Shoehorning in the ensembles

Animorphs needs to go. Being a Blood Knight isn't wife-like or even motherly and being Ax-Crazy doesn't sound sexual at all. As for The Fresh Prince Of Bel Air, I don't think it works anyway and I think the characters should have to be in the same general generation to count, not mother and daughter.

About 'making the difference clear in the trope discription' the page used to say this: "When adding examples, please note that the sexual aspect of the "seductress" must be present, and cannot be replaced with some other characteristic, like "anger" or "strength" or "selfishness". Also note that the second character is wife, not a maternal character, a woman who gives birth or one with any other motherly trait, but one who would make a good life partner. The innocent aspect of the child must be present, not Kids Are Cruel. Remember not to put a square peg in a round trope." Desert Dragon removed it claiming, 'I would dare argue that that's not a huge deal; the "seductress's" primary attribute is her aggressiveness, and the "wife" is all about strength and compassion. These characters don't have to be forced into the context of a relationship, since that leads to Unfortunate Implications that female characters are only good for love interests.' The note was only saying what was already in the page. I don't know how it can be more clear.

edited 8th Jan '13 5:49:22 PM by lexicon

I've put that back. The seductress is aggressive, yes, but she must be sexually aggressive, not violently or angrily aggressive. Otherwise it wouldn't be "Seductress" it would be "Warrior" or "Fighter".

Ok, hmm, let's see...it's been a long time since I [[strikeout]]was dragged to[[/strikeout]] saw The First Wives Club, but I think that one might actually fit. Worth a second opinion at any rate.

As for Birds of Prey, I'm only familiar with the comic, but it definitely does not fit there. Dinah isn't at all childish, and she nearly matches the Huntress as far as dressing sexy goes. Meanwhile, the Huntress, while she indisputably wears nearly Stripperific garb, does not go around being all seductive and stuff. She's a fighter.

The TV series might have changed all that, but I think it's more likely to be shoehorning.

eta: I agree that Town Girls might fit some of these better.

edited 8th Jan '13 6:05:40 PM by Xtifr

Okay, I see your point about the groups, willthiswork. In Dragon Age II, as I mentioned, those are the three main female NPCs; the other main NPCs are male. The player character can be either gender, but I don't know that that would be a disqualifier because the PC has the personality that the player wants the PC to have.

Anyway, regarding the characters: Aveline is the only character to start the story married (although she is quickly widowed), and the only character almost^note Turning down the related quest might cause her to end up single; I don't know guaranteed to end in a relationship. She's wise, honest, caring, no-nonsense, and a capable leader; she takes her responsibilities as captain of the city guard seriously and strives very hard to keep the men and women under her as safe as possible.

Merrill is innocent to the point of stupidity and approaches everything with wide-eyed wonder and optimism. She gets puppy crushes on pretty much anyone who's nice to her, and is all around sweet and naive.

Isabela flirts with everyone and makes no bones about her love of sex and no attempt to hide her past sexual exploits. She is the most provocatively dressed member of the party. (She wears a thong. This is noticeable just from going about the game.)

I'm going to start by taking out the examples I recognize but first I'd like to say that if the example says that the seductress is unwitting or reluctant it needs to go. The page specifically mentions that she's independent. She's choosing to draw him in. I added a line about the distinction between this and Town Girls.

Good point, lexicon. You're completely correct, too. The Seductress is kind of complicated — it's a personality type (independent and self-determined) and a behavior pattern (sexually experienced and sexually aggressive) and a methodology (uses sexuality as a tool).

By the same token, the Wife is more than "the one who has a lover/husband/partner"; she needs to be the one who is stable and day-to-day competent; the one who would be running the household calmly and ably (even if she isn't actually running a household).

edited 9th Jan '13 9:24:46 AM by Madrugada

@26 Wow, I am basically laughing my ass off over here at the irony of pulling decription because it gives the trope "unfortunate implications." This trope is made of unfortunate implications! The trope exists as a result of historically male-dominated societies having historically limited veiws on women as people and classiflying them in context of their relationships to men. Bleh, I could write up an analysis page on the unfortunate implications of the three faces of eve if I were not such a shit writer, they are a part of the trope.

I am going to go ahead and cross of the Bel-Air example, since I am mostly feeling the same way as you on that.

@28 From what I have read of the Birds of Prey comic I am inclined to agree, but on the other hand I would not be surprised if the TV show completely butchered it either! IIRC Huntress was a seductress type in the Justice League cartoon, but I am having a hard time seeing Black Canary as the child in any universe.

