During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Elijah
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Isn't Captain N a comedy show?
Messenger from another dimension.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Elijah.
I remember Captain N as being a typical 80s cartoon, an action cartoon with a lot of comedic elements to it (the villains are typical incompetent 80s cartoon villains, though they tried to make some of the villains menacing, like Ganon.) I wouldn't say it was a straight up comedy, though major characters like Simon Belmont got dumbed down for comedic effect. I'm sure the fan fiction is "Darker and Edgier" and we have had Nintendo villains count as monsters before and hey at this they are trying to make an established villain into a CM. I guess I'm not sure if it as a good setting for a monster or not.
edited 7th Nov '15 10:19:32 AM by Overlord
I'd give it a read to check, but I have a policy against reading fanfic of works I'm not a fan of.
Not sure about the Annhilator, he was certainly dangerous, and pretty sadistic (he's introduced trying to suck the life out of a fifteen year old for the fun of it) and his big plan was wholesale slaughter, for no reason other than he enjoyed it. But really I don't think he got far enough with his plan to qualify.
Really if Victor Krane (who was even more sociopathic and got a lot further with his mad plans) doesn't qualify, I don't think he should.
Actually his reason was that he was angry at the world because he was ostracized as a kid for having powers. Now, I made all the arguments I could for him, plus I have a personal one re-evaluation limit (if there's a reason they don't count the second or third time you bring them up, there's probably good reason they don't count).
Now, the Disney Channel can have CM's - it already has three in Vice Principal Stern Frakes and the Huntsman. However, Lab Rats and Mighty Med are set in the Disney Channel Live Action Universe; the same universe as Hannah Montana, Good Luck Charlie etc - a universe known for being comedic 70% of the time. So it's unlikely Victor Krane and the Annihilator are gonna count seeing as they are in sitcom universes, even with their high attempted bodycounts.
Now if I wanted to beat a dead horse, I could continue to argue why I think the Annihilator counts, but I've seen enough arguments to see why he doesn't, and I just explained another. I could link you the last episode where his Taking You with Me is played for drama, but he does has his laughably evil moments do to it being a sitcom. I still personally think he counts, but I'll shut up about it now.
That all said, I'm reminded of Suburban Knights having a CM in Malachite even though it's 95% comedy, and that includes Malachite, who's actions and character are played strait, still has his comedic moments.
edited 7th Nov '15 2:06:45 PM by Beast
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
There's also Krane actually having competition to compete with (Pre Heel–Face Turn Douglas, Giselle, Troy) who also have have high attempted body counts.
My issue with cutting Father Elijah is that his master plan would have involved killing everyone in the Mojave Wasteland, and when he talks of his new world order he intends to place slave collars on every person to "ensure compliance." There's no reason to believe Veronica would have been exempt from either fate. Once Veronica receives Elijah's message to her, which we never even find out what's exactly inside, she flat out states that the man she knew as her mentor has long since died. Elijah once had affection for Veronica, but the man we meet in the Dead Money expansion has long since thrown away that last bit of humanity to fulfill his goals and "wipe the slate clean." By that point in time, he has fully descended to Complete Monster status.
edited 7th Nov '15 3:01:46 PM by LoreDeluxe
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
As fucked up as Baron Kelvin is, should we remove him? He seems to legitimately love Ciel, and when he hears about his believed death, is devastated by it.
edited 7th Nov '15 3:50:15 PM by Awesomekid42
I've covered this. He really, really doesn't. He had a sickening obsession with him, there's a difference. In fact, he wanted to go attend Ciel being sacrificed and got depressed because he couldn't.
I mainly suggested it because he found out and got depressed over Ciel's believed death before he even found out about the sacrifice.
Still, that's true. Nevermind then.
I have another question, if there is a video game, where the player character can choose to do really good things or really evil things, does that ruin the heinious standard for the villains, if the player can potentially make the main character into a vile psychopath?
...you know that's a very good question. Have we ever encountered this situation?
I think in the Infamous games, where the protagonist can be very good it very bad, depending on the players karma meter.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
A total has-been.
Dr. Mashirito. Abstaining on on Elijah.
