Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Just to clarify I removed the examples from the page, and added the links to the subpages. I also replaced the The Gravdigger example from Bones with a rewrite and removed the zero context Wild Palms examples.

Animal Farm mentions the positive qualities Stalin had in Real Life...WHAT positive qualities?

EDIT: I added Roger to the Sandbox.

EDIT 2: I added the CS Iverse and Whedonverse Sandboxes to my TV Sandbox.

EDIT 3: Alright, issues from A-C

• Hassam from CHERUB Series seems like a colossal douchebag, but he didn't INTENTIONALLY cause the plane crash, did he? He doesn't seem quite as bad as Aramov.
• The YMMV page for Chung Kuo has:
  ** Wang Yu-Lai is also a complete motherfucker and member of the Chinese version of the KGB/Gestapo, which uses Cold-Blooded Torture without any hesitation. Wang is very sad, that he doesn't get to commit wholesale genocide against the population of the conquered territories (basically kill anyone, who isn't Chinese) and likes to rape prisoners and forces their husbands or lovers to watch. He also very, very enjoys executing prisoners.
• Circle of Magic has more than what's on the CM page.
• Conan the Barbarian has Ra-Sidh and Thoth-Amon.
• What's Broud's problem?

Other than that, done. Fighteer, any work on those Tad Williams rewrites?

edited 15th Feb '14 1:38:03 PM by ACW

Also for you sandbox, I think I should move the Page Quote and Torchwood examples to the Doctor Who page. This should be a suitable substitute.

—>Harmon Rabb: And for that, you beat her to death? —>Charlie Lynch: ''You have a problem with that?' —>-JAG

EDIT: I just swapped them out.

edited 15th Feb '14 2:20:46 PM by randomtroper89

Well... Stalin did in a way defeat the Nazis...he also helped to industrialize Mother Russia, and he made its government one of the most productive governments the world had ever seen (at that time).

edited 15th Feb '14 1:25:39 PM by AustinDR

For Hassam...if you sell bad parts for aircrafts you're definitely culpable for what happens. And then you keep doing it?

Wang Yu-Lai sounds like a keep

Change Circle of Magic to conform with the main Lit page. Conan's YMMV also covers multiple media, which'd include the comics Ra Sidh and Thoth Amon.

Done and done.

@ACW

Stalin was nice to his adopted son (who was the son of an old friend), may have loved one of his wives, and seems to have, at some point, genuinely believed in the revolution (though that died once he got power). He was also (probably) a clinical paranoid which goes a long way to explaining why he did what he did.

Speaking of Doctor Who, there a few examples I need to discuss.

• Mrs Gillyflower from "The Crimson Horror" makes an attempt to wipe out all humanity so she and her 'perfect' chosen people can create a new Eden. She refuses a place for her own daughter Ada because Ada is blind and doesn't fit with Mrs. Gillyflower's version of perfection, knowing this condemns her daughter to death. The kicker to this is she blinded Ada herself by experimenting on her with deadly poison to prolong her own life, revealing her as nothing more than a nasty hypocrite and Smug Snake who was willing to let everyone on earth die so she could live out her fantasies of perfection.
  • This is softened somewhat when Mrs. Gillyflower begs her daughter for forgiveness while on the cusp of death. When her daughter refuses, Gillyflower is actually proud of her hatred, suggesting that even she knew just how despicable she had become. This is right before her parasite keeping her alive abandons her and is crushed flat by Ada's cane, hinting its responsible for most of Mr.s Gillyflower's behavior.

Being proud of her daughter hatred of her is hardly a redeeming quality, in fact I would argue the opposite. If the part about the parasite is true, cut her, otherwise keep.

The Sarah Jane Adventures

• John Harrison bought extraterrestrial slaves whom he keeps in line with a Cold-Blooded Torture collar, and uses a dead man's hologram. Plans to Mind Rape everyone in the world who owns a television, so that they will buy up his second-rate computers.
• The Nightmare Man. A Joker lookalike who seeks to trap everyone in their own worst nightmares.

I think these were determined to be cuts. Am I right?

edited 15th Feb '14 5:09:05 PM by randomtroper89

Cut the Sarah Jane ones but keep Gillyflower I think.

These aren't the best written entries, but at least they explain things.