@29 Thank you! I agree that for games of this type the player character probably does not count due to the fact s/he is meant to be a player stand-in and therefore has not real set personality (or gender, in this case). I added your write-ups to the main page. I am hoping that nice, thourough write-ups will help discourage those pesky zero context-ers!

I am trying to hammer out the Final Fantasy examples.

Currently the entry is this:

• Final Fantasy games in general have a permutation of this trope, in which the three playable females (and there are always three; see the Three Females Rule in the Grand List) are almost always represented as the following:
  • Innocent Princess (The Chick, White Magician Girl, Mysterious Waif, Rebellious Princess) — Delicate, feminine and frequently in love with the hero. Almost always gets him in the end, if she is.
    • Prominent examples: Rosa, Lenna, Terra, Tifa and/or Aerith, Ovelia, Rinoa, Dagger, Yuna, Ashe, and Serah.
  • Tough But Sexy (Cool Big Sis, Black Magician Girl, Action Girl) — Tougher, more tomboyish, and usually in love with the hero but unable to express it. Almost never gets him in the end.
    • Prominent examples: The Adult Rydia, Faris, Celes, Tifa and/or Aerith, Agrias, Quistis, Freya, Beatrix, Lulu, Paine, Fran, Lightning, and Fang.
  • Perky Girl (Bratty Half-Pint, Genki Girl) — Teenaged (sometimes younger) girls who tags along basically to provide an upbeat contrast to the other two. Never gets the hero in the end (except Penelo), and doesn't much mind, even if she has a crush on him.
    • Prominent examples: The Young Rydia, Porom (although she's pretty calm for this type), Krile, Relm, Yuffie (although she's pretty aggressive for this type), Alma, Selphie, Eiko, Rikku, Penelo (though not as energetic as the rest), Filo, and Vanille.
  • Though Final Fantasy VII offers a subversion. While Aerith looks like the Innocent Princess and Tifa looks Tough But Sexy, the mischievous and headstrong Aerith is actually the Tough But Sexy, while the kind and motherly Tifa is actually the Innocent Princess.
  • Final Fantasy X is especially guilty, not only because of what was mentioned above, but also because of the Magus Sister aeons (based on the Magus Sisters from Final Fantasy IV): a tall, sexy praying mantis(?); a short, cute bumblebee; and a plump, round ladybug. Also the three main females have calm and reserved Yuna as the wife, innocent and perky Rikku as the child while vampy and sexy Lulu is the seductress.

What I have written so far:

• Final Fantasy games in general have a pattern to their three playable females (and there are always three; see the Three Females Rule in the Grand List) are almost always represented as an Innocent Princess type, a Tough but Sexy Type, and a Pery Girl type. Occationally this overlaps with the faces of Eve archtypes, although often times the Tough but Sexy character is not a seductress but more passively sexy.
  • ''Final Fantasy VIII
    • Rhinoa is the wife, the fact she is the protagonists romantic interest is brought on my her calm, gentle demeaner, her selflessness, and her pleasent girl-nest-door character design.
    • Quistis is the seductress, she not only plays a short list of fetishes, but she is activly flirty and far more mature than the other women.
    • Selphe is the child, her hyperactively, relentless perkness is exagerated to the point of annoying even the other characters.
  • Final Fantasy X
    • Yuna is in the wife role, she is unerringly calm and lives to helps others. She is self sacrificing, soft-spoken, and graceful.
    • Lulu is in the seductress role, most obviously in how she dresses, the tone she uses when she speaks, and how she holds her self and moves around in her battle animations.
    • Rikku is in the child role, the fact that she is the youngest is exagerated by her consistently upbeat personality, her sweet but shortsighted convictions, and her occational ditziness.
    • As a bonus the Magus Sisters aeon plays to this trope visually; a plump, round ladybug: a tall, full-figured praying mantis; and a short, cute bumblebee.

The following examples I propose should be cut:

• Final Fantasy 4 - Rosa, Rydia, Porom: Rydia is an innocent fanservice girl not a seductress
• Final Fantasy 6 - Celes, Terra, Relm: Not clear wife/ seductress dictonomy between Celes and Terra, again sexy-looking does not equal seductress
• Final Fantasy 7 - Aerith, Tifa, Yuffy: Already listed as a subversion, it fits visually but not in personality/ roles. Tifa looks like a seductress but she is more of a girl-next-door in her role.
• Final Fantasy 9 - Dagger, Freya, Eiko: Dagger and Eiko fit, but Freya is not the seductress just because she is attractive. I only played the first disc and a half though so let me know if I am missing something
• Final Fantasy 10-2 - Yuna, Paine, Rikku: Yuna and Rikku are more rounded in 10-2 than they were in 10 and no longer fit the Wife and child roles.

