During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Dude, seriously? Those episodes haven't even officially came out yet. At least spoiler tag your words.
As much as I want to talk about those Steven Universe episodes, why not keep any discussion off this page in general? After all, quite a few people don't have spoiler tags toggled. I wouldn't mind chatting about it in PM's, but can we PLEASE do a better job at not dropping spoilers bombshells in this tread?
edited 17th Jan '17 10:06:21 PM by FriedWarthog
Yes. I apologize for that.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
To Comandant and Karcaz
Well just came from my 1st day of my 2nd semester of my sophomore year in college and right I feel exhausted...
Before I go to bed however I just found two candidates from a movie called Revenge of the Green Dragons that might make the cut. Before I talk about them Let me tell you the work.
What's The Work?
Revenge of the Green Dragons is a 2014 crime drama taking place in 1980s New York and An immigrant named Sonny (Chon) joined the titular Chinatown gang "The Green Dragons" when he was a kid along with his brother and best friend Steven, and worked his way up through the gang hierarchy. But as he quickly rose up the ranks and became notorious in the community, his life falls apart around him. Now Sonny and Steven aren't the ones I'll be talking about because they do care for each other and have sympathetic motives, but actually the lead enforcers of the gang, Ah Chung and Chicken Wing.
Now lets start with Ah Chung.
Who Is He? What Has He Done?
Ah Chung serves as The Heavy of the film, The lead enforcer of the violence and chaos caused by the gang and the one who corrupts Sonny and Steven when they were kids into becoming cold-blooded killers for his gang.
After finding the child Steven being tortured by Chicken Wing (we'll get to that later) he and his boss Paul Wong decides to recruit him to the gang and Chung himself later goes on to recruit Sonny. He first kickstarts their corruption by ordering them to kill a group of people that owes him money. Steven tries to pull this off but failed and was about to be killed himself before Sonny saves him and kills said group.
It only gets worse from there where Chung takes him and his gang and leads a killing spree against several rival gangs as well as innocents so long they are not white. He also has a member of a rival gang tortured to death which included cutting off his fingers and pulling out his teeth before shooting him to death.
When Steven told him about his uncle, he decides to break in to the uncle's house and rob him of his money. When he finds some money hidden from him he orders Chicken Wing to rape his daughter and force the old man and his wife to watch.
Steven accidentally kills a white man, Ah is furious but only because how much the cops will investigate him compared to the Asian victims and how much scrutiny it will bring his gang. When he and his gang do make it out unscathed he decides to murder Steven the boy he molded into becoming a loyal gang member without any remorse whatsoever and throws his corpse into the garbage.
It was this and the murder of his love interest that ultimately turns Sonny against the gang
Freudian Excuse? Redeeming Qualities?
None.
We don't know how and why he joined the Green Dragons but it is clear he doesn't really care about the gang or his boss and only joined to exert power over others and enjoy their suffering.
He does have a rule on not shooting white people, but that is not because he cares for any of them and trust me he doesn't, but because of the publicity and police attention it brings.
As for Steven and Sonny the boys he has corrupted its clear that he views them as nothing more as tools as shown when one of them, Steven, has put him in a situation of being arrested, after they get out of said situation Ah just stabs him to death.
Basically it is clear that the only person he gives a damn about is himself.
Heinousness
As The Heavy he sets it. he corrupts children into killers, commits mass murder, tortures a rival gang member to death has an innocent woman raped, and murders one of his own.
While the Big Bad is his boss Paul, he doesn't to much that particularly stands out other than kill Sonny's Love Interest and help the Greater-Scope Villain smuggle illegal immigrants and said G.S.V doesn't appear much nor does anything onscreen.
Thus allows Ah Chung to set the heinous standard.
Now... for the next proposal Chicken Wing
Who Is He? What Has He Done?
Chicken Wing serves as The Dragon to Ah Chung and surprisingly manages to stand out on his own.
When he is first introduced he is seen beating an innocent man in a bathroom to death for no reason other than he could. When Child Steven comes in use the bathroom and notices them, Chicken Wing forces Steven to SHIT on the man while he is still alive before delivering the killing blow. He then takes Steven, ties him up, beats him to a pulp, and was about to castrate him before Ah Chung and Paul Wong show up to recruit him.
Chicken Wing also takes part in the mass killings caused by Ah Chung showing utter glee while doing so and actually give Ah Chung the idea of torturing said rival gang member to death.
Chicken Wing also part takes in Ah Chung's robbing Steven's uncles and when order to rape the Uncle's daughter he gladly does. He also rapped the Uncles wife on his own accord and takes her panties as a trophy and actually show this to Steven bragging about it and rubbing it in his face.
Finally, when he that gang got away from the incident caused by Steven, he forces his brother Sonny to watch as Steven gets killed by Ah Chung.
Freudian Excuse? Redeeming Qualities
A BIG FAT NOTHING!
Like Ah Chung, we don't know why he joined the Green Dragon other that to hurt people he is especially more open in his drive to hurt simply For the Evulz.
