Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Thanks for all the feedback.

Hidan is treated seriously in-story, since he's a big threat, and a vile one at that. Nobody treats him as comic relief except for his similarly evil partner*

. His evil deeds are all treated seriously, and so is his (ungraceful) death. I think he counts at this point?

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer

The only thing I have against Hidan being a Complete Monster is that his partner (and maybe the other villains, I don't remember) doesn't really take him seriously, at one point calling him a moron. Everybody else does hate him.

edited 10th May '12 4:43:26 AM by Nithael

I'm willing to give a pass if other villains don't treat him as a totally serious threat... particularly if the story shows that they really should treat him seriously, and they don't because they're evil. And possibly stupid.

As for the fanbrats... well, he'd hardly be the first Complete Monster with leather pants in his closet.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.

Okay, I gave a holler to moderator ccoa regarding Coldman, so essentially its back on track.

Okay, first off, Well-Intentioned Extremist s are not on the Complete Monster list for a good reason: They have altruistic qualities. Coldman has neither. Saying that trying to reduce the planet to cinders in order to get rid of nuclear weapons is a well intentioned extremist view is just like saying that Dr. Weil was a Well-Intentioned Extremist simply because he genuinely thought that the world would be a better place if Reploids had their free will taken away. Last time I checked, Weil not only is referred to as a Complete Monster, there was absolutely nothing altruistic about his motives.

And BTW, his view on MAD wasn't a view on Well-Intentioned Extremist. If it were, he would have supplied the code to deactivate Peace Walker just in case, however unlikely in his mind, his view was wrong (Since his last words imply that he does at least suspect the possibility that MAD might work on a human level). Instead, he was strongly implied to have deliberately died before divulging the abort code in order to ensure that no one could stop it. That, in itself, proves that he is not a Well-Intentioned Extremist. Besides, the fact that he orchestrated the event that nearly resulted in America going into a nuclear war a second time around (IE, the aftermath of the Virtuous Mission, which was strongly implied to be part of his plan to kill off The Boss) pretty much already demonstrated that he wouldn't have actually cared about MAD either way. He also hd absolutely no regret in planning to have her killed, also, the planning of which was apparently as far back as the Virtuous Mission, going by statements made by the characters, which likewise meant that he himself had absolutely no qualms with instigating a nuclear war.

And doing what's best for his country? Tell me, then. If he believed he was doing what's best for his country, then please explain why he deliberately, knowingly had his group continue the KGB's drug trade route when it was under their control, a decision that would cause a lot of junkies in America (something that Amanda actually expressed horror at)? And no, being afraid of a Communist Central America is not an excuse for this. They could have done other options besides continuing the drug trade route that has the benefit of keeping Central America from becoming Communist in addition to not poisoning American youth. For one thing, he would have supplied the plants to people he would know for certain would not be either drug cartel members, or affiliated with Communist groups. Or, he could have just destroyed the compound while telling the people nearby with honesty that it was the result of a drug cartel backed by a Socialist group and the Soviets. The fact that he was working with the KGB of all people, and pretty much sold out the American base to the KGB, all for equipment and technology, also pretty much showcased that he wasn't above betraying American interests for his goals.

Besides, he was already acknowledged as a Complete Monster in-universe by several characters in the game, so he still qualifies in either case, there's no other explanation for it, so he is to be added back in.

edited 10th May '12 7:15:58 AM by EJO1

Did I miss something? Did a new Metal Gear game featuring Coldman come out in the last month that desperately changes how the character should be viewed? I believe the pertinent response to this, which I gave back in post 728, is as follows:

Hollering to a mod because you failed to convince people in a debate over an entry is extremely poor form.

edited 10th May '12 8:25:57 AM by 32_Footsteps

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.

I believe it was you who suggested that if I were to restart the debate I should holler to a mod. I certainly recall you saying that shortly after my final reply until today. And anyways, ccoa's response was to take it to the discussion, and that's exactly what I did, and given the fact that he was the one who removed it earlier, he would already know about the earlier discussion.

Anyways, he's already been confirmed in-universe in Peace Walker by Huey and Snake to be one, at least (They referred to him as an irredeemable mass murderer). If it's acknowledged in-universe, then it doesn't matter what you or even I think. He's a complete monster, and that's final. I can also assure you that there are other posters besides myself who agree that he is an irredeemable person. You don't think so? Fine, that's your viewpoint. However, more people still think so, even Shaoken, who was one of the people who claimed that he was a Complete Monster on Peace Walker and even mentioned that he was acknowledged in-universe as one on the Peace Walker page.

edited 10th May '12 8:45:03 AM by EJO1

The reason I told you to save me time and holler for a mod is because I was going to holler for one to report you for trying to spam the thread about a subject that the rest of us moved on from.