Games I have not played and need help with

• Final Fantasy 5 - Lenna, Feris, Krile
• Final Fantasy 12 - Ashe, Freya, Panelo
• Final Fantasy 13 - ??? (I am pretty sure this is shoehorning based on the write up, but I have not touched this game basically at all)

edited 9th Jan '13 9:46:54 AM by willthiswork

Here, let me help:

• FF 4: Rydia, a seductress. HA HA HA—No. Agree with cut.
• FF 7: Neither is really a seductress. Tifa may be laden with fanservice but she's not acting particularly sexual. Aerith is complicated.
• FF 9: Yeah, Freya is the fighting type. She is never presented as remotely sexual.
• FF 8 and 10 rewrites are okay.
• FF 10-2: Every girl has turned a bit more seductive, but if anything, Paine is not, making it lack a role.
• FF 12: Hrrrrrrrr, Ashe isn't exactly an innocent princess. She's tough, hot-blooded, vengeful and almost makes terrible decisions because she can't hold back the hate. Yes, she's loyal to her dead husband and country, but she's more like a hero rather than a supportive role like the mother.
• FF 13: This is strangely genuine. Vanille has a childlike innocence and runs from responsibility (it comes to bite her). Fang likes acting flirtatious. Lightning may seem as a no-nonsense warrior akin to Squall, but she's in fact very motherly. Her motivation is to save and protect her little sister, whom she has raised all alone. During the game, she becomes a parental figure of support to Hope, who has just lost his own mum.

edited 9th Jan '13 10:03:06 AM by lu127

I think FFVII is playing with the trope, but ultimately plays it straight, and should be mentioned. Leaving Yuffie aside, at a glance Tifa looks like the seductress and Aerith more wifely. However, digging deeper reveals the opposite, since Tifa is very wifely and reliable, and Aerith more flirty. The plot also highlights the latter interpretation, since Tifa is seen taking care of people, while with Aerith, aside from her heritage, does put some focus on her previous boyfriend, which suggests which role she fills.

I also think Aria The Scarlet Ammo is correct. Aria is the childish of them, Shirayuki is a Yamato Nadeshiko, and Riko is definitely a seductress.

Edit:

I also pulled the Nanoha example. Signum is just not a seductress. She may look like it, but that's not the trope. She's a warrior thorough.

• The Wolkenritter in the second season of Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha: Signum is the strong seductress (to the audience, anyway), Shamal is the wife and Vita is the child — though this is somewhat loose in that Vita's attitude is very much the Protector, and Shamal is only cast as the wife because her speciality is her Healing Hands.

edited 9th Jan '13 12:37:21 PM by AnotherDuck

Are the redirects hurting this trope? Sweet, Smart, and Hot doesn't seem to capture the spirit of the trope.

edited 9th Jan '13 11:33:35 AM by lu127

^ I do not know how I would tell, since they do not have any wicks.

Re: Final Fantasy 7 - Aerith is flirty: and she plays the Seductress to Tifa's Wife in regards to her relationship with Cloud; what with Tifa being the girl-next-door with a crush, the sweet stable influance, and Aerith being the new and interesting girl who pops outta nowhere and has Cloud totally infatuated. I cannot see Aerith as an archetypal seductress, though, she is filling too many other roles. I would definately like to hear some more opinions on it.

@32 - The way you talk about Unfortunate Implications makes it sound like you're talking about The Hecate Sisters. I think the sisters are actually worse because this can easily exist in a Lady Land (infertile and lesbian) but The Hecate Sisters are about having youth and beauty to gain pregnancy only to lose said youth and beauty. I wonder what Anita Sarkeesian of the web video Feminist Frequency would say about these tropes.

@33 - By the way you're describing it, FF 13 is a bad example. If she's a no-nonsense warrior and parental figure she's a Mama Bear but not an ideal wife. There is some overlap in how an ideal wife and mother can both be domestic but being fiercely maternal isn't the wife.

@ 34 - Please stop using the word motherly. This role isn't about protecting anyone, it's about being an equal and life partner.

edited 9th Jan '13 12:01:59 PM by lexicon

I think it would be better to cut those. They're not in use anyway.

