Is this an example?

I am definitely going to draw a line here. My first idea was to say that if the protagonists were in on it, he is no longer the big bad. I'll go with that if you want.

Note that if the faux villain is our viewpoint character, it is an entirely different sort of story, so he is not a big bad of that one. (except in universe)

I think you are right in correctly identifying who the Greater Scope Villains are. And they are pretty clear cut as being the GSV, no matter what.

I would like to point out that in the trope description for Big Bad, it explicitly mentions a case where the Big Bad has no intentions at all.

In Need for Speed (2015), the main racing crew consists of Spike and Manu (male) and Amy and Robyn (female), and since the player character is a Featureless Protagonist, would it still count as a Gender-Equal Ensemble?

edited 31st May '16 10:38:31 AM by Josef5678

Is the Player Character ever referred to by gendered pronouns (e.g. "he" or "she"), or is there any other way to infer a canon gender?

If not, then I'd say it counts.

ahem, I gonna ask again if Biggs and Wedge in Final Fantasy VI counts for Ironic Name?

From what I can tell, Ironic Name seems to be pretty broadly applicable, so that particular case sounds like an example.

I was under the impression that Ironic Name was when Meaningful Name was flipped on its head. I'd say them being villains is more along the lines of normal Irony.

edited 31st May '16 5:42:57 PM by Karxrida

They're not really villains as much as soldiers who happen to be on the villains' side, although that's more noticeable in later games. Which side they're on is far less notable than what they're named in the first place. I think calling their names ironic is reaching for it, since by that token you can pull anything about a namesake that happens to be contrary to the character in question, and call it ironic.

Can Loved I Not Honor More apply to family obligations rather than love interests? In My Little Pony: Fi M, "Brotherhood Social" Applejack and Rarity are being sent on an important mission to help others in the name of friendship, but in doing so will miss the Sisterhood Social they were planning on doing with their younger sisters. They don't like it but go anyway.

Nope, shoehorning. Loved I Not Honour More is explicitly about love life.

Me again! I posted the edits I have in mind on the appropriate forum three days ago, with a few changes, but I haven't gotten any feedback. And I have a feeling it will be a long time before I can ever get feedback. So I think I'm just going to apply the edits and hope they work enough that they don't get deleted.

Before I do that though, I do want to make sure it would be alright to put Sole Survivor in the character page for a character. In-Universe the character isn't the "sole survivor" of anything but in a manner of speaking (that is, looking at it from a Meta-perspective) the character is the only one of a certain archetype to remain in the medium while all other characters of that archetype were removed for legal and mandating reasons.

Sorry if the relevant threads were empty. That usually only happens if the related fandom is small.

And there is no precedent for troping normally in universe tropes out of universe. So I think you cannot do that.

It's alright! Not your fault the forum had become effectively dead.

Understood! I just thought it would be an interesting/funny thing to include. Thank you for your input

Can Accent Upon The Wrong Syllable apply if the pronouncation is still technically correct, albeit extremely archaic?

I would say if it is extremely out of place, like if someone from that actual era said it then no. If someone modern and did not have any ties to that era then yes.

My post seemed to have gotten ignored.

I didn't ignore your example. I talked about the pokemon case. I couldn't find the ship examples, but if a ship were named after a place, it would not be an example.

In The Dresden Files twice when Sigrun Gard has flown a helo into combat, she plays, appropriately, Ride of the Valkyries. Would this qualify for a Lemotif in book form, or maybe just Battle Theme Music?

Given that she is a literal Valkyrie, you'd think so. But no. What she is actually doing is referencing this one famous scene from Apocalypse Now.

Okay. That makes sense.

So Shout-Out would be the appropriate trope.