He doesn't really show any loyalty to his boss or his gang and would gladly for for someone else if it meant he could hurt more people.
In short he is a Sadistic Psychotic Fuck and dead ringer for a Middle Eye Expy.
Heinousness
As said he manages to stand out on his own despite his boss being a piece of work himself. He beats people to death forces a kid to shit on one of his victim, beat him up nearly castrated him, killed innocents, and raped women.
Final Verdict
Overall I say Ah Chung and Chicken Wing both get an from me. What about you guys?
edited 17th Jan '17 11:38:52 PM by G-Editor
I think we should update alternate gul'dan since his arc finally ended with his death at Illidan's hands.
Chicken Wing is probably among the strangest named candidates who's ever come through here. Regardless, sounds like he's an easy yes. Chung sounds like a keeper as well.
Ah Chung and Chicken Wing
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
- Karzac (not a very Cuban name though
![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]")
).
- Ah Chung & Chicken Wing (what happens to them BTW?).
- YAM: Feel free to do a new rewrite for Alt!Guldan.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]")
Ah, I stand corrected. Well, in 2 weeks he can.
edited 18th Jan '17 5:29:54 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
No, LordYAM can't, because the fight against Gul'dan is only available since last night and the two weeks rule still applies.
to Karcaz, Ah Chung and Chicken Wing.
Found this on Carved
- Complete Monster: The Kuchisake-onna (ie the Slit Mouthed Woman) is worse than virtually any slasher you can name, for while they tend towards killing adults and strangely mature teenagers, the Kuchisake-onna specifically targets children to kidnap, mutilate, and murder, and does so by possessing random women, including their own mothers, and if that's not enough, she will spitefully beat them and anyone who gets in her way on top of that. She mainly gets away with it because she's in a film where no one can seemingly throw a punch.
and The Mutilator
- Complete Monster: Big Ed. Unlike virtually every slasher villain, there's no mask, no hideous deformity, no teenagers walking into his territory, no campfire story that turns out to be true. Just a clearly already mentally unhinged man (based on how he reacted when his wife was shot) slowly letting the darkness within him grow for years and years before he finally completely snaps and calls up his son to murder him. When his son brings some friends, Ed brutally, viciously murders/tries to murder all of them too. The sheer psychotic coldness and sadism of his deeds, especially considering his main fantasy was killing his OWN SON, bring to mind more the likes of Richard Speck than Jason Voorhees.
and The Chronicles of Magravandias
- Complete Monster: All the other characters make this claim about Bayard. Considering he not only does horrible things, he has zero remorse about it, they're not wrong. Even his own mother, who claims him for a favorite son, knows that he's a monster and tells him this to his face. Even Varencienne, who used to adore him, turns away from him when she learns what he is.
and Ciel nosurge
- Complete Monster: Revelt is unequivocally regarded as one as he kept topping his atrocity as the story goes on. Details on his role in Ciel Nosurge are available below (major spoilers incoming)
- He ordered the summoning of another extradimensional being while being fully aware of the dimensional strain that would greatly amplify the Wave Bursts that is razing the planet Ra Ciela, despite the Interdimend and ES45 Cathode was readily available at that time. As if that wasn't enough, said summoning was performed with Ra Ciela's moon as the sacrifice for the energy needed for the summoning and his daughter Ionasal's body as the vessel for said extradimensional being, with Ion's original soul were slated for disposal, all for the unrestrained access to the Oversight that is needed for the Grand Phoenix Project, which itself was a repeat of the migration to another planet with Ra Ciela as the sacrifice.
- Later on, he decided to have Ion being re-educated (read:brainwashed) into a Tenmon loyalist, and when that plan was foiled by his own daughter Renall, he faked his suicide to pour the Sharl Purging Solvent into the Flask liquid to cause another Cielnotron Panic and framed Renall for the ensuring chaos.
- His cruelty take a new height in Chapter 11 when he forces Nero, Renall and Zill into executing the Grand Phoenix Project to his own ends. First he had Nero restrained upon retrieval and delivers an absolutely scathing speech to her right before forcibly activating her Oversight to locate the new planet. Then he plans to have Renall to be sacrificed for the transmigration and forced Zill to sing the song to transmigrate him and his chosen people at gunpoint, leaving the rest of the residents of Ra Ciela to their ill-fated planet. Furthermore, his Evil Gloating had caused Cosal and Zill to harbor hatred towards humans, and while Kanoyeel, Cosal and Clacket had managed to foil the migration, they perished when the Tron has overloaded and the planet's crust being gouged out, inflicting world-ending disasters to the planet.
edited 18th Jan '17 6:07:11 AM by Silverblade2
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Cut, PM the tropers. The first 2 at least seem bad enough.
My analysis for Revelt from Ciel nosurge
- Actions: Already explained by Silverblade 2's submission.