Consequently, since you did bring it up again, I did holler for a mod to address the fact that you will not let the subject go. Simply put, you failed to convince anyone that you were right. We're not changing our minds, particularly when you bug us repeatedly on the issue. End of story.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.

A character can generally not be a Complete Monster in-universe, since fictional characters don't read Tv Tropes, and Complete Monster is a "trope-speak" term. While this particular example isn't as bad as others I've seen (in which the "proof" was that a villainous character was called You Monster!), I'd still stay that while it's close to Complete Monster, "irredeemable mass murderer" is not quite a synonym.

Hodor

Fine, then I have another suggestion for the Complete Monster cleanup.

Remove Dr. Weil.

After all, he had the motivation of wanting to ensure peace by getting Reploids into having their free will being removed, and orchestrated the Elf Wars in order to ensure that reploids could have their free will removed so the Maverick Wars would end. Well Intentioned Extremist, therefore not a Complete Monster.

Similarly, we should also remove Volgin. After all, he also stated that his motivation was trying to heal the rift of the Philosophers.

Heck, here's a better idea: Just delete the entire Complete Monster trope, period.

<MOD HAT ON>

EJO 1, stop throwing a hissy fit because you disagree. If you want to participate in this discussion, you shouldn't be obstructive when your ideas are shot down. Enough.

<MOD HAT OFF>

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer

A hissy fit? I'm only pointing out that it makes little sense either way that one character who matches that descriptiom makes the cut whereas another who matches the same description doesn't. It's either they all fit in or they don't. That's how rules work. As a mod, you should be aware of that.

In fact, right now, I no longer even see the point behind a trope such as Complete Monster if there is no strict, consistent method that works 100% of the time.

And I gave sound reasons as to why Weil and Volgin at the very least have got to be removed. You said Well Intentioned Extremists, IE, those who legitimately believe that they are doing the right thing by their actions, are exempt from the trope. Weil and Volgin, by some of the statements on their character pages, and in the games themselves, would also qualify under that trope as well, which means they have to be removed as well. Palpatine also legitimately believed that a Sith-run government was going to be for the benefit of the Galaxy, so that itself makes him a Well-Intentioned Extremist, and thus applicable for removal as well.

Kefka might also have to be removed because he was a Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds, and thus also is ineligable for the trope.

In fact, a lot of characters in the Complete Monster trope, by the definitions you gave, shouldn't be on there.

I'm going to stick to the Metal Gear Solid and Star Wars cases here, since I know them.

At what point are they said to be doing what they do for any reason other than to get power for themselves?

Last time I checked that was empty rhetoric he spouted to make people think he was doing the right thing.

"Yup. That tasted purple."

Saying we should delete an entire trope because of apparent inconsistencies you noticed is childish, obstructive and yes, it's basically throwing a fit. This trope was hammered out after a lot of painful procedures, and you shouldn't throw around overreacting tantrums because someone doesn't agree with you.

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer

Regarding Palpatine, it was stated on his page on Wookieepedia:

"Although possessed of an insatiable hunger for power, he [Palpatine] honestly believed a Sith government would be best for the galaxy, and in time came to regard himself as something of a savior.[130]

[130] Revenge of the Sith: The Visual Dictionary"

And for Volgin, he mentioned that he wanted to heal the rift caused by the Philosophers' infighting shortly before the final battle with him.

In either case, the only way rules work 100% of the time is if they are absolutely consistent, with no deviations. That's why there can't be public opinion, as rules shatter the instant diverging opinions come into play. Doesn't matter to me if they are to me or to anyone else. Heck, personally, I feel as though everyone should be devoid of free will, myself included, and obey all rules absolutely without question.

I actually tried to implement Hot Coldman into the trope because he did fit in. Heck, I actually compared his actions to that of Dr. Weil. If you looked closely between Hot Coldman's entry and Weil's entry, you would actually notice that the style of writing was similar.

edited 10th May '12 10:04:32 AM by EJO1

So you're saying he shouldn't be included because of a case of All There in the Manual from a source of questionable canonicity?

"Yup. That tasted purple."

It was given by Lucas Arts, and it was pretty much G-Canon, or at least C-Canon, so at the very least, its reason enough to consider getting rid of it.

The very same article you cite (here) has a couple templates about out-of-date-ness and sources of dubious canonicity.

