During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Foreign Troper
Eredin is a very funny case, as he only qualifies when you combine his appearances in the books and the games. In the books, he has the personality and his motives explained, but lacks the on-screen deeds, he also doesn't really appear as a Big Bad of his own, he and Ava'lach are presented as more or less a Big Bad Duumvirate and their King Auberon also isn't presented in the best light. Bottomline, in the books Eredin doesn't really appear that often and has no encounters whatsoever with Geralt (his Arch-Enemy in the games). In the games, he has the deeds, but lacks any visible personality and further explained motivation.
And yeah, saying that 'nobody read' the Witcher books is kinda....speaking for yourself?
edited 23rd May '17 11:03:50 PM by Forenperser
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Messenger from another dimension.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Eredin is very similar to Krennic who also only counts if you combine Catalyst' and Rogue One. He doesn't have enough deeds in either of them but has enough when you combine them. I think that the heinous standard will evolve and someday we will sadly have to cut him.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Kwodahn... funny name
Not so long ago now I proposed this character for this thread, not knowing that I left out a lot of his details. I made sure to ask someone who is a "pro at C Ms" first if I could repropose him, and here I am. Evil from The Legendary Starfy.
Who is Evil and what does he do?
Evil (or Iburu if you prefer the original Japanese) is the Greater-Scope Villain of the first three Starfy games. Despite only appearing properly in person near the end of the third game, he has a large impact on the game's plot and, in retrospect, the other two games. Before I get into Evil/Iburu's personal crimes, though, I'd like to talk about his treatment of his subordinate.
Ogura
Ogura is seemingly the Big Bad of the first two games, and secondary Big Bad of the third (thanks to evil). I'm going to detail his backstory and why it's important to Evil/Iburu, and how this character is central to Evil/Iburu's status as a CM.
At a young age, Ogura was seemingly enslaved by Evil/Iburu. We don't get much backstory on this or why he does this. Ogura remains loyal to Evil/Iburu throughout his arc. Slightly into the future, Ogura ends up getting in a fight with the main character's father. He loses, and this causes Ogura to be trapped in a jar, with no escape, for several years. By the events of the first game, he's been released from the jar due to Starfy clumsily dropping the jar into the ocean. Throughout the events of the first game, Starfy meets an old man/lobster who fought with Ogura with Starfy's dad that time (but you don't find this out until a flashback of Ogura's until the third game). He explains Ogura to Starfy. Eventually by the end of the first game Ogura is fought in a different form, Altered Ogura. In the third game, we find out that when in this form, he is in great pain. Evil/Iburu gives him this form but has no reason to make it painful for him. He does it For the Evulz… he doesn't deserve it. Eventually he's trapped back in the jar.
In the second game, Ogura finally realizes he's an asexually reproducing sea slug, and produces ten children to help him escape the jar. He cares for his children. He then kidnaps Starfy's mum. Throughout the game you fight Ogura's kids, and, in the third game yet again, you discover that you killed them all. We also see in the third game that this is very upsetting to Ogura. In the final battle he becomes Altered Ogura again, and he's put back in the jar again, and it's all good again… until the third game, where Evil/Iburu properly comes into the story.
Evil Himself
He starts off by permanently destroying Ogura's jar. You might ask why he keeps saving Ogura, if he likes him then he can't be a CM, right? He doesn't. Think of this relationship less like Bowser and Bowser Jr. and more like Vader and Palpatine. Evil saving Ogura is pure Pragmatic Villainy. Ogura escapes, trying not to be late to Evil, and as per the other two games you have to go after Ogura. Throughout this game you see a lot of little cutscenes delving into Ogura's psyche, and what he thinks of the events of the past two games. He reminisces about the fight with Starfy's dad, sees some people who remind him of his deceased children, making him angry, and finally returns to Evil.
Evil's acts in the game itself are not exactly the be all end all, but he commits some heinous acts and says some very heinous things. The first time you see Evil, when he's not talking to Ogura, is when he's talking to another one of his minions, the dad of one of the side characters. This side character is a heavy case of The Woobie: his parents had a falling out a long time ago, causing them to split and for his mother to move to a smaller household with him and his three siblings. Eventually his mother dies of an illness and the character has to take care of his siblings on his own. His dad works for Evil in the present day. Like Vader.
Evil makes an attempt to execute this side character for refusing to accept his offer of We Can Rule Together. He sees through his lies. Evil attempts to blast him with lightning, but the father takes the blow for him and sadly dies. Evil doesn't show any remorse, regret, or care for killing his minions inadvertently. He moves on from this quite quickly, actually. This is the first truly heinous act you see proper, (the Ougra stuff is NOT Offscreen Villainy, it is talked about and explained and the effects on Ogura are shown thoroughly throughout the game. Ogura has essentially been indoctrinated into working for Evil at a young age. Like Vader.