The Legend of Spyro: A New Dawn

• Complete Monster: The Warden, Empress Tyrania's Dragon. The guy is a sadistic prison master who rules over the Gargoyle slave mines. Unlike the rest of the Gargoyles, he's fully sentient and able to make his own choices. He's got a magic collar that causes anyone afflicted with a curse to experience horrible agony from so much as touching him or attacking him indirectly. He gleefully uses this to force the slaves to work themselves half to death and torture them For the Evulz. He's seen torturing a poor Cheetah just to unwind after his earlier encounter with Tyrania left him furious, outright saying the only thing the Cheetah did wrong was because the Warden said he did something wrong. Tyrania's attack on the Dragon Realms was also his idea to begin with. This all comes back to bite him, though, because the slaves brutally attack him once the curse is broken thanks to Sparx.
  • Empress Tyrania. Big time. She carried out three genocides, including her own species, just to make herself be worshipped as a god. She keeps a torture chamber with a window so she can watch and regularally blows up her own worshippers for kicks. She keeps slaves and made the slave master her sadistic Dragon just to make sure they're miserable as physically possible. She then invades the Dragon Realms, completely intent with the idea she'll need to perform a genocide or two to weed out those no good for slave labor, in fact, she relishes it! When the group finally confronts her, she taunts them over this and kills Ember's father in a slow and sadistic manner and enjoys every second of it. She's so evil that Kage believes that even absorbing her energy could have dire consequences. Ironically, her sadism leads to her demise, as she perposefully drew the battle out as long as she could just to enjoy their suffering, which allowed them to discover her weakness. Reader response universally dub her a monster. She was intentionally made an utterly irredeemable Complete Monster to be a Foil for the sympathetic Deadlock.

The Last Spartan

• Complete Monster: As if Saleon weren't evil enough in canon, he also tested Flood infection forms on live subjects, even showing Garrus, Chief, and The Arbiter video footage of one of his subjects getting infected. He's so bad that he prompts Garrus' Start of Darkness when Garrus inflicts some nasty Pay Evil unto Evil Laser-Guided Karma on him.

The Spyro examples look pretty good. Still, for Tyrania, I would drop or at least rework the last two sentences of her entry since it doesn't necessarily blend well with an otherwise solid entry. I would also drop the exaggeration such as exclamation marks and excessive italics. Entries should seriously and concisely explain what the villain has done to qualify as a CM.

Saleon needs some work though. See if you can find the guy who wrote up the original entry and have him explain the villain's crimes and factors within The Last Spartan. This will make reworking the entry a bit easier.

edited 15th Feb '14 7:19:04 PM by sanfranman91

Not that I don't support a rewrite, but doesn't it say Saleon's actions? They sound similar to his actions in the game.

I PM'd the troper anyway.

Also, found some weird entries on The Lion King Adventures:

• Complete Monster: Where do we even begin? To make a list there's:
  • Hago, who has always been trying to destroy the cubs and take over the Pride Lands. In addition, he tortured Nala on several occasions, even after realizing that she was his daughter.
  • Scar, who once tried to get Simba and Nala to hate each other just because he was bored. This was probably the least of his crimes, considering he had drawings on a cave wall of Simba and Nala being killed in gruesome ways, as well as raping a teen lioness, an act even Hago found disturbing. When he later came back to life, Scar turned on those who resurrected him.
  • Timon and Pumbaa, of all characters, were this trope in the series as well. They sucked the life-forces of cubs for 200 years, one for each. That makes 400 cubs!
  • The Royal Reaper, who only wants to kill Simba, and tortures Nala in horrible ways.
  • Usaliti, who tried to force Tama to marry him and caused all but three residents of the Pride Lands to be sucked into a dark void.
  • Froggy, who seemed to be only days away from getting Simba to stop adventuring forever and become evil.
  • Ahadi, who created the Royal Challenge law for his own entertainment, created Scar, and consorted with both Hago and Death.
  • Maana, who abuses Simba and forces him to dig holes nonstop so he can find an Uchoyo Diamond.
  • Shocker, who wouldn't stop until he dies to get rid of those cubs and since he's immortal...
  • The Inque and Vimelea both aliens who possess a host and don't get out until the host is killed.
  • Death. He almost managed to kill thirteen lions. Not to mention he already had killed some other characters from Disney.
  • Aibu, who started off as a good cub, later went insane and tried to become the most powerful cub in the world, and recruited a pair of cubs as lackeys after killing their parents.
  • Believe it or not, Simba actually started to go down this path until the end of Series Five.
  • And then there's the Writer, who wanted to kill the only characters to live up until his story. And in a way succeeded. Not to mention he created every other character on this list and was the reason for every horrible event.

WTF?!

edited 15th Feb '14 7:35:19 PM by TVRulezAgain

Holy shit. Timon and Pumbaa? And what's with that last entry?

edited 15th Feb '14 7:51:00 PM by Camberf

@ 21874 You're right. Still looks too sloppy and disorganized to fit the cleanup thread's standards though.

@ 21875 Wow, just... WOW. I can't possibly believe there are that many CMs within ONE FANFIC. And lots of the entries don't provide nearly enough context to explain if they pass the heinous standard. In fact, the entries don't seem to fall under one common heinousness standard. Can someone who has read The Lion King Adventures give a lowdown of its heinousness standard so we can cut a number of these candidates?

