During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Sorry for putting off the writeup for so long. Anyway, here it is.
- Mist Man by RedNovaTyrant: The titular mist man is a malicious spirit on a several century-long killing spree with a grudge against the Mallory bloodline. Living off of the knowledge of his existence, he started out by killing farmers in a small town and visitors, driving Arthur Mallory to kill everyone in the town to prevent anyone from learning about him, and preventing his repeated suicide attempts. He continued to haunt the Mallory family for generations, smearing their name by killing people wherever they went. In the present day, he murdered Daniel Mallory's friends, leaving people to believe him to be the killings, eventually viciously massacring a hospital, including babies. At the end, it's strongly implied that he soon plans to continue his savage butcheries until there's nobody left to kill, driving Daniel to shoot himself out of guilt for perpetuating his massacre.
Edited by Stellarvore on Mar 24th 2020 at 4:20:13 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Irena Morales.
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
I'm gonna look into the Dark Survival thing, in the meantime I feel like we should wait til The Dark Revival game is released, its hinted Susie might appear in that.
@Miraculous
Did a quick amount of research, and it sounds like the book keeps Bendy in a state of Ambiguity, sadly.
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Goku Black
Oh by the way Wonder woman 84 has been moved to August.
I think barring netflix releases were probably not going to be getting any new films till really late in the year.....
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
The Draftsman of Doom
Easy Irena Morales.
Addendum: It sounds to me like Moloch warrants further discussion as to whether he fits.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Mar 24th 2020 at 8:14:47 AM
Feels good, don't it?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I second 43's concern.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Mehmed but for somewhat different reasons than others on this thread- on paper I actually do think there's a case that he crosses the heinous standard because the torture of his own soldiers is played as dark torture from what I remember and isn't just shown as typical harsh training, but the problem with him is, Dracula, the protagonist, kills more people and does more brutal things than he ever does, he's just played more sympathetically, so a villain can't be a CM when there's a strong case that the protagonist is worse than they are (see Ares and Zeus in God of War)
Edited by WaryHoglet on Mar 24th 2020 at 4:11:06 AM
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Irina.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
You’re back! How’ve you been?
Like I said earlier today I've just been busy with school and the hassle of everything being moved online, after this week I have 2 weeks off so I should be active in the thread again, thanks for asking
Edited by WaryHoglet on Mar 24th 2020 at 4:16:54 AM
to Irina
to Mehmed
Alright so I got a candidate from a show that I just finished watching. The show in question is called Babylon Berlin.
What’s The Work?
Babylon Berlin is a German neo-noir television series taking place in Berlin during the Weimar Republic starting in 1929. The show follows a police inspector named Gereon Rath and Charlotte Ritter a police clerk by day and flapper by night, who aspires to become a police officer. Together, they solve many mysteries, with one being investigating a series of murders on a film lot during season three, conducted by this man Ullrich.
Who Is He? What Has He Done?
Dr. Ullrich is a detailed oriented police analyst whose the first to discover who killed the first actress on the set. Rather than expose the murderers however he keeps the evidence to himself while using the evidence to blackmail to duo into conducting more murders on the set create a much of infamous story of a Serial Killer where Ullrich to pretend to solve to look like a hero.
With that the duo murders more women on Ullrich’s orders and eventually frames an innocent man, Walter Weintraub, for the murders, while Ullrich would then sweep in and arrest Walter for the crimes that he did not actually commit. However Gereon and Charlotte are not convinced that Walter is the murderer and continue to investigate, eventually learning that Ullrich is the true mastermind of the murders.
This leads to Ullrich inject them with insulin which would cause trouble to breath for both Gereon and Charlotte which would kill them slowly and painfully, while also murdering his own assistant when he also learns of Ullrich crimes. Ullrich also kidnaps the police commissioner, Ernst "Buddah" Gennat, ties a noose on him, and keeps him hanging on a stool, where he plans to kill him slowly and frame Gereon for the dead.
However, Gereon manages to save Charlotte and Ernst and attempts to arrest Ullrich. In one last attempt to frame Gereon for his crimes, Ullrich attempts to commit suicide using a special glove containing Gereon’s finger prints. However he is stopped by the police who overheard Ullrich proudly confessing to being the mastermind of the murders and arrest him for his crimes.
