During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Joey Tai.
The Unknown
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Megabug. It doesn't sound like it has any discernible motive.
I just reserved Knack 2 and Dragon Ball Fighterz for discussion. I also took the liberty of reserving Castlevania's second season and onwards for myself and Scraggle, which I'm not sure is presumptuous or unethical, but I can easily change it if you want.
Speaking of Knack 2, I just beat it. And it's way better than the first game which I almost hate. PM me if you wanna talk about it.
I know I said a while back that I'd get around to voting later, and I'm sorry I haven't. Been busy with other things. Anyway, I'd like to propose an edit to the Driver.
Old: The Driver is a Serial Killer who rear-ends women to coax them into giving him their personal information. He then scouts their house, and waits until night to stalk them in their home, checking in on them via text messages and then murdering them. After killing them, he assumes a different name using his victim's last name and the first letter of their first name, then takes their money, which he uses to refill his gas tank when he's running low, and finally takes the next exit to claim another victim. The first time he makes his presence known in movie, he stalks and kills a woman named Jennifer Barker before departing with her license plate and the alias "Jonathon Barker". The driver then rear-ends a 17-year-old girl named Hilary, apologizes, and the two exchange their personal information and Hilary takes photographs of the accident. Later that night, he breaks into her house and takes pictures of her in the shower, murders her ex-boyfriend, and cuts the power and chases Hilary and her friends through the house. He kills Rachel first, stabbing her, then throws her out the window and runs her over when he sees she's still alive. He kills Erik, then goes after Hilary, who manages to fight him off. Narrowly surviving being bludgeoned, stabbed and burnt, he kills her, too. The next morning, he calmly undresses and takes some things of value from Hilary before assuming the name "Henry Diaz" and resuming his murder spree.
New:
The Driver is a Serial Killer who rear-ends women to coax them into giving him their personal information. He then scouts their house, and waits until night to stalk them in their home, checking in on them via text messages and then murdering them. After killing them, he assumes a different name using his victim's last name and the first letter of their first name, then takes their money, which he uses to refill his gas tank when he's running low, and finally takes the next exit to claim another victim. The first time he makes his presence known in movie, he stalks and kills a woman named Jennifer Barker before departing with her license plate and the alias "Jonathon Barker". The driver then rear-ends a 17-year-old girl named Hilary, apologizes, and the two exchange their personal information and Hilary takes photographs of the accident. Later that night, he breaks into her house and takes pictures of her in the shower, murders her ex-boyfriend, and cuts the power and chases Hilary and her friends through the house. He kills Rachel first, stabbing her, then throws her out the window and runs her over when he sees she's still alive. He kills Erik, then goes after Hilary, who manages to fight him off. Narrowly surviving being bludgeoned, stabbed and burnt, he kills her, too. The next morning, he calmly undresses and takes some things of value from Hilary before assuming the name "Henry Diaz" and resuming his murder spree. Cunning and depraved, the Driver is revealed to have killed dozens of women across the country using his insidious MO.
edited 12th Sep '17 4:57:03 PM by Stellarvore
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I think it's an unnecessary add on. We already get that he's "cunning and depraved" from the impression of his existing write up and we've already got him as a Serial Killer with his listed MO.
If anything, I think it could use a bit of a trim... not a big fan of how the write up goes off listing character names when I think they could be referred to as "a boy", "a girl", etc.
edited 12th Sep '17 5:24:09 PM by 43110
No one in F.E.A.R. can count. Megabug, Joey Tai.
That's Dr. Title, thank you!
Megabug. What the effort posts argues is moral agency, I just see as evidence that the programming underlying the Megabug is somewhat complex. It's a situation similar to the D-Reaper, but less explicit. Without any explicit motivation from the Megabug, all I have to determine sentience versus nonsentience is the game's insistence that it is a bug or virus, which hints at it being non-sentient.