That's not how I was using the word.

edited 9th Jan '13 12:38:28 PM by AnotherDuck

@ 37, They both have their implications. A lot of the female only power trios do (maybe all of them?). This one is more specific to providing a dude with the only 3 kinds of ladies he could ever want to frick, while the Hecate Sisters is more like the only 3 roles a woman can have/ the three life stages women go through (and of course all women begin as maidens, become mothers, then age into crones). I suspect the Hecate Sisters was largly borne by defining women by their familer relationship with adult men, as well (maturing daughter, wife, aged-mother).

This trope dose not automatically mean a work is mysgynist or anything, but those are its roots.

edited 9th Jan '13 12:11:33 PM by willthiswork

Sounds like Aerith and Tifa in FF 7 are Betty and Veronica: the sweet, stable, boring one and the exiting, exotic, and intriguing one.

edited 9th Jan '13 1:28:46 PM by Madrugada

@ 31 Madrugada - I like how you phrase that. I think it should go on the page it's self. It's missing the child though. Innocent is obviously the most important part but she's also cute, fun, and girly. If she's too shy for anyone to tell how feminine she is she shouldn't count.

Are the tropes incompatible? Betty and Veronica is specifically about love triangles. Are The Three Faces of Eve specifically about love "squares"?

I'm sorry, what I was saying is that I don't think Tifa and Aerith are part of a Three Faces of Eve ensemble at all. It sounds to me like they're the two female components of a Betty and Veronica instead (with Cloud(?) being the male member).

Three Faces of Eve doesn't have to be a Love Polyhedra at all. It usually isn't, in fact.

edited 9th Jan '13 9:38:15 PM by Madrugada

^ Funnily enough, I was browsing the edit requests thread yesterday and someone wanted to add that trope to FF 7's page. The mods who considered it decided against it because s/he did not provide any context :3

It's good that we've cut out a lot, but most of the examples still have no context or bad context. Before axing away I'd like to know that we're going to have a good number of examples still there.

Me too, but I have gone over everything I am familer with. I will continue to try and appeal to the disscussion pages on various works, but other than that I am not sure what do to get people in here and providing context.

Oh, and in regards to FF 13, if someone could propose a write-up of what that entry would look like I would appreciate it; that would help me better judge weither or not it is really a fit. In particular it looks like we need more evidence that Lightning is actually a wife type and not just motherly.

ETA: Oh hey, looks like the works page for Vandread actually had some context on it. The wife part looks a bit weak though, what do you guys think?

The three main girls, the pilots of the Dreads, are a variation on The Three Faces of Eve principle, with a military twist:

• Dita Liebely, a child-like, bubbly Genki Girl, who's obsessed with aliens. She calls Hibiki "Uchuujin-san" ("Mister Alien" in the English dub). She can't cook too well, but then, Hibiki was raised on synthetic food pellets.
• Meia Gisborn, The Stoic leader of the Dread squadron, is a consummate fighter pilot and professional officer. She acts as a mother figure, despite her lack of domesticity
• Jura Basil Elden, the vain, voluptuous and self-absorbed squadron sub-commander. She has a lover, Barnette Orangello, who's exasperated at Jura's attention towards Hibiki.

edited 10th Jan '13 11:42:47 AM by willthiswork

I say anything action should go unless the 'wife' is a very graceful fighter and doing the fighting alongside her man. Otherwise it completely contradicts that she's the calmer aspect and someone around whom one could build a home life. The grace and partnership is the only way to maintain the wife-like stability.

So this got pulled off School Rumble. I guess I can give some context.

• The Three Faces of Eve: Tenma, Yakumo, Eri = maiden, wife, seductress
  • The women who actually show interest in Harima: Yakumo=child Eri=wife and Tae=seductress

Tenma is very much the child, being The Ditz and a Genki Girl. Yakumo is almost always described in-universe as someone who would make a good wife, so she's obvious too. Eri might not count for the seductress, though; while she is Miss Fanservice and aggressive in her pursuit of her love interest (when she pursuing him, anyway), she's definitely not sexually experienced (well, she understands the concept more than the other two, but that's not saying much), and she's a spoiled rich girl so she's not too good at being independent either.

The second set has Yakumo and Eri switched: Yakumo is still the wife, and Eri can be quite naive at times, but calling her the child is a bit iffy. Tae definitely counts for seductress, though; she's introduced inviting Harima back to her apartment and propositioning him.

edited 10th Jan '13 1:05:20 PM by Discar

Just removed Five Man Band from Street Sharks and Extreme Dinosaurs, neither of which had Chicks in their four-man teams, one of which had various Guest Star Party Members as "sixth rangers".

There is another Five-Man Band thread here, but I wouldn't mind lumping all of it in the same thread.