During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
True, but a bad finale can ruin a show (hello Lost).
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
There's always Fanon Discontinuity. Also, to me a bad finale doesn't ruin a show, only the writer's perspective on the show and what direction they wanted to take it.
Edited by Kookosbanaani on Jun 2nd 2019 at 11:31:37 AM
Well Qyburn conspired with Cersei to blow up the Scept and made the Mountain her mindless servant, but yeah, that's all not enough. Anything the Mountain/Gregor did while zombified was an extension of them and not himself.
Jaime's ending was certainly not ideal, but I wasn't deeply offended by it. Yeah, Euron did prove to be inconsequential and I know that was the idea, but pointless on purpose is still pointless. Again, not offended though.
@ACW The finale of HIMYM didn't ruin the show, but I definitely prefer to remember the alternate ending as the real one instead. Breaking Bad and The Middle (LEXL FOREVER!) nailed their endings perfectly. Suburgatory's ending probably wasn't meant to conclude the series, but I loved how unconventional an ending it was though. GoT certainly didn't stick the landing, but I've seen plenty of shows with No Ending, that I'll take an extremely far from perfect Bittersweet Ending over an incomplete or rushed Downer Ending anytime (hello, 666 Park Avenue).
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jun 2nd 2019 at 11:40:09 AM
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Having Seen the season myself, I don't think Eurons issue was lack of Personality. He has plenty of that(It's just that it's boring compared to his book self) , Eurons issue, for me is that he dosent Seem Bad enough with all the Competition.
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Belated writeup for The Bastard:
- 35mm: A Musical Exhibition: The Bastard is the horrifically abusive husband of the titular Luanne in the song "Leave Luanne". Raping and beating Luanne thanks to losing his job and mocking her for her suffering, even clearly enjoying it, he keeps Luanne married to him and forces her to endure the abuse every day. When Luanne escapes into the bog and dies, possibly by his hand, and returns as a ghost, he tells her that nobody ever loved her, before being subject to the same tortures he put her through.
I'll add it to drafts. It goes under theater, but there's no page for the musical itself.
Edited by Riley1sCool on Jun 2nd 2019 at 12:04:04 PM
He could have had enough potential to become what he is in the books but D&D just decided to leave him as a convenient plot device for Cersei to be used. Very disappointed that the show specifically used some of the foreshadowing elements of Book!Euron but none of them were utilized later on. Much like the sub-plot of Jon being Aegon Targaryen, it didn't make any difference in the end.
Edited by Kookosbanaani on Jun 2nd 2019 at 12:03:10 PM
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Agree with Kylo. Show!Euron has a personality, just not a CM worthy personality.
Now, I will change my Profile Pic, is safe to have one spoilerific Profile Pic of GOT now, right?
Edited by KazuyaProta on Jun 2nd 2019 at 2:05:07 PM
Watch me destroying my country
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
"Very disappointed that the show specifically used some of the foreshadowing elements of Book!Euron but none of them were utilized later on. "
That actually sounds alot like something I saw GRRM talk about in an Interview once. Talking about a story where the butler was the Killer, only for an Adaptation to change the story half way so someone else was the Killer. Thus all the foreshadowing and such are all dead ends.
I will say it's weird how in Eurons introduction he actually acts alot like His Book Counterpart. And then afterward just sort of Drops it and became a weird, Frat Boy pirate type.
And I don't see an Issue there @Kazuya. Especially sense, thanks to the fact the Complaints about season 8 has been something everyone and there mother has heard about, the...How should we say it Controversial Twists have already become It Was His Sled moments.
Edited by Kylotrope on Jun 2nd 2019 at 12:25:31 PM
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Gentle Laborer
Don't worry, we are already discussing spoilers anyway.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Oh, HT, please add Fenris to the Drafts as well.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
The Draftsman of Doom
Sounds like GOT was a disaster. Well, if it's any consolation to Kit Harington, he could always put asses in theater seats by playing an American Villain. I would pay to see that.
I saw clips of him as Kotch, and it was fun to watch.
I still don't have all the books in my to do list, so I suppose it'll be a while until I do another EP. I want to read each series to establish the heinousness standard.
Your friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Batch is on the previous page, BTW.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
The Draftsman of Doom
On second thought...
What is the work?
Trash Fire is a 2016 "black comedy" about a man named Owen Roberts, and his girlfriend Isabel Sullivan, and their attempt to reconnect with the former's family, specifically his grandmother, Violet, and his sister, Pearl. Owen is revealed to have survived a fire which killed his parents, and disfigured Pearl. Violet, it should be noted, is a religious fanatic who forces the lovers to sleep separately. But it turns out that her fanaticism does not end there.
Who is Violet Roberts and what does she do?
Violet at first seems like a stock religious shrike, calling her grandson's girlfriend a whore and whatnot, bad-mouthing her own daughter and son in law, and what have you. She turns out to be far worse.
At some point, Violet tampers with Owen's medication (Owen being epileptic), and goes to Pastor Sterling, where she claims to the latter that God himself told her to kill her grandchildren, and that not only did she burn down Owen's parents' house, she attempted to drive him to suicide by trying to convince him to blame himself. Sterling calls Violet delusional, and Violet states that if Sterling goes to the police, she will tell them about how Sterling molested her daughter at 15.
She steals Sterling's pet rattlesnake, puts it in the toilet in an attempt to murder Isabel. When this attempt is foiled, she makes Owen go under the house to check a pipe, while she tries and fails to start a fire that will kill him.
Later that night, Violet pulls a gun on Pearl while the latter is in bed, only to have Pearl pull a gun back at Violet, causing Violet to leave Pearl alone.
When Owen takes the tainted meds, he collapses, and Isabel cradles him, and then Violet walks into the room with her gun. She aims at Isabel, only to be shot by Pearl, who shoots Owen as well in what seems to be a mercy kill.
Freudian Excuse? Mitigating factors?
No Freudian Excuse is given. However, Violet's worst actions are offscreen. That said, the effects of those actions are shown onscreen. She does call out Pastor Sterling for molesting her daughter at 15, but this is less about standards or loved ones than it is about blaming Sterling for her killing her own daughter, as well as blackmailing Sterling into compliance.
Heinousness?
Sterling may be a one-time ephebophile, and Pearl may actually be the one to kill Owen, but Violet is horrifically abusive, and tries onscreen to kill her own family, and the effects of her offscreen villainy are shown in the form of the dialogue where Owen shows resentment for his grandmother, and when Pearl does not forgive Owen for leaving her with Violet.
Verdict?
I could go either way, but regardless, I think she is a truly disgusting example of an abuser.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Jul 14th 2020 at 5:57:24 AM
Your friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Violet.
Edited by falcontalons on Jun 2nd 2019 at 2:12:09 AM
to Violet.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I'll give a slight yes to Violet.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
to Violet.
Also, one thing on GOT I almost forgot to say. Its rather humorous that, with a show with such a high Heinous standard, the charachter who's arguably the most Heinous(The Night king, due to being an Omnicidal Maniac) Dosent qualify.
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Sure to Violet...
No comment on Go T though since I didn't follow it that much but I can understand your feelings regarding the finale.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Being Omnicidal Maniac isn't really the most heinous character trope. Sure, it's the most chaotic in terms of body count but Ramsay's knack for gratuitous torture and mind games is easily worse in terms of how utterly cruel that is.
Edited by Kookosbanaani on Jun 2nd 2019 at 2:27:25 AM
Foreign Troper
Alright, I did manage to get it all together for Supergirl Season 4. It was a great season, really. Nice themes, well-written heroes AND villains. Speaking of which, first the obvious non-qualifiers:
- Manchester Black, a brilliant re-invention of the character. He goes on a crusade against the Children of Liberty after his fiance is murdered, growing increasingly unhinged. A Shout-Out to Left-Wing Extremism.
- Agent Liberty aka Ben Lockwood. Horrible, HORRIBLE guy, probably the biggest Hate Sink of the entire series, being a racist jackass and all, but with a valid Freudian Excuse and loved ones. Also, just a patsy for Lex Luthor.
- President Donald Tr.....oh sorry I meant Phil Baker ; ) Yeah, clearly a reference to the dofus currently residing in the White House, Russian/Kaznian Collusion and all. But in the end, he is just another pawn of Luthor, and a pretty pathetic one too.
Now, I was originally gonna short-summarize the Big Bad of the Season too, since I don't think he qualifies, but I got some PM's and hey, why not a full effort-post again for a change. So, lets go, shall we?
Who is Lex Luthor and what has he done?