Edit: Though the citation for the fact in question isn't from either of the sources marked as dubious. But still, it makes me less trusting of the page.

edited 10th May '12 10:29:34 AM by Telcontar

That was the amazing part. Things just keep going.

I think the way to handle Palpatine is to treat each version distinct from any other adaptations, particularly given the arguments over just how much a given Expanded Universe work counts as Canon for Star Wars. Thus, Palpy could be called a Complete Monster for one or two media, but not necessarily all of them. It also resolves us of putting our necks out as to what should be considered canon overall if we just point to a particular work and say "Well, he's a Complete Monster here, for sure."

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.

Should we bring up people we don't believe are Complete Monsters as well? Especially if they're on the media page itself instead of the Complete Monster page? (I've checked, there's no entry on the CM page, just the YMMV.)

Specifically, Zoda from StarTropics. The villainy isn't shown onscreen at all. You only 'hear' that evil aliens destroyed the Argonians (I think that's what they're called) and nothing indicates that Zoda knew he was trying to wipe out the remnants of the race when he found the ruined spaceship.

Should I give more detail to make a decision here? Or just take it off with my explanation?

Don't take life too seriously. It's only a temporary situation.

@869 Please bring them up here - others have, and the cleanup is for any reference to would-be Complete Monster candidates, either on the CM pages or elsewhere.

I agree on Zoda - he was really a Generic Doomsday Villain. In fact, thinking on it, I don't think it's even clear in StarTropics if he's even really sentient.

EDIT: I generally only ask for more detail myself if I'm not familiar with the work... that said, it never hurts to provide it.

edited 10th May '12 2:51:52 PM by 32_Footsteps

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.

Okay, rapid-fire rebutal of EJO 1's points;

Volgin never had such a noble goal; he wasn't trying to reunite the Philosphers (who had died out before the start of the game), he was simply a sadist who got off on inflicting pain on others and to replace the current Soviet chairman with one more to his liking. At no point does he say or suggest he's seeking to heal the rift in the world; he's already claimed the Legacy as his own instead of returning it to the philosphers, he's aiming to turn the Cold War into a hot one (ie, based off Sokolov's comments the Shagohad will result in a world war), and killed several characters needlessly (Granin, Sokolov) just because he enjoyed it.

Weil, no matter his intentions, started a war that got 90% of the Reploid population and 60% of the human one killed AFTER the Marverick wars had finally come to an end, when he came back he dropped a high-yield bomb on a populated city just to grab at the Mother Elf, attempts to brainwash the resistance, when he's in command of his own city treats the population (human and reploid) horribly as "punishment" for how both races had treated him in the past, interefers with settlements made up of people who fled his regieme, and his final act in the series was to try and drop Ragnarok on said settlement, an act that could have potentially killed the entire fucking planet. His "intentions" were that Reploids were an inferior race (which is a henious viewpoint by the settings standards since the Marvick wars had just ended peacefully), and when he gets power he uses it to oppress people out of petty revenge for the punishment he got for NEAR-GENOCIDE!

To even suggest that he's comparable to someone like Coldman, whose body count is not even in the triple-digits is just laughable.

As for Palpintine, the bulk of canon shows he's just in it for the power. He takes glee in exterminating the Jedi, he let Tarkin destroy Alderan with the Death Star and support his doctrine of ruling through fear, and hell he even turned his back on the Sith Doctrine by setting it up so he would always be ruler and that his apprenticies could never gain enough power to kill him, which was against the entire point of the rule of 2.

There, easy. Done. Any actual arguments?

I also have many other potential candidates for removal

From Film:

• Ernst Stavro Blofeld himself could also count. This is the man who invented the concept of nuclear and biological terrorism (Thunderball and On Her Majestys Secret Service are arguably the earliest examples of either plot in fiction). His schemes about world domination are always the most megalomaniac ones: like blackmailing the entire world, extorting an unimaginable ransoms, or he'll cause great damage, killing thousands or millions of human lives. Besides, many archenemies usually have a bit of a sense of honor towards their good counterpart, but Blofeld doesn't — he orders James Bond's death to be a particularly unpleasant and humiliating one, and later kills his wife in the process of trying to murder him. You better think twice before working for him, as you've probably seen what kind of You Have Failed Me punishments this Bad Boss has in store for you if you fail him.

While he is certainly a bastard, he sounds as more of a standard villain, and by the way, isn't he too Affably Evil sometimes??

From Video Games:

• Tamir, also from the first game of Assassins Creed. He seemed proud of the countless lives taken by his blades. Even during his assassination, he mercilessly stabs an innocent man to death.