The first time you properly see Evil and he talks to you is near the final battle of the game. After you fight Ogura in his Altered form again, he seemingly perishes, and Evil casts him away as he is no longer of use to him. After you defeat Ogura, before you fight Evil, Evil says:
You look like a spitting image of that one person from that time!
This line implies a lot, but the first thing that comes to mind is that Evil also fought Starfy's dad once. I won't dwell on this because it relies on speculation and Fridge, but it's interesting.
After you defeat his first form, a watery shadow demon thingy, he says this.
So like that, that thing, being mighty me at the apex of my power? It can't be that way, isn't it? To put the power of your attack into perspective... To my iron body, you could inflict damage just ONCE. Now! Crawl out of that hole already and reach my corporeal source! Witness my real appearance, the lot of you, as you see hell!
Esentially Evil has just transformed into what apparently is his 'true form', an Eldritch Abomination Creepy Awesome blue bat thing with wings and a jetpack (aren't those two a bit redundant?) This is That One Boss, but that doesn't impact his heinousness. For the final attack on you in this fight, Evil sends a meteor down to crush you, as a last resort. He fails, but even this isn't enough to finish off Evil, as you need 42 Evil Crystals to, and you have 41 at this point.
This leads into the game's ending, the end of a trilogy.
The final dialogue cements Evil's status as a CM. Evil delivers a speech about how you and the other characters are weaklings. He claims he's going to dominate the universe, and how Starfy's home civilization now belongs to him. One of the characters cries, worried about the fate of the world.
But here comes Ogura. Ogura pulls out the last Evil Crystal, at the last second. After being cast away by Evil after Ogura was defeated, Evil claiming he was no longer of use to him, proving that he does not truly care for Ogura, this causes Ogura to finally pull a Heel–Face Turn after the things Evil's done. He uses the Evil Crystal, which is also where Ogura gets his power from, to finish off Evil once and for all.
Ogura's final lines are as follows.
"Stafy...You're really... one heroic righteous fellow..." "You kids... and me... have been fighting amongst ourselves so many times... Your heroism... And friendship... and... pure heart... they moved me... brought me life... For everything... I'm really,... Sorry... "Starfy... You're so lucky...you're blessed with such wonderful friends and family.''
This is a sharp contrast to anything Evil says and does, and it shows that, despite fighting him under Evil's orders, Ogura always held a deep respect for Starfy not made obvious to anyone. We can tell from this dialogue that Ogura always hated being under Evil's rule.
The heinous standard
Evil passes the baseline for the standard. That much is obvious. He does horrible things, with zero regard for other lifeforms, even ones that have been loyally with him such as Ogura. Whether he passes the series' heinous standard? I think against Mashtooth then he still counts. Mashtooth's evil is on a slighlty larger scale. Mashtooth wished for nothing but ultimate power, and would kill anything in his way (we see this), but Evil also wishes for the complete and utter domination of the universe, and cares not one bit about anything except fufilling his sadistic goals.
Evil is not Made of Evil. We do not see sufficient evidence for this, despite his name being Evil, and he commits his actions under a full moral agency. He simply doesn't care about anyone but himself.
He is also NOT a Generic Doomsday Villain. His dialogue at certain points borders on Evil Is Hammy and, for sure, he takes pleasure in comitting these acts. He has a lot of personality for a villain called Evil, enough at least to keep him out of GDV territory.
Evil is very similar to Palpatine. He uses lightning, is a Bigger Bad only appearing in the third instalment proper, and esentially enslaved a child. Evil might not quite reach the level of Palpatine, no not at all (that's tough for any villain) but they are similar in a multitude of ways.
I have proposed Evil before. But last time, I rushed it, and missed out his most heinous actions due to not studying the character enough. But now? I can say that Evil (or Iburu if you prefer the original Japanese) is a .
On another note, man the discussion for the Arrowverse this year is going to be interesting... can't wait for that.
edited 24th May '17 12:19:39 AM by MahStache
Speaking of Eredin there's an element that should be added to his entry. Namely that he enslaved Geralt and forced him to commit numerous atrocities before Geralt broke away.
Basically he decided to get to Ciri by targeting Yenn and Geralt, abducting Yenn from their refuge. Geralt tracked them down and secured Yenn's freedom by offering his soul in exchange. Eredin accepted the deal and promptly brainwashed Geralt (in Witcher 2 he's described as a "rider" of the hunt, implying that Eredin had him directly take part in atrocities.) And he did it all to smoke Ciri out and claim her.