Freudian Excuse? Redeeming Qualities?
Okay so Ullrich admits his reasons to commit his crimes is because he felt that nobody in the police department appreciated nor respected him. That said this hardly comes across as sympathetic nor justifiable as Gereon, Charlotte and his assistant have all admired what he did and Ullrich is simply a narcissist feels the need that everyone should just worship Ullrich for doing the job that he was suppose to do and cares for no one but himself.
Heinousness?
Now then Babylon Berlin can get pretty dark for their crimes such as an extortion ring that blackmail politician of Berlin, Gereon’s partner Bruno Wolter revealing himself to be a nazi supporter in season 2, and Oberst Wendt arranging the maid to set a bomb in the home of his rival killing him and his daughter and having the maid executed to tie loose ends (I’d put Wendt on the wait-list since he’ll most likely appear in Season 4)
That said Ullrich doesn’t have the same resources than the above, yet still manages to stand out with how unique his crimes are. To summarize Ullrich has forced people to commit more murders to just spread panic throughout Berlin just so he a pretend to be the hero stopping is all just to feed his ego and shows no remorse for murdering his own assistant, injecting Gereon and Charlotte with insulin and framing innocent people for his crimes
Final Verdict?
I will leave it to you guys to decide
Edited by G-Editor on Mar 24th 2020 at 1:36:25 AM
Yes to Ullrich.
Yes to Ullrich
Messenger from another dimension.
Ullrich.
Edited by emperors on Mar 24th 2020 at 7:54:06 AM
Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Goku Black
Really bored at the moment. Might as well throw this one out. The anthology Neverland's Library is a cleection of standalone fantasy short stories by various acclaimed authors like tad willaims and Mercedes lackey among them.
From the short story "Redemption at Knife's End" by Tim Marquitz within it I give you an example.
Who is Korbitt?
A former knight for this desert world's empire, Korbitt eventually became a mercenary who dabbles in a dark trade: slavery. Korbitt preys on the weak and disenfranchised, kidnapping them and the forcing them to become either sex or manuel slaves, having bribed the sheriff into looking away. A rapist, murderer and all around thug, he terrorises his town into submission.
Anyway our Anti-Hero Gryll has been sent to save one of Korbitt's latest victims. The Xenius are an endangered race of pacifistic magic users who only number less then a hundred now with their numbers in constant threat of extinction meaning they are protected. Korbitt has kidnapped a young xenius girl named Vai away from her ward, planing to harness her powers. In the meantime though it's revealed he keeps her as his personal sex slave (Did I mention shes just a very young kid...), being kept in filthy conditions.
Anyway Gryll storms into his base of operations and takes out his goons, Korbitt though refuses to release her and threatens to slit her throat in front of Gryll if he doesn't surrender and come near him. Anyway Gryll comes closer and before korbitt tries to kill him, reveals his ace in the hole. Gryll's face which he know uncovers is covered with tatoos which when shown to someone flood them with his memories, driving them off, it unbalances Korbitt enough that Gryill is able to kill korbitt and leave his corpse to rot.
Mitigating factors ?
No not really hes a pathteic creep who doesnt even emote when his men die. And well one of his men says hes has a "special relationship" with Vai, in that he keeps her all to himself....thats just creepy , pedophilic lust and he has no problem with threathing her life.
Heinous standard?
Korbitt is a horffic rapist, murderer and creep. And well hes not going to win any wawards for worst villain we'e ever had. I think for a standalone short story of around 20 or so pages, the keeping a kid from a race he know's is dying and doesnt care and keeping her as a sex slave and raping her, plus trying to kill her when he wont get his way (Its not graphic but we see enough and theirs no ambigiouty to what hes doing). Along with the fact he's just a thug who runs the slave trade which hes built of weak and disenfranchised is enough to make him count.
Conclusion?
I'll leave it up to you guys.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
to Korbitt.
Goku Black
Ullrich
The Draftsman of Doom
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Ullrich and Korbitt.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Mongul, Vanderwhaal, Irena, Ullrich and Korbitt
Mehmed
to Dr. Ullrich and Korbitt.
to Irena, Ulrich and Korbitt
Just an fyi, I'll be creating a page for Outer Dark after I finish rereading it, so it might be a good idea to add that pothole to the three strangers' writeup. No hurry or anything, just gonna let you know when I'm finished.