This is very monstrous but he believes himself to be Well-Intentioned Extremist so is he automatically out of the list??

From Disney:

• Mirage from Aladdin series, because unlike the other villains, she has no motivation in destroying Agrabah other than for her own malice. Iago even mentions her a evil incarnate.

This makes her certainly worse than other villains, but not automatically a CM. She doesn't alter the tone of the work.

edited 11th May '12 2:51:26 AM by MONEYMONEY

Okay, to Shaoken, the part about Volgin wanting to heal the rift to the Philosophers was actually stated in the game. Don't believe me? Take a good look at this line:

Volgin: I used it to contact The Boss and suggested she defect. The Boss was conniving enough to see things my way. The world was once one but the conflict between the Philosophers has torn it in two. We will use the Legacy to heal that rift and make the world whole again. To do this, we need strength. An unstoppable trump card with enough power to bring order to the world. That trump card was to be the Shagohod... and the Cobra unit. I have lost the Cobras but I still have the Shagohod and the Legacy. There is nothing America can do to stop us! Boss, take this someplace safe. (hesitantly hands over the microfilm) Take good care of it.

That line was uttered during his exposition on what the Philosopher's Legacy is, and he implies that he was trying to do this for the purpose of healing the rift caused by the infighting of the Philosophers.

As for Palpatine, the Visual Dictionary for Revenge of the Sith stated that he genuinely believed that a Sith-run government would be in the best interest for the Galaxy, and it was initially stated that a well-intentioned extremist is automatically cut off from being a complete monster, regardless of how little it was in comparison to their heinous actions.

I think that's about it. I'd comment on the whole Weil and Coldman comparisons issue, but I doubt I have much of a choice but not to. Regarding MONEY MONEY's examples I haven't watched (or in the case of "Assassin's Creed," played) much of the things MONEY MONEY commented on, or paid attention to in either case, so I can't comment.

edited 11th May '12 5:57:11 AM by EJO1

Of those three, Blofield I'd take off because he has an Even Evil Has Standads moment over one of his underlings raping a woman they were holding for ransom, so he has some honour.

Tamir I'd have to double-check on, but there was only one Complete Monster in the first game, and that was the target that admits to you he was only in it because he wanted to hurt people.

Mirage, cut her. Too short an example.

*sigh*

What he's describing isn't healing the rift between the philospher's; it's bringing the world under Soviet control. And let's not forget, he kills people because he enjoys it, not out of any kind of tangible gain, and even when it's disadvantagous to do so; he killed Granin based on no tangible evidence that he was a traitor, even though Granin was one of the greatest weapon's designers in the world. Ditto for Sokolov. He blew up Sokolov's research facility just to try out the Davey Crocket, that wasn't for any noble intentions.

Even if you took his "heal the world through superior force" at face value, he still murders people painfully just because he enjoys it, which is why he's a CM. Coldman at the very least limited his evil to actions that furthered Peace Walker.

As for Palpy, remember "unlimited poweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeer!"? I don't really care what that visual guide says, he still makes the universe worse, his actions across the movies and the EU show him gathering power for power's sake, he corrupts everything he touches, he betrays the Republic, betrays Darth Vader as soon as he is beaten, lies about what happened to his wife to mentally break him, allows the genocide of Alderan, kills people through slow methods to maximise slaves, takes the survivor's of Alderan to his planet, which mentally eats away their will, amongst a laundry list of attrocities.

Okay, fine.

However, his having the Peace Sentinels hunt down the FSLN does not further the Peace Walker project, nor was the Peace Sentinels (under what was implied to be his command) continuing the drug trade to America after taking over the coffee and banana plantations/drug facilities furthering the Peace Walker project, either. In fact, when Huey was outlining the Peace Walker project, not once was it even implied that shipping drugs was part of the plan, so he didn't limit his evil to the Peace Walker project. Besides, his planning to have himself die before he divulged the abort code is also not going to further the Peace Walker project either. If it was indeed the intention to find out and prove that MAD was the problem, then he would have at the very least supplied the abort code to Strangelove, if not tell divluge it to MSF so that, in case he really did turn out to be wrong with MAD, they could put an end to it and thus redeem himself.

BTW, for the record, I personally think that Weil, Volgin and Palpatine are irredeemable complete monsters, but I was just trying to point out the flaws in the argument of "they had altruistic intentions/they genuinely believed they were doing the right thing, therefore they aren't complete monsters."

edited 11th May '12 6:50:51 AM by EJO1