So this just got added to Meaningful Release Date:

• In the case of Neon Genesis Evangelion, there are several examples, that might be incidental but in that case it’s a freaky coincidence:
  • Episode 1 aired on Oct. 4, 1995, which happened to be Yom Kippur, the Jewish day on which Jews repent their sins en masse, often by fasting and later sacrificing a chicken (whose body is given as food to the poor after it’s slain) or money to take the sin onto themselves; note that in ancient times, similar sacrifices were made at the Temple of Israel.
  • Episode 2, in which the timid Shinji comes to his new home, aired on Oct. 11, 1995 the third day of Sukkot, when the ushpiz of the day is the timid Jacob, who stands for Tif'éret, the balance between the Divine drive to release Grace (Khésed) and restrict this Grace and unleash wrath and judgement (Gvurá).
  • Episode 8, in which Fiery Redhead Asuka is introduced, aired on Nov. 22, 1995, on the week of Parashàt Toldót, in which Fiery Redhead Esau and his twin brother Jacob are born. Later on they are said to be Isaac’s and Rebecca’s favourites, respectively, so Rebecca helps Jacob cheat Esau out of his birthright, making Esau declare he will kill Jacob for it. The Biblical Sibling Rivalry has a lot of Foreshadowing regarding Asuka’s hostility towards Shinji (in particular after his sync rates exceed hers), and also relates to why Shinji and Asuka had such issues with their father and mother, respectively.
  • In ep. 19, Shinji reacts violently to a moral outrage and leaves his position, only to be convinced to return by an older, more experienced man to go back. This, along with his reluctance to accept his role, might be an analogy to the story of Moses, the most humble person in the world (Numbers 12:3), who struck to death an Egyptian abusing a slave (Exodus 2:14-2), ran off, and took refuge with Jethro before going back and doing what he needed to. This might also Foreshadow how he effectively ‘parts’ the Red Sea in The End of Evangelion.
  • In ep. 21, Gendou appears with a child version of his wife. This is disturbingly reminiscent of Isaac’s and his wife Rebecca’s marriage, when, according to Rashi, the former was 40 and the latter was THREE.^note Note that Jewish commentators have been thoroughly Squicked by the notion, to say the least, and have tried to find ways to explain why it was not exactly so, and really tone down the Squick factor.
  • Ep. 23, in which Rei sacrifices herself to stop Armisael, is replaced by her lookalike Rei III, and Shinji can’t bring himself to cry, aired on Purim, a holiday commemorating how Queen Esther almost pulled a Heroic Sacrifice to save her people, is commemorated by wearing disguises, and mourning is forbidden.
  • The End of Evangelion was released on July 19th, 1997, on the week of Parashàt Balák, in which a man’s donkey disobeys his orders and chastises him. And... ‘I’m not your puppet.’ Gendou, standing before an angel in the final stages of mankind’s redemption, tries to keep Instrumentality to himself, but at last, Rei rejects Gendou when she hears Shinji scream in terror; continuing from the Isaac & Rebecca analogy above, Gendou, who stands for Isaac, who stands for Gvura, decides to keep the Devine Grace to himself, but is foiled when Rei unleashes her Mama Bear instincts to defend her son.
  • At the end of the film, Lilith, who is also the progenitor of all of humanity (including Gendou), tries to bring Instrumentality to everyone as a way to end their sorrow of misunderstanding one another, but Shinji rejects it. Continuing the Shinji-Jacob-Tif'eret and Gendou-Isaac-Gvura interpretation, Lilith is Abraham-Khesed, and Shinji, representing the balance between the other two, reins them both in. This fits in perfectly with the message given in the original ending (or at least one of the main ones): ultimately you need to find a balance between extreme Khesed (i.e. altruism to the point of being an Extreme Doormat) and extreme Gvura (i.e. reserving one’s altruism to the point of Lack of Empathy and It's All About Me).
  • Then, to complete the Book Ends with the Yom Kippur episode, in the final scene of End of Evangelion, everyone has to cross the Sea of LCL, which appears red◊ in the poster and in the final scene of the film◊, to finally free themselves from emotional bondage. Finally, there are crucified figured in the background, mirroring the crucifixion of Jesus as sacrifice for humanity’s sins, symbolising that the sacrifice for redemption is complete, and the (somewhat twisted) rainbow, mirroring the one after the Deluge and the new laws given thereafter, heralds the good news of a new creation (or a Neon Genesis Evangelion). It won’t be easy, but mankind is on its way to redemption.