Korbitt.
Anyway, here's my next effort post.
What is the work?
Moribito is a fantasy novel series by Nahoko Uehashi, who also wrote The Beast Player. It centers on Balsa Yonsa, a spear-wielding bodyguard for hire, in a diverse Asian-inspired setting. She, along with her friends, encounters mythical creatures from the Spirit World, which influences the human world.
The candidates are the Greater-Scope Villain and Arc Villain of Guardian of the Darkness, which narrates her journey to cope with her Dark and Troubled Past. After a mystical encounter with a hyohlu, the titular Guardian of the Darkness, she uncovers the true depths of the conspiracy going on even after Rogsam's death.
Who are Rogsam and Yuguro Musa? What have they done?
Rogsam was the Crown Prince of Kanbal, who let his older brother, Naguru, win a struggle among the four princes for succession to the throne. However, he waited for an opportunity to fulfill his ambition before Naguru could have a child, much to the misery of many people.
When Naguru fell sick as usual, Rogsam ordered royal physician Karuna Yonsa to poison Naguru under threat of killing the six-year-old Balsa. After following Rogsam's order, Karuna told Jiguro Musa, his best friend and one of the King's Spears, the Crown Prince's treacherous plot and entrusted Balsa to the warrior because the physician knew Rogsam would kill not only him for knowing too much but also his daughter to prevent further reprisals. Karuna's prediction proved right when Rogsam had him killed and disguised it as a robbery only days after he faked Balsa's death to cover up her escape.
Rogsam sent eight youths — from the Spears and their attendants in the Giving Ceremony — on a deadly mission to kill Jiguro under the pretense that the escaped Spear committed the treason of stealing the rings of the Spears to prevent his coronation at the expense of the bond between the royal family and the nine clans. According to Toto, Rogsam intended the deaths of the eight assassins to reign absolute, but he did not know the consequences:
[...]
Toto looked at Balsa with glittering eyes. "You think that Jiguro killed his friends. But that's because he couldn't say more. Like all those who have been to the Mountain King's palace, he vowed to remain silent for life about what he had witnessed there." Toto moistened his lips. "Let me tell you how the ceremony works. If you think about why youths of only sixteen or seventeen are allowed to attend when it's supposed to be for the strongest spear-wielders in Kanbal, you'll understand why he did something much worse than just killing his friends.
"Up until now, this ceremony was held about once every twenty years. To participate more than once, a man would have to be under twenty-five the first time he went as an attendant or a Spear, because by forty-five he'd be reaching his limit as a spear-wielder. The first Spears, who knew just how difficult, how terrifying, the ceremony was, made sure that at least some of the participants would be experienced enough to prevent failure. They started the custom of bringing attendants so that nine participants were always young enough to participate in the next ceremony."
The stern light in Toto's eyes sharpened. "Now do you understand? All the young men that Jiguro killed had served either as a Spear or as an attendant in the last ceremony thirty-five years ago. In other words, Jiguro slew all those who might have become the Dancer in the next ceremony."
Before dying of illness, Rogsam wanted his only son, Radalle (rather than the younger brothers he hated; the English translation skips this explanation), to succeed him as king because Radalle was easily manipulated and timid. He summoned Yuguro Musa, the younger brother of Kaguro and Jiguro, and threatened to kill the latter unless he accepted eight of the rings from the king and the last one from Jiguro as a hero. Rogsam casually revealed his treacherous plot while aware that Yuguro could not prove Jiguro's innocence even if he wanted to. But in practice, Rogsam intentionally offered Yuguro the most convenient opportunity imaginable; Yuguro resented "hiding in the shadows, trying to avoid the contempt of the court", for much of his life because of his dishonored brother. As Rogsam intended, Yuguro protected Radalle as his chief Spear to maintain his pretense as a hero who killed his brother and retrieved all the rings to restore the honor of the Musa clan.