Personally I think it's cruel enough and in turn I think the games should have dwelt with it more. Say that after Geralt looses consciousness when the boat to Skellige sinks, we get a flashback of his time with the hunt. Eredin and Geralt chat (Which gives us more of Eredin's motivation and fleshes him out.) We see him forcing Geralt to abduct humans for servitude.
So with the new evidence for Evil and having reviewed the EP beforehand, I think I'm comfortable saying yea to Evil here. He probably has just enough on his hands to pass here.
Avatar by Leafsnake
Hey y'all. Hope the summer is going good.
I'm here to contest Director Kakuzawa from Elfen Lied. I'm surprised he went through seeing as he was shot down the first time. In the manga he does have a Pet the Dog moment.
So of his family his daughter was the one who wanted to be useful to him. She agreed to undergo a number of experiments to boost her intelligence and give her the ability to analyze probability and predict the future. He did this and she became this massive fleshy monster that he kept under the facility and visits. After Lucy kills the Director and Anna's brother, she tries to attack Lucy, but Lucy splits her head open. Then we learn that this wasn't actually her head as the huge fleshy monster she had been turned into wasn't actually her. The Director couldn't go forward with the invasive procedure and instead had the operation make the fleshy monster grow around her, leaving her original form in tact and alive. When the manga ends Anna emerges from the cocoon and remembers the Director's last words to her about how he was considerate of her and not a cruel father. Lucy herself was surprised when she attacked the monster and found Anna still intact and noted that he probably did love his daughter after all.
Personally I think it's an unearned last minute bit of sympathy for a man who's gone above and beyond being a total piece of shit, but it is presented as his sole moment of humanity and it's the one time he did something selfless.
Messenger from another dimension.
Evil with new information
I recently did this write-up. See if it may fit.
- Darfur: The Janjaweed Commander is the blood - thirtsy leader of a supremacist militia responsible for the slaughter of hundreds, if not thounsands of Black African people in western Sudan. When he and his men arrive to a village, and after forcing six Western journalists and the African soldiers to leave, they begin to plunder and indiscriminately killing men, women and children. The Commander personally impales an infant on a bamboo stick and then has the mother gunned down after forcing her to watch the scene. As three journalists and an African captain tries to save the villagers, they're also killed. One of the journalist is burned alive as the Commander watches chuckling sadistically before shooting him. After burning the village to the ground the Commander moves on to continue his genocidal campaign across the region.
Evil, BTW
edited 24th May '17 3:51:56 AM by MovieFan2000
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
to Kwodahn and Iburu.
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
@DrPsyche: It's been more hectic that I thought it'd be, but I do not care. I'm not in college right now, and that is all that matters. As for Director Kakuzawa, that does sound mitigating, if only slightly. But I haven't seen the anime or read the manga so I can't confirm or deny how genuine this may or may not be.
Evil. Yeah, the new information seems clearer here.
I can tell you from experience, MahStache, that rushing an effortpost is not a good idea. This can easily lead to you missing information that could end up disqualifying the character you're proposing. Or, in a rare case of mine, it could lead to someone down-voting a character, then later someone else makes a more thorough effortpost, and then said character gets up-voted. That's actually what happened with A Wolf Among Us and Outlast. It also helps to go back and re-read or review or replay, etc., whatever game/comic/book/movie said character you're proposing is from to refresh your memory.
Anyone wanna comment on Broderick Bazin?
to Kwodahn and Evil. Need to think about Bazin, not sure he qualifies even though he doesn't have many resources. It also sounds like Kakuzawa should be cut, though admit to not being familiar with the series.
Lizzid people!
That honestly doesn't sound mitigating at all; he still has no problem with experimenting on his own daughter.
Also, we're talking about him from the anime, not the manga, I believe.
Yea to Evil, btw.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Nobody counts for Criminal Minds season 12, at least going off the wiki. If someone wants to watch the eps and make the case for Lindsey Vaughn (who seemingly DID care for Cat Adams) or Cat herself, feel free.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
No, I do believe these are events exclusive to the manga (anime!Kakuzawa had virtually no screentime). I really have no issue cutting Kakuzawa, honestly.
I trust Psyche way more than Witch of the Absolute. I concur.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
The original effortpost, FWIW. Wasn't the user banned at least once? Well, take that as you will.
The post was made by an accountant of Witch, a serial ban evader a dozen times over. She, in no uncertain terms, has an extremely weak grasp of how this trope works and has a tendency to harass anyone who disagrees with her (calling Ambar a rape apologist for disagreeing with her on a candidate from two bloody years back, for instance).
Lizzid people!
Evil, btw.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Oh, God...Anyone know how much Kakuzawa appears in the anime?
Lizzid people!
I don't really remember him appearing appearing that much.
edited 23rd May '17 10:15:52 PM by Overlord