Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

to Yara.

to Yara

Yeah let Scraggle figure out what's going on and let's chill on the need to change character pages until we've got this verified.

I actually remember most of the Zelda mangas, and I'd say Manga!Veran is only sadistic to Link and doesn't have the scale of poisoning the ocean, erupting a volcano, etcetera. So I'd say she comparatively fails the Heinous Standard.

As for other potential qualifiers? Vaati has been given more characterization in the manga but appears to lack moral agency, don't quote me on that. I'd like Fried to research Vaati in TMC but I think his crimes regardless are exactly the same as in the games, which, aside from his pedophilia with the child Zelda in Four Swords, is too generic.

Zant might qualify from what I've read of the TP manga and I'm not sure about Yuga or Demise/Ghirahim from LBW manga, yes it exists, and Skyward Sword manga as those are the few mangas I haven't read.

Also the Nightmares for Link's Awakening's manga don't count due to a Hive Mind thing. As cool and mature as the Enix manga is.

Edited by Klavice on Apr 17th 2020 at 7:05:14 AM

Alright, so remember when I said than Jean from Geneshaft did not qualify? Well, after taking with 43... I have decided that he is worth bringing up.

What's the work?

Geneshaft is... wait, I already did this part!

Here is my Sneak EP, look there for details on the setting. Me am lazy.

Who is Jean Gedoux? What does he do?

He is the antagonist of episode 9 and 10. So, after the government discovers Sneak's treachery (again, big surprise there), they decide that all the crew members of the Shaft must be in on it. So they send a fleet of their own, the ISEA fleet, to arrest them, headed by General Natalie. She happens to be friends with the Shaft captain, who's name violates the One Mario Limit. So Mario and Natalie have a nice talk and all is going well.

Then Jean shows up. He is also on the ship with the others and is a government official himself... but to call him the embodiment of government corruption is understating it. This dude is such a Psychopathic Manchild that one wonders how the hell he got into a military position in the first place. He is introduced beating his female Register (basically a woman who follows him around and does whatever he says). So Jean is supposed to help capture them. Thing is, Jean and Mario go way back. And Jean, despite being at the top of his class? Was Always Second Best to Mario.

So, deciding now would be the perfect time to take his revenge, Jean, after beating his Register some more, orders his Register to hack into the main computer and fire a cannon at the Shaft. When the Register points out that he is violating orders, he beats her again until she complies. Because they are all near Jupiter and its heavy gravity, the blast instead winds up taking out the majority of the ISEA fleet, including Natalie. Jean gets furious at his Register, blaming her when he was the one who violated his orders, beats her up some more, then decides that this is perfectly okay because now he is in control of the fleet. He sends a message to Mario and gloats about how he killed Mario's friend and untold amounts of people, then tells him that Jean is gonna hunt them all down. Did I mention he beats his Register? He loves to beat his Register.

Jean tries to kill the crew, eventually spurring Mario to go and face Jean himself. Jean shoots Mario and gloats some more about how he will finally kill him. Mario manages to turn the tides by pinning Jean and pulling out a detonator, intending to take them both, to which Jean begins pathetically begging for his life... before daring Mario to do it. He does, and they both die.

Heinousness?

A concern I brought up was how little he does compared to Sneak. However, keep in mind that while Sneak destroyed entire cities, he did so with the help of a powerful AI that is literally a moon. Jean, despite being a government/military agent, does not have that kind of power. Despite this? He brutally beats his subordinate regularly, recklessly gets more than half a fleet full of people killed and gloats about it, and then goes against his government orders to capture the heroes in favor of killing them all, just to show up one guy.

And in the end, Jean IS a Villain of the Week, unlike Big Bad Sneak, so of course he has less resources.

Mitigating Qualities?

Another concern was that, in the end, he does almost seem to have a bonding moment with Mario, looking back on their past and even pulling his hand to Mario... and then ruins it by smiling evilly and daring Mario to press the bomb and kill them both. According to 43, who saw the scene, this reads more like a Blood Knight moment. Even before that, he seemingly admits he was wrong, but in context he is clearly just begging for his life and does not actually think he is wrong.

Case you wanna see for yourself, here is the episode where it happens (skip to 16:00-18:40).

Verdict?

43 says he keeps. What about you all?

Edited by MasterN on Apr 17th 2020 at 7:31:54 AM

As N showed me his death scene, I lean yeah like he said. There's a touch of ambiguity, as he goes from begging for his life to suddenly being fine when Mario goes to kill them both with a detonator but his tone is that of a psycho happy to die a violent death more so than peacefully getting to go out with someone he cherished.

Can we get some votes on the effort posts that have been put up here, Klavice?

Edited by 43110 on Apr 17th 2020 at 10:40:17 AM

Also about the Zelda page, yes Zelda should get one. I think the only reason it didn't have one before was I think (again don't quote me on that) every villain was Hijacked by Ganon and Demise, so I think we saw every villain as inconsequential to Ganon. How wrong we were... Anyway, I like that Demise quote and the Ganondorf picture.