Also, Baron Kelvin seems to have the Volgin sort of obsession with having someone to "love" (read: dominate) without actually truly loving them.
Okay, with three I believe ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
for Aside, I'll put up a write up for him and see if such can get the last remaining approvals.
- In Turningcolors, most of the antagonists are canon characters, who generally were while rather heinous humanized in some ways. Most of the original character antagonists similarly. That is...except for one named Mr. Aside. A European Terrorist and product of a Super-Soldier program, Mr. Aside proved so malevolent and dangerous that even the expy of Ribbons Almark in charge of the UNLE, the group in charge of said program, threw him out after failing to get rid of him decisively. Aside promptly turned his attention to Britannia and sold his services and abilities to government after government facing attack by The Empire, only to grab as much weapons technology and money as he can and run right when things start to look bleak. This leaves the people in these countries to face stiffer retribution by the Britannians because they hired Mr. Aside. And its more than inferred he knows this. His Establishing Character Moment is his first - that is, he attacks a school in session and tries to kidnap an alumni just because he wanted more weapons technology. He later firebombed an entire section of Tokyo to cover for seizing three Knightmares he needed to create the devastating 1-Tachyon, which he later used with impunity to see his chaotic ends fulfilled. When he updated to the 2-Tachyon, his murderous rampage escalated even further - starting with blasting an entire fleet of airships carrying a Britannian royal lady fleeing the Black Rebellion to ashes, and then killing someone close to Lelouch purely so as to see how Zero would react. Likewise, it is telling that his reaction to Suzaku's murderous rage at Euphemia's death is delighted approval, and wishing he'd always be like this. For Aside, Chaos and destruction aren't by products - they're ends unto themselves.
edited 7th Nov '15 5:29:46 PM by NickTheSwing
Captain of USS Bajor
I need to disqualify Jamie Moriarty of Elementary (currently listed on YMMV.Elementary) as a Complete Monster due to use of Even Evil Has Loved Ones in a season two episode. She breaks out of US custody in order to rescue her illegitimate daughter (who doesn't even know her because Moriarty gave her up for adoption out of safety concerns) from kidnappers who meant to use her as blackmail.
edited 7th Nov '15 5:39:13 PM by StarSword
Didn't we already ?
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Captain of USS Bajor
Might have, but she's still listed on the YMMV page. I'll kill the example.
Captain of USS Bajor
Ok, ACW claims in an edit note she was never brought up in the thread.
EDIT: It seems ACW has repeatedly added her in defiance of the comment and rules, and ignoring the disqualification rationale above.
edited 7th Nov '15 5:44:56 PM by StarSword
Captain of USS Bajor
Looking back, it seems Moriarty was originally approved based on the season 1 portrayal alone, which I agree would normally qualify her, but it ignores the season 2 Even Evil Has Loved Ones thing.
edited 7th Nov '15 5:53:32 PM by StarSword
Is her character arc done?
Captain of USS Bajor
I honestly lost track of the series' storyline midway through season two, but digging through IMDB, it looks like she's done. She was a major background presence in season 1 but her last actual appearance was "The Diabolical Kind" (the Even Evil Has Loved Ones thing). Since then she's really only sent the odd love letter (for lack of a better term: there's a definite Foe Romance Subtext going on) to Sherlock from prison.
ETA: Looking at the episode transcript (scroll to near the end), it also seems she's turning into a little less of a total-monster-but-for-one-thing. Sherlock's letters back have apparently had a bit of an influence: she left her guards alive when she broke out:
->Sherlock: You could have killed Agent Mattoo. And from your perspective, it would have been the expedient thing.
Moriarty: And yet, to you, it would have been repugnant.
edited 7th Nov '15 6:09:55 PM by StarSword
I was just wondering if any of the villains from say DC Universe Online can be monsters, a game where the main character can be a played as a total psycho if the player decides to join the villain side.
It seems like someone listed Ganon in a Captain N Fanfiction as a CM:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/YMMV/TheNewCaptainN
You know on the surface, this example doesn't break any of our rules about fan fiction, but the example provides very little context on why Ganon is a monster in this work.