Yuguro's ambition, however, exceeded Rogsam's imagination when he suddenly realized that "[n]one of those who had experienced the last Giving Ceremony would be the right age to participate in the next one." He enlisted the help of his nephew, Kahm, in his secret plan to gain free access to luisha, the most precious gem in Kanbal, by overthrowing the Mountain King with an army of several hundred men. Not even Laloog Yonsa's knowledge as one of the few surviving participants stopped it. In fact, Yuguro kept one of the Spears busy just to prevent him from learning anything, lest his men fear the hyohlu kill them for their hostility against the Mountain King.
Learning that Balsa has come to Kanbal, Yuguro sends Dom and Kahm (his brother-in-law and nephew respectively) on a mission to kill her and prevent anyone from knowing the truth of his past under the pretense that she's a cunning thief threatening the Musa clan for her petty revenge. Balsa barely survives getting stabbed by Dom's poisoned spear tip, and not even Kahm knows about the poison. Yuguro makes a speech to turn the people of Kanbal against her under the same pretense, also exaggerating Kahm's injury to disgrace him in the process, but Laloog and Kaguro come to believe her with the help of her aunt.
During the Giving Ceremony, Yuguro misleadingly calls Kassa and Balsa monsters in disguise testing the participants and lunges at Kassa, his own another nephew of only fifteen, with his spear for trying to reveal the secret of the Giving Ceremony written in Laloog's letter. Fortunately, Kahm holds Yuguro back from killing Kassa, and Balsa wins in a duel against Yuguro to take the role of the Dancer.
Jiguro in hyohlu form appears in front of Yuguro, who feigns remorse in a futile attempt to put him to rest: "Brother, do you blame me? Perhaps what I did seems unfair. But surely you can understand. I had no choice. It was the only way to redeem the honor of the Musa clan. It must have been hard for you, brother. Very hard. But I'll ease your suffering; I'll ease your pain. Open the door to the palace of the Mountain King — for the sake of the people of Kanbal, for their happiness. You understand, don't you? This is the only way I can save you... If you do this, Kanbal will become a rich nation. No one will go hungry, you see? Your people will be filled with gratitude. The shame you bore will become a tragic legend, and your life will at least have meaning!"
As it did not move Jiguro at all, however, Yuguro reveals his true feelings: "You fool! You pitiful man, clinging to past tragedy just because the path you chose ended in disaster. Yet you dare to blame me! You terrible, terrible fool! Damn you! It's me who should blame you! Do you realize what you did to my life by fleeing Kanbal for someone else's daughter? Do you know how I felt all those years I spent trying to be invisible? How I hated you! [...] Die, damn you! You're dead already! How long are you going to keep ruining my life? If you'd just go away, the glory would be mine! If you're truly my brother, give me the luisha! Make up for what you did to me! Give it to me! And then die already! Go back into the darkness forever!"
After Balsa spares Jiguro the grief of having to kill his brother, the Spear Dance between the woman and her foster father puts all the hyohlu to rest, turning them into the luisha. Yuguro ultimately returns alive from the ceremony as well, but the Darkness there has destroyed his mind, rendering him unable to manipulate words anymore. Furthermore, "those who had shared Yuguro's dream of invading the Mountain Deep relegated it to the past and behaved as if the plan had never been conceived". A fitting end for this worthless man.
Heinousness?
Balsa stared in amazement at the man who stood before her with his arms spread wide. He is the real monster, she thought. He feels no shame at all that he betrayed Jiguro, his own brother, to become a false hero. She remembered Jiguro's joy and relief when he had passed on the Spear Dance and the gold ring, and a wave of nausea rose from deep in her chest. This worthless man had taken all the misery they had endured and exploited it to his own advantage: Jiguro's agony at having to slay his own friends, his grief-stricken face streaming with tears, the days of hunger and sleeping in the mud, the shudder of his spear in his hands as he plunged it into flesh—just to make enough money for them to survive.
Rogsam and Yuguro may not have a huge body count, but they're both the most personally despicable villains in this Long-Running Book Series.
Rogsam had Naguru's own physician kill his master and the prince's brother to usurp the throne under threat of killing the physician's six-year-old daughter before ordering both dead anyway because Karuna would have known too much after having served his purpose and to prevent further reprisals respectively. He didn't have the Mikado's excuse of wanting to prevent a national crisis (though out of a misunderstanding) in Guardian of the Spirit, Prince Talusan's of acting under the influence of a spell from Traveler of the Void, or Keelan's of killing Sada Taluhamaya to end her bloody tyranny from Guardian of the God. Prince Rawul of Talsh from Traveler of the Indigo Road may threaten to burn the palace of New Yogo, mutilate Chagum's family, and make him hear their screams for angering him, but I think Rogsam's initial crimes are another story.