- Relationships: He had two daughters, both from different spouses. He only considered Renall as his daughter until she tried to pull a coup against him, while Renall's mother was killed by him with Genoms as proxy, according to Renall and was implied as such within the in-game glossary. As for his other daughter, her soul was removed from body so it could be given to a little girl from another dimension.
- Justification: What little justification he had for that was that he rediscovered the lost knowledge about how Nero transferred them all to Ra Ciela, claiming that their sun would take 5000 years to recover either way. That, and he really hated Genoms... long before they killed his wife.
- No regret: He had gone past that the instant Renall "betrayed" him. Not to mention that he still wins in the end as he took Kanon, Cosal and Clacket along with him to the grave, and Grand Phoenix Project had to be carried out because the planet is now in immediate danger of being completely inhabitable.
- Redemption: He acts like a lunatic scientist-new world visionary through and through. He gets a world of cardboard speech from Clacket in the end but they both perished before he get a word of reply in.
- Final Verdict: He is by far the most terrible villain in Surge Concerto series by leaps and bounds, so much that none of the villains in Ar tonelico comes anywhere close to him. Him being considered as a "complete monster" is rightly deserved.
edited 19th Jan '17 3:42:14 AM by himmelicht
A total has-been.
So, you going to effort post him?
That was an effortpost by technicality. To be fair, though, I think we're going to need a lot more information. Especially on the setting.
Now, I've been looking a bit further into Anne and Providence from Bravely Second. Anne's a bitch, but I don't think she reaches quite the level Airy did in the first game. Providence is a bit of a different story and I think this boils down to one really weird question... how the hell do we measure something like explicitly trying to destroy thousands of worlds against a metafictional act like trying to delete the player's save file? Providence seems mostly relegated to attempting to destroy one version of Luxendarc throughout the story instead of the all-out chaos Ouroboros was aiming for - albeit, Providence's plot for that is a particularly nasty one - but I'm not sure how to really measure Providence's one fourth wall-breaking action as compared to Ouroboros' attempted omncidide. Would erasing the player's save file sort of constitute as trying to erase reality in-universe (especially seeing as the player is remarked as a being that exists "beyond space and time") or?...
It's a Mind Screw of a candidate and its a question I'd like answered before I go ahead with a potential effortpost.
edited 18th Jan '17 9:01:47 AM by Scraggle
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Hmm...um...well...I GUESS trying to delete the player's save file would be like a Class Z?
The Unknown Unknown
I'll give as much context as I can give here... within the story proper, the player is a godlike entity that transcends space and time that controls the heroes to defend the world of Luxendarc. Their existence is implied is Default and made clear as all hell in Second when Lord Providence directly talks to the player in the final battle. As a move of spite... Providence ousts control from the player character and forces them to watch as he tries to literally erase the game's save file. This on its own is definitely treated as a heinous action, but since the existence of a save file goes beyond the existence of just a multiverse or so and goes into full-on metaphysical territory, I'm not sure how to measure that against Ouroboros' more simple "attempted multiversal destruction" and it's not made terribly clear how erasing the save file would affect the in-game universe. The most obvious answer to go to is that erasing the save file erases the in-world universe in the process.
But again... I'm still not sure how to measure an action like that against Ouroboros' attempted omnicidal agenda. Do we call this a sort of class Z apocalypse as ACW said (as glossing through that page, the nature of that trope is necessarily metafictional) or...?
edited 18th Jan '17 9:58:20 AM by Scraggle
The Unknown Unknown
Maybe Class Z?
I mean, if it affects the word in-universe and is treated seriously, I don't see why it shouldn't count. Sure, Ouroboros is much more simplified, but this doesn't change the fact Lord Providence is doing something, when looked at simplistically, measures up to (or even exceeds) Ouroboros's deed.
From an insider's point of view, he's basically destroying reality.
edited 18th Jan '17 10:11:33 AM by erazor0707
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
Found this on Bokurano page:
- The manga version of Morihiro Hatagai seduces his girlfriend's middle school aged sister, convincing her that he loves her, only to then have her gang-raped. He then blackmails her into staying silent, while he moves on to his next target. His motivation, beyond ephebophilia, is the sick thrill that he gets out of hurting her, while knowing that her family continues to trust him. He may not have been an alien, or the operator of a Humongous Mecha, but when it comes to being just plain disgusting, no one else in the manga comes close.
I know this has been discussed before but i haven't really see the discussion reaching any conclusion.
![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
edited 18th Jan '17 10:58:09 AM by NNinja
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Wow, by that standard, I'm not sure either. Especially if the freaking protagonist tried to rape someone.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Hatagai's given me suspicion for a while and he looks like a cut with this in mind. Any other comments on that?
Lizzid people!
Not really. Doesn't seem to stand out.
ACW: Ah Chung and Chicken Wing both get arrested in the end along with the Greater-Scope Villain. Only Paul Wong is a Karma Houdini but he doesn't count so thats alright I guess...
So far I have only 4 for them, I need a couple more to do their write ups
Ah Chung and Chicken Wong