Also yes to Jean and Yara. Good work, N! As long as it's clearly a psycho wanting to die a gruesome death, I have no issues with Jean going up. Is there any examples from the SMT spinoff Catherine out of curiosity?

Edited by Klavice on Apr 17th 2020 at 7:41:28 AM

Sure to Jean.

Okay, so, one translation and read-through of a raw later (the relevant flashback was only a single chapter) and...the manga didn't really tell me anything I didn't already know on Orgonax. It just muddies the waters.

The character page got me incredibly worried we might have an agency issue with Orgonax...I'm not actually sure if that's the case, but I'm not really sure that it's not the case, either. The manga never once actually says Orgonax was corrupted or lost any semblance of agency when his heart was stolen. We have visual evidence of Orgonax in harmony with the other Eliatropes before the war, but that also goes double for all the other Mechasms, who don't quite have the same reason as Orgonax to all suddenly turn on the Eliatrope people in an "unremitting war."

The only concrete evidence we have for anything is "revenge." The manga spends far more time spieling on about Qilby's motivations than it does Orgonax—as was the case in both the cartoon, as Orgonax is functionally just an accessory to Qilby's backstory genocide except in Islands of Wakfu—so I'm not really sure what to say. If Orgonax was corrupted, there's no explanation as to why the rest of his race suddenly becomes just as murderous as he does, but we don't really have a good reason as to why Orgonax snaps from "peaceful" to "murderous" except possibly Disproportionate Retribution.

So...yeah. On the bright side, I did find the chapter with Mongrelamus, and he does get his. Not really much to add to the writeup, but I'll give him a touched-up one regardless of whatever the hell we're doing with Orgonax.

I'm not sure what to make of it, TBH

One thing I'd like to get cleared up, is it okay to effortpost someone from a game or Visual Novel if you yourself didn't play but watched a Let's Play?

That's... weird.

Yes, Klavice, that's fine. Can you please also contribute to this thread with issues? It would be very nice to hear more votes from you on effortposts and weighing in on issues were trying to resolve rather than just asking questions you've asked in the past.

Part of me wants to say leave Orgonax up

Edited by Lightysnake on Apr 17th 2020 at 7:47:07 AM

That.

to Jean

to Jean

After hearing Scraggle’s explanation I think that Orgonox can stay

Comes kinda close but I don't see anything outright invalidating him and we let Lordgenome stay on MB out of an assumption, put up Camus and reinstated Zanza out of the same one. I say keep.

So, writeups:

• Geneshaft has these two murderous military leaders:
  • Lord Sergei the 4th Sneak is the secret leader of the terrorists and the alien AI Oberon's partner. A man with perfect DNA who became a respected commander, Sneak secretly hates humanity for not being perfect like himself. Teaming up with Oberon and aiding it in destroying several cities full of people, Sneak aims to Kill All Humans and replace them with a "perfect" new race. To do this, he feigns loyalty to the government while leading the rebel terrorists with false promises of restoring the natural order for humans. Manipulating everyone around him to achieve his goal, Sneak abuses Beatrice, strings Mir Lotus along using her feelings for him, sends several other subordinates and terrorists to their deaths, and kills Remmy Levistrauss when she rebels against him after learning his true plans. Finally, he attempts to kill the Strain crew heroines, forcing Sophia Galgalim to sacrifice herself to stop him.
  • Captain Jean Gedoo/Gedoux is the psychotic antagonist of episodes 9 and 10. A top student who resented being always second best to Mario Musicanova, Jean boards the ISEA fleet sent to capture the Shaft crew with the intent on getting his revenge on Mario. He is introduced beating his Register and later ordering her to hack into the computer and destroy the Shaft, physically and verbally abusing her into compliance. After managing to get over half the fleet vaporized instead, including his boss- and Mario's friend- General Natalie, Jean blames his Register and beats her before deciding to make himself the new commander. Gloating to Mario about usurping Natalie, Jean engages his rival, shooting him, and takes Mario's Heroic Sacrifice to kill them both with glee at his hated foe dying with him.

Edited by MasterN on Apr 17th 2020 at 8:45:07 AM

Oh, and Klavice, no version of Vaati keeps from the manga either. He redeems himself in The Minish Cap manga, which you yourself could have researched and figured out from a single wiki search.

Edited by Scraggle on Apr 17th 2020 at 11:35:46 AM

Dagon, Mathers, Yara, Sergei, Jean, Onox and Nicholai

I just checked the YMMV page for both Danganronpa & Ultra Despair Girls and I just learned that the troper named Heavy Weapons Pie just brought back the CM status for Monaca Towa probably without our consent. Should we remove it again?

Edited by n3xus on Apr 17th 2020 at 2:40:56 PM

Yes

Maybe send a PM to the troper as well.

to Yara and Jean. I think Orgonax can stay, too.

To make up for Ranken being downvoted, I have another Batman candidate, this one from an Elseworlds comic, of a character that might surprise some.

What's the work?