The Driver is a Serial Killer who's killed dozens of women across the country. He rear-ends his victims to coax them into giving him their personal information. He then scouts their house, and waits until night to stalk and murder them. After killing them, he assumes a different name using his victim's last name and the first letter of their first name, then takes their money, which he uses to refill his gas tank when he's running low, and finally takes the next exit to claim another victim. The first time he makes his presence known in movie, he stalks and kills a woman before departing with her license plate and a new alias. Then he rear-ends a teenage girl, and gets her personal information. Later that night, he murders her ex-boyfriend, then chases the girl and her friends through the house. The first one he stabs, then throws her out the window and runs her over when he sees she's still alive. He stabs the second victim, then goes after his intended target, who manages to fight him off. Narrowly surviving being bludgeoned, stabbed and burnt, he kills her, too before assuming a new name and leaving to continue his murder spree.
Better? I wanted to incorporate that he's killed dozens somewhere in there, because imo, saying so helps set him apart from your average slasher. We never actually get to see him kill all those women, but we do see his license collection and a clear enough pattern to his onscreen crimes. And if the description of his MO sounds too long, I might trim that, too, but Lightysnake suggested adding that in, since it connects his victims.
edited 12th Sep '17 8:23:15 PM by Stellarvore
Maybe end it with "Narrowly surviving being bludgeoned, stabbed and burnt, he kills her, too before creating a new name and going to repeat his crimes."
I think since his MO is already listed we've got an idea of what he's gonna do. "Alias" is listed twice but other than that very good rewrite buddy
edited 12th Sep '17 8:10:38 PM by 43110
Oops, you're right, it was. Alright, I fixed it. Thank you for your feedback.
New proposal, from The Mad Monster.
Who's the candidate?
Dr. Lorenzo Cameron, a Mad Scientist who seeks to create werewolves.
What does he do?
Rejected by the scientific community for his plan being insane, Cameron experiments on his gardner, Petro. Succesfully creating a lycanthrope, the madman sets out with his ultimate plan to kill all who ostracized him.
The next night, the final phase of the experiment is completed. Cameron turns Petro and send him into the woods. Wolf!Petro tries to kill a hunter in the woods, but he escapes. The creature pursues his prey to a house, and kills a child who lives there.
Satisfied that his experiment was successful, Cameron pursues his revenge. Contacting one Professor Blaine, he offers to demonstrate his theory. He then goes out to get another of his nemeses, Fitzgerald, (so he can arrange that killing and have an alibi), while Blaine is killed by Wolf!Petro.
Over the next few nights, Wolf!Petro starts to grow independent of his master. Cameron notices this and plans to kill him, but decides against it due to still having plans for the beast. He ends up arranging things so that Fitzgerald and Petro are in a car together when the latter turns, Fitzgerald dying from wounds sustained in the ensuing car crash. That night, Wolf!Petro breaks free completely and kills Cameron before dying himself in a fire.
Heinousness?
Big Bad and Villain Protagonist, sets it. As for the average Mad Scientist heinous standard, he exceeds it by virtue of being from the Hays Code era.
Mitigating factors?
Cameron mentions planning to sell his serum to the Defense Department so they can win World War II. However, this is in the middle of a monologue about how he plans to ascend his position in society with this serum and explaining how it would be useful.
He's friendly to Petro, but only for manipulative purposes. Doesn't show any real love for his daughter, either. Best he had to say for her was that she was a "comfort" to him. Seems pretty possessive to me.
His motive isn't played for sympathy. His victims are portrayed as perfectly nice and reasonable people who happened to think his theory was fucking nuts.
Verdict?
Film's pretty fun if you're into '40's horror. It's in the public domain, so it's pretty easy to access.
Dr. Cameron... dubbing your experiment a success for killing a child is pretty cold, especially in a 1940s film. On another note... seems like a rational dude, great way to prove he's not insane and stick it to his colleagues.
Dr. Cameron
Dr. Cameron
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Lorenzo
@Scraggle I think Larkman is right. Planning to do the same thing to Victoria may actually establish a pattern of Barkus having done it more than once. Thing is whether or not it was mentioned in passing though.
to Doctor Cameron Lorenzo.