Well, here's the first paragraph on the main page description:

"The Lion King Adventures is a series of stories by author ThatPersonYouMightKnow, set in an alternate universe, chronicling Simba and Nala's childhood. The two cubs encounter friendship, romance, evil wizards, crazy psychopaths and just plain creepy creatures who are trying to constantly kill them."

edited 15th Feb '14 8:10:27 PM by TVRulezAgain

HOLY CRAP! TIMON AND PUMBAA AS COMPLETE MONSTERS?!

edited 15th Feb '14 8:33:54 PM by AustinDR

... And this is why we cannot have nice things.

I dunno, the fic could be good, but we oughta just cut the entry entirely. The Spyro one can be reworked a bit.

I was thinking that perhaps Scar (from The Lion King) could qualify.

Originally I was opposed to him counting due to a combination of not wanting to open the door to more "kid's work villains", and also because I think he's somewhat Unintentionally Sympathetic, being implied to have been passed over for the "crown" because of physical weakness.

However, here's my thoughts on why he might count:

• As he tells his hyena minions, killing Simba was a direct part of his plan- One thing that makes this noteworthy is that the film is in part inspired by Hamlet, and in that play, Scar's equivalent, King Claudius, only tries to have Hamlet killed after he becomes too much of a liability- and in any event, Hamlet was an adult and Simba was a child. Basically, while trying to kill the hero is often "standard villainy", this was a situation where Scar could have achieved his goal simply by killing his brother, but went out of his way to try to kill his young nephew.
• Also, it's a pretty big dick move that when he kills Muffasah but fails to kills Simba, he gets Simba out of the way but making Simba believe himself responsible for his father's death. Note that Simba liked/trusted Scar.
• Kind of related to my first bullet, as I like to note, Scar is a lot more similar to Shakespeare's Richard III (who note, kills his young nephews) than he is to King Claudius, and we have determined Richard to qualify- like Scar, the guy has a slight excuse of being an "ugly duckling", but at the end of the day, people mostly seem to hate him for being an evil bastard, and he was well-treated by the family members who he callously betrayed. Both characters are also initially quite charming in a way that appeals to the audience, but lose that once they gain power and instead become The Caligula.
• His relationship with the hyenas is a pretty big kick the dog all around. He enlists them as his shock troops/enforcers, but makes it clear that while he promises them a better life, he really intends to just give them whatever scraps are left over once he's gotten what he wants- he also pretty cravenly tries to blame everything on them when cornered.
• I don't know if it could count, since it didn't really make it into the film (did it make it into the theatrical adaptation?), but Scar was intended to have tried to coerce Nallah into "marrying" him and had some creepy lines about her being "all grown up"- there is some implication of him claiming the lionesses when he makes himself king.

edited 15th Feb '14 9:32:04 PM by Hodor

I was actually considering after this...while we voted on Scar previously...could he count in the musical adaptation? It adds more crimes, like him snapping and becoming The Caligula while also trying to rape Nala.

For me, the big points about Scar were always this:

When he tries to have Simba killed, he knows he's sending Nala, an innocent little girl, right into the Hyenas' jaws. He later comments he 'gift wrapped' the cubs for the trio and they couldn't even dispose of 'them' properly. So killing Nala was definitely part of the plan.

Killing Mufasa may be standard villain behavior. How he convinced Simba it was his fault and then forced him to run away before siccing the Hyena trio on him anyways is over and above.

Then there's him physically abusing Mufasa's widow and condemning every lion to death over petty spite and pride. When she says they'll die if they remain behind in the Pridelands, Scar just says "so be it" and that he's the King so he can do whatever he wants. and with Simba, it's not enough to just kill him. He has to drive in the truth about Mufasa's first.

That's why I see him as a CM, personally.

edited 15th Feb '14 9:39:44 PM by Lightysnake

I think the musical adaptation is even less likely to qualify because during "The Madness of King Scar" his murder of Mufasa comes back to haunt him.

I've never seen the musical- could you provide some lyrics?

The reason I wonder is that in a similar fashion, Richard III ends up haunted by all of the murders that he's done, but it's more in terms of "I've really screwed things up for myself" than guilt (contrast Macbeth or again, King Claudius).

edited 15th Feb '14 9:46:51 PM by Hodor

Scar: Even in death, his shadow looms over me. There he is! No! There he is! And there! Zazu: Calm yourself, Sire, or you'll get another one of your splitting headaches! Scar: I am perfectly fine!

Thanks. Hmm, tough call- I mean it isn't that far removed from how Macbeth is affected, but it sounds more like Scar is going nuts and a symptom of that insanity is being haunted by his crimes- and the fact that he's The Resenter toward his older brother.

edited 15th Feb '14 9:54:13 PM by Hodor