Batman: Detective #27 is an Elseworlds comic that takes place primarily in the late 1930s. Bruce Wayne's backstory is the same, but he isn't Batman here, instead he is conscripted by an elder society of detectives and crimefighters that even people like Abraham Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt have been parts of, and his mission to stop an ancient conspiracy of scientists known as the "Knights of the Golden Circle", kick-started by a Confederate madman named Josiah Carr, who makes the Knights' catchphrase "Did you ever dance with the devil in the pale moonlight?"

Which brings us to the mastermind of the Knights in the present:

Who is Dr. Thomas Wayne? What has he done?

That's right, in this Elseworlds story, Bruce's father Thomas Wayne himself is the Big Bad.

Thomas joined the Knights due to his own greed and lust for power, becoming a mad fanatic to the cause in the process. Thomas used his considerable resources to help the Knights of the Golden Circle develop a plant-based hallucinogen called Datura (a kind of stand-in for Scarecrow's Fear Gas), and used Datura to subtly brainwash people like Hugo Strange and Jonathan Crane into being his Co-Dragons. Thomas also used a young Selina Kyle as a package carrier of Datura to locations around Gotham, uncaring that it was slowly making the girl insane.

When Thomas wanted to go into hiding to further develop the Knights of the Golden Circle's plans, he hired Joe Chill and Jack Napier to shoot himself and his wife in an alley, faking his death at the cost of his wife Martha's life. Thomas orders for his young son Bruce to be left alive solely so there is a witness to Thomas's "death", making it all the more believable to authorities.

Thomas developed Datura over the years and tested it on innocent people which lead to many deaths, and eventually orders Strange and Crane to test it during a Babe Ruth baseball game, hiding the chemical in a baseball so that when the swinger whacks it, it will release Datura into the stadium and cause the crowd of thousands of men, women and children to tear each other apart.

When Bruce stops that plan and tracks down Strange and Crane, Thomas stands by as Strange falls to his death, and then shoots Crane lethally when Crane tries to tell Bruce who their boss is. Thomas then reveals himself to Bruce and mocks him over all the pain he has caused him and the "hell" Bruce has experienced because of his parents' deaths. Thomas reveals that he is finishing the Knights of the Golden Circle's plan concocted by Carr decades ago, revolving around getting revenge for the defeat of the Confederates by destroying many Northerner cities, which Thomas plans to use Datura to do.

Thomas tries to kill Bruce, but when Bruce gets the upper hand, Thomas tries to drop the last of the Datura onto a conference held by the current president, Franklin D. Roosevelt, and throw the whole country into chaos by infecting the President with fear and paranoia. When Thomas is knocked off a ledge after being stopped by Bruce, he ends up committing suicide, letting go of the ledge and falling to his death instead of letting Bruce help him up, which ends the Knights of the Golden Circle for good.

Does Thomas have a Freudian Excuse or other mitigating features?

I don't think so, none that hold up. He became evil just because of his own greed before becoming committed to satisfying his ego by carrying out the Knights' plan to destroy cities of Northerners.

When he confronts Bruce at the end, he remarks that he doesn't want to "have" to kill his own flesh and blood, but that his work comes first and he will kill Bruce to accomplish it, but this doesn't seem to be redeeming, since Thomas is also happily taunting Bruce with a Hannibal Lecture during this time and tries to kill him without hesitation.

Bruce thinks that Thomas might have been driven to such pure evil by constant interaction with Datura, but not only does Thomas show no signs of it unlike Strange and Crane, and Thomas even mocks Bruce over trying to make excuses for him, saying that everything he did was his own choice. Bruce still doesn't believe him, but there's no basis to this except Bruce obviously trying to care for his dad some way.

Lastly, right before he commits suicide, Thomas says "Carpe Nox" to Bruce, which means "Seize the night." No explanation is offered for this, and Bruce even wonders to his friend and butler Alfred later if Thomas meant it as "a warning? Advice? One last punch line to challenge me?", but it's not redeeming no matter what it meant.

Is Thomas sufficiently heinous?

This is an Elseworlds, and Thomas is the Big Bad so he doesn't have to go up against other DC villains. And he definitely passes the heinous standard, killing many people and planning to drive tens of thousands to rip each other apart, as well as arranging his own wife's murder and leaving his young son alive only as a witness.

Strange and Crane both are nasty, but The Reveal that they're just Thomas's pawns and likely influenced at least partially by Datura takes them out.

Josiah Carr himself is a pure evil cackling maniac who devised the plan and Datura the start with, and arranged the murder of Abraham Lincoln, but I'm not sure he has enough crimes to count. That's something I'll have to think on.

Either way, Thomas definitely is the worst in the story.

Final Verdict?

to the first CM incarnation of Thomas Wayne.

Edited by AgeOfTropeEmpire on Apr 18th 2020 at 12:04:44 PM

Thomas

Yara

Thomas Wayne (I'd say that's weird, but given we've got CM incarnations of Mister Fantastic, Hulk and even blooming Spider-Man and Batman... Anyway, sounds like a good story).

As always more good EP's. I'm replaying Lego Batman 3 so I've got that EP in draft... I should probably stop adding to my to-do list at this point!