The MILF Virus
I have a candidate: Bishop Stone/Stein from Xenogears
Who is he and what does he do?
An agent for Solaris to control the religious organization Ethos which is actually an ancient conspiracy used by the Solaris government to lure in people from orphans to people desperately looking for purpose in life in order to be used for cruel experiments which mutate them to monsters. These monsters can actually think and speak, but because of a result of the experiments they become psychotic and hunt people down for being jealous of them and had a misguided belief that they can recover their human form by eating their flesh. Stein himself doesn't perform the experiments, but he is aware and is been doing this for years which results in thousands of victims. When the Ethos planned to rebel against Solaris, he brutally slaughters all of them very casually despite being their colleague for years and having been seen as a leader and father figure by most of them.
But what's probably worse than all of this is his actions towards his most loyal follower Billy (A party member and his main enemy). While the above can be just him being a Knights Templar and just following orders, this part is something he's doing personally. It turns he pined for Billy's mother Raquel along with his rival Jesiah, but when Raquel chose Jesiah over him, he murders her one night for rejecting his feelings while making it look like an accident. As a result Billy becomes resentful to his father and his sister Primera becomes mute. Then when Jesiah left out of guilt for the actions Solaris is doing, he takes in his son, who was still traumatize of her death, in order to train him into becoming a priest of Ethos while nurturing his hatred to his father. This as a result tricked Billy into killing beings called Wels or Reapers, which are the monster that was the result of the experiments he lured people into. When the charade is revealed he reveals to Billy everything and cruelly mock him for his belief towards the Ethos.
Heinousness?
Despite being a supporting villain, and a typical Evil Chancellor he's not like the other villains, where there soldiers who follow their belief. He doesn't fight with honor like the others despite being a trained Mech pilot, and he's downright cruel on a personal level. All the others, except for Miang who is already a Complete Monster, had some sort of respect to the enemy or unity to there own teammates, he doesn't. He treats his allies as either beneath him or respect out of wanting to gain power from them, and his enemy as sadistic as possible. And while his actions aren't as grand Miang, who is a Big Bad, it still has a lasting effect due to the roles of the Reapers/Wels in the story and the effect it leaves to Billy.
Mitigating Factors?
He's does follow his orders from Solaris, but like I said it doesn't excuse it since he's done horrible things for personal reasons which doesn't involve Solaris. Killing the girl that rejected him and raising his son to trick him into doing Solaris dirty work by killing monsters who are actually humans.
Also he shows a friendly demeanor, but is only a facade to lure in more victims to the Ethos conspiracy.
He doesn't perform the experiments, but it's like saying the kidnapper is innocent because he wasn't the torturing the victims he was giving to the serial killer fully aware what's going on. He doesn't even show remorse for it.
Verdict:
A great villain, and one that gives a strong impact, but that's what most Complete Monsters do.
"Are you the devil?" "Don't compare to me to those small fry" - Mir
Lorenzo Cameron.
Someone commented out Complete Monster and Cry for the Devil on YMMV.RWBY, claiming they're mutually exclusive.
Discussion here. AFAIK they're not mutually exclusive (Complete Monster and Sympathy for the Devil, on the other hard, would be), but I don't know the work so I can't say if there's a mitigating factor there.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
I'm not familiar with Xenogears universe but I'll give a tentative to Bishop Stein I guess.......Anyone wanna elaborate on Xenogears candidate and it's heinous standard?
edited 13th Sep '17 6:17:13 AM by ElfenLiedFan90
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
I'm like... 90 percent sure the consensus here was to not put up Cinder Fall as an example until her arc was definitely over.
Only played Xenoblade but I'll give a for Stein. I'm assuming resources for this.
edited 13th Sep '17 9:33:11 AM by ReynTime250
I'll give a late![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
for Brandon, assuming his having AIDS isn't portrayed at all sympathetically (which, looking at the work's IMDB page, doesn't seem to be the case). And yeah, below the folder is fine. That folder is just for the incomplete trees so they don't clog the page.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts