is due to his unsatisfying replacement of Brock in the Orange Islands arc, he contributed so little to the group dynamic that he's seen as pointless. Even the American localization team for Pokémon 2000 agreed he was kind of a pointless character, to the point of decreasing his role in the movie by deleting several of his scenes so that all he really does in the dub is pull Ash and Misty out of the ocean at one point.
• Tobias, who, even among the trainers who eliminate Ash from official tournaments, really stands out in how hated they are. Firstly, he has extremely little buildup before his battle with Ash, only appearing in a few cameos. Then there's how he defeats Ash. He wins 6-2 over Ash, and the only two Pokémon he reveals from his party are Latios and Darkrai, two legendary Pokémon. It is never revealed how he obtained them, and he seems to serve no purpose other than to eliminate Ash. Many fans even took this entire thing as a huge slap in the face.
• Trip, Ash's Rival from Black and White, isn't well received by a lot of fans either. People either dislike him for being a weak replacement for Paul, or just find him and his interactions with Ash irritating, especially his insistence on dismissing Ash's home region. And for basically replacing Cheren, who many fell would've been a better choice of a rival... Thankfully, unlike Paul, Trip's abrasiveness is toned down later, and he isn't as much of a Creator's Pet.
• Paul himself was a Scrappy to many people for his extreme Jerkass attitude towards Pokémon training and to anyone who questioned his methods, for being a Creator's Pet with a Misaimed Fandom, and for being Easily Forgiven by Ash after the latter finally defeated him.
• Cameron. Introduced at the end of the Junior Cup arc, he displayed far greater traits of an Idiot Hero than Ash ever did. Not only did he miss the tournament, but he thought the Unova League took place in Ecruteak City in Johto. He also got Ash lost in the woods, and even his own Riolu is disappointed with him; affectionately giving a Face Palm at his actions. It doesn't help that one, he defeated fan favorite Bianca in what many perceived to be a cheap win, and two, the kid has scary-ass evolved Pokémon that prove to be a huge threat, like a damned Hydreigon and his little Riolu which seems to have gotten through Training from Hell like one would expect from Ash's Pikachu. To add further insult to the injury, he brings only 5 Pokemon to an official Unova League match of 6-on-6 against Ash. Worse yet, Cameron's Riolu has received a lot of hate due to how he mimics his trainer's hyperactive attitude. The worst of all is Riolu evolving to Lucario as a last ditch attempt to defeat Ash's Snivy and Pikachu in the league. And then it happened: Lucario defeated Pikachu, and Cameron won the battle against Ash, meaning Ash has yet again lost a major league, this time to such an air-headed trainer, and adding insult to injury in that Cameron was handicapped by having one less Pokemon than Ash. But as a bit of small consolation, Cameron lost to Virgil, who then went on to win the league.
• Virgil also has notable hate for apparently having all of Eevee's evolutions and an Eevee itself, for the sake of making him "unique" as a trainer, but he was rather bland and not incredibly developed. To make matters worse, he spontaneously got to be in the tournament (by coincidentally getting all the badges), had almost no interaction with the main cast (at least Cameron shared tons of scenes with Ash), zero build-up (his introductory episode was the episode right before the tournament started), and wins the tournament when his Eevee knocked out a Druddigon with a rather overpowered move. This lands him firmly in Creator's Pet territory. He's basically a grown-up Ritchie. It's notable that the hate for Virgil comes mostly from American fans, whereas in Japan he's actually an Ensemble Dark Horse.

Should any of them be added back?

edited 26th Jan '17 9:27:20 PM by Ferot_Dreadnaught

Should Mr. Iwamoto from YuYu Hakusho count? He's a Jerkass who refuses to see Yusuke and Kuwabara's potential, often resorting to underhanded tactics to get them expelled. While he might be a Hate Sink because of his Jerkass behavior, some felt he always gets off easily. Despite it being proven that he stole from the students and framed Yusuke for it (and in the anime, was the one who encouraged Mr. Akashi to erase Kuwabara's answer to fail his test), he keeps his job up until the end of the series.