While it's interesting, it's a Wall of Text and I'm preeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetty sure that it's mostly straight up fan analysis and just not this trope. Hell, the last entries don't even discuss the dates... it seems like shoehorning for the sake of adding their own interpretation. And a lot of the connections are incredibly tenuous.

edited 6th Jun '16 9:58:51 AM by Larkmarn

Kill that with fire. I am getting a major numerology vibe from that series of tenuous at best, mix of Zero Context Examples and stuff that doesn't even list a date at worst examples.

I don't see anything about the entry that doesn't sound like grabbing for straws to make the shoe fit. The connections are tenuous at best. Or poorly explained, I suppose, but if you can't explain it properly, is it really an example?

Can I get opinions on this entry in DeaderThanDisco.Video Games?

• Modern military shooters were huge after the breakthrough smash of Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare and ruled over most of The Seventh Generation Of Console Video Games. largely because they were a place where most people would socially interact with each other. But just before the eighth generation hit, they started to suffer a decline because the market that used to play those games has moved away from it with the releases of smartphones and tablets (which allow for more social interaction). The massive oversaturation, unrelated games being saddled with their mechanics to try and Follow the Leader, heaps of Unfortunate Implications, and the release of more thoughtful and deconstructive shooters like Bioshock Infinite and Spec Ops: The Line, as well as the successes of recent old school-style shooters such as Wolfenstein: The New Order and Shadow Warrior (2013), also killed hopes that another audience would be attracted by them. The death of the Medal of Honor franchise with the failure of Warfighter, which helped codify most of the tropes that served as staples of the genre, was also a large loss. Even the two titans of the genre, Call of Duty and Battlefield, have begun to move away from the formula. It still exists but most would only be cult hits by modern standards.

I had previously deleted it as part of a massive culling of shoehorning / complaining in the Deader Than Disco example pages. User @hamza678 restored it, and to be fair to him, there is support for its restoration on the Discussion page, so it's not like he's edit-warring or going off on his own without consensus.

Here's the thing: I don't claim to be particularly plugged in to the FPS fandom. It's entirely possible that there's a big enough backlash against modern military shooters to qualify it for DTD status that I'm just not seeing from my limited perspective. And if that turns out to be the case, I'm happy to defer to more-informed opinions than my own.

But the way the example is written, it reads less as "this thing that used to be incredibly popular has now suffered near-universal backlash such that even the early entries from when it was still popular are reviled" and more as "the audience and industry moved on to other things."

I'm of a mind that, at minimum, it needs a rewrite to more clearly establish it as a legit example.

Thoughts?

1. Every Deader Than Disco page needs to be locked because it attracts shoehorns, and a dedicated cleanup thead should be created (if one does not already exist).
2. Do they still sell decently? If yes, delete the example.

edited 6th Jun '16 11:52:12 AM by Karxrida

Yeah, the "that might be incidental but in that case it’s a freaky coincidence" is not a good sign.

But yeah, most of them either say "this is why the date is important. I'm not going to say what the date has to do with the episode, but it's an important date," "this event from the show mirrors Judaism. The date is incidental," or "there's a super vague connection to the date and the event."

I'm one of those on the discussion page that agrees. They don't really sell... at all, because all the publishers have moved on. To the point that a series called freaking Battlefield changed itself to a cops vs. robbers theme. There's massive backlash in the gaming community as a whole against the Modern Military Shooter only appealing to the Mountain Dew drinking Frat Bro casual, and even they've moved on meaning the only feelings for them left is the disdain from the critics.

Could use a rewrite, though.

edited 6th Jun '16 11:55:42 AM by Larkmarn