Rogsam also framed Jiguro, one of the King's Spears and his martial arts instructor, for treason to send the best nine youths from his country to their deaths, forcing the Musa clan to live in false shame for fifteen years in the process. The youths were the Spears and their attendants in the Giving Ceremony, who would have been the right age to participate in the next one but for him. Not even the Mikado in Traveler of the Indigo Road has such an elaborate excuse to remove Chagum and his grandfather as political threats if I remember correctly, and the kings of Kanbal and Lota in Guardian of Heaven and Earth send their armies (including the current Spears) to help Chagum stop a genuine threat in the form of the Talsh invasion.
Unlike Hyugo (who serves the conqueror of his homeland and the killer of his family to improve things for the people of Talsh), Yuguro selfishly and remorselessly accepted Rogsam's proposal and maintained the pretense for prestige even though he knew the king's treacherous plot that dishonored his innocent brother and their entire clan. He is also worse than the court of New Yogo in Guardian of the Spirit due to his knowledge from Laloog about "everything that happens in the Darkness [before the Spear Dance]", including the true nature of the hyohlu as the ghosts of the previous participants and their ability to read the minds of men. In fact, he does anything to prevent anyone else from knowing anything and doesn't even care about how many of his allies (including one of his nephews) the hyohlu kill for trying to overthrow the Mountain King.
He's also not above mistreating those who admire him (such as Kahm) or trying to kill his young nephew as a monster in disguise even though he must have known otherwise. Sufahl from Guardian of the God, on the other hand, merely wants to kill little Asla due to the bloodthirsty god inside her. Laloog says it best, that he's "not a fool, but rather dangerously hard-hearted".
Mitigating factors?
Guardian of the Darkness says Rogsam doted on Radalle and enlisted the help of Yuguro to make sure that the young man would reign instead of the younger brothers he hated. That's the only information in the series about the relationship between Rogsam and Radalle, and given that even Yuguro knew Rogsam was rotten to the core, I doubt if he genuinely loved his only son.
Yuguro may talk about gaining free access to luisha for the poor people of Kanbal, but he only wants eternal glory and doesn't care about how many of his allies (including one of his nephews) the hyohlu kill. He is even willing to kill his other nephew for trying to reveal the secret of the hyohlu as well. He only protects Radalle because the latter is useful as the Puppet King, with Guardian of the Darkness noting that "[i]f he had been strong-willed, at some point he and Yuguro must inevitably have clashed, and then Yuguro might have allied himself with a different, more manageable prince."
Jiguro might love Yuguro since the latter was a child, but Yuguro hates Jiguro supposedly for forcing him to "hid[e] in the shadows", so much so that he secretly despises Kahm, his nephew and one of the allies in his secret plan, for being "like Jiguro, incapable of being anything but straight and honest". Guardian of the Darkness makes it clear that he only feigns remorse to Jiguro in hyohlu form, having no sympathy for the plight his brother went through with "someone else's daughter". Nothing suggests he loves Kaguro either; Kaguro says Yuguro's plan would be good for the people of Kanbal upon learning it from Laloog, but Yuguro keeps him out of the loop beforehand, implying that he distrusts even his surviving brother. His relationship with Dom is just a master giving orders to a subordinate.
The only information about his relationship with Shisheem is that Kahm is "blind to the fact that Yuguro was making him bear a risk to which he would never expose his own son". He may also be described as kind to his sister's husband and talk about how Gina takes after her in courage during the speech that slanders Balsa, but that's all regarding his relationships with the rest of his kin, and given the above facts, I don't think it's enough to establish that he loves them.
Conclusion?
Honestly? I'd keep them both. Yuguro, in particular, is Sigma from Tweeny Witches with good publicity and no redeeming qualities.
Edited by IukaSylvie on Mar 25th 2020 at 12:16:52 AM
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Rogsam and Yuguro Musa
Edited by KazuyaProta on Mar 24th 2020 at 5:20:26 AM
Watch me destroying my country