Oh, come on now. You know him, I know him. Lex Luthor, THE Arch-Enemy, THE Green-Eyed Monster, THE Bald of Evil. He is portrayed by Jon Cryer here and I gotta say, I really loved the mans performance, much more than Jesse Eisenberg's. But I'm digressing. Luthor was The Ghost for two whole seasons of the series, being mentioned to serve several life sentences for crimes against humanity. He is also mentioned to having been friends with Superman, initially the two worked together to repel the threat of alien invasions. However, Lex's methods were far crueler than Superman's, which set them at odds. Although Superman tried hard to trust his friend, defending him against the accusations of others and continuing to give him several chances to atone for his wrong deeds, they eventually had a falling out, which led to Lex bitterly hating the Man of Steel. Now determined to prove that Superman was the real villain of this story, claiming that his mere presence is whats causing so many threats on Earth, he went to insane lengths to destroy him, like creating Earthquakes, trying to mind control him and even somehow turning Earth's sun red, which naturally caused widespread destruction on the planet. Finally being apprehended, he was then put on trial, facing 31 life sentences. In an absolutely petty move, Lex snarkily retorts to make that 32, as he reveals to have fatally poisoned the entire courtroom. Followed me so far? Now this is all backstory! In Season 4, while in prison, he planned his big come-back, blackmailing the Warden into letting him meet up with the Kaznian government after they discovered a Supergirl clone. The clone, nicknamed "Red Daughter", is a completely innocent and well-meaning soul, whom Lex goes on to corrupt and manipulate, portraying himself as her friend while sowing hatred against America, as the Kaznian government plans to invade it. He even orders a False Flag Operation attack on the house of Red Daughter's young friend Mikhail to make her sufficiently motivated. Simultaneously, he also has his loyal henchmen Otis and Mercy Graves support Ben Lockwood in creating the xenophobic Children of Liberty as a distraction. After all preparations are finished, he goes back to prison....but not before giving himself cancer so that his sister Lena will take pity on him and allow him to visit her, supposedly one last time. While he is at the mansion with Lena, Eve Tessmacher (under his orders) shoots James Olsen in the back, which causes Lena to desperately try to create a safe version out of the kryptonian Harun-El serum to save him, even asking her brother for help. After Lena leaves, Lex remotely cuts off the backup power of the hospital where James is stationed (during the power outage caused by Manchester Black), forcing his sister to inject James with the Harun-El in order to save his life. Lena, realizing that she has been played with, confronts her brother, who confesses that he orchestrated all of this just to have his own personal human test subject for the Harun-El. Now cured, and worst of all, super-powered, he takes his leave. Afterwards, he lays low for a few episodes, but Red Daughter stages an attack on the White House on his orders, turning the public against Supergirl. When the Kaznian Invasion is about to begin, Lex is revealed to have planned to betray his allies all along, having President Baker under his thumb. He single-handedly destroys the invaders and takes out Red Daughter, portraying himself as a hero to the public. But that is only the first step: His real plan is to use all the aliens captured by the Children of Liberty (and Red Daugher too) as Living Battery's to power a Kill Sat aimed at Argo City, where Superman currently resides with Lois to safely raise his child. In other words: He is willing to commit genocide, all just to get back at his Arch-Enemy. Luckily, it all fails, with him barely getting out alive after a battle with Supergirl.....only for Lena to wait at him at his secret base, putting several bullets in him, as she`s had enough of him and his cruel games. With his dying breath, Lex reveals to her that Kara is Supergirl, mocking her emotional turmoil. ......and then the Monitor arrives, apparently taking his corpse away for some nefarious purposes, probably for the incoming Crisis.Heinous Standart
I think the above was a pretty good summary. Lex is willing to manipulate friends and family, start wars, even commit planetary genocide, all just to get back at his Arch-Enemy Superman and to prove that HE IS THE MAN OF TOMORROW! NOT HIM! NOT HIM!Redeeming qualities?
Now, this is what gives me a pause. Despite all of the above, for starters, it is mentioned and shown several times over that a huge reason of Lex being the way he is stems from a horrible childhood. His mother, Lillian Luthor, was a terribly abusive matriachial figure, who taught him that Love Is a Weakness. One story he recounts for example: Lex had a dog named Ignatius, whom he considered his closest companion. When Lex was 7 years old, Ignatius fell ill and had to be put down. Lex wanted to be present at the procedure, but Lillian felt that her son was too sentimental and forbade it, forcing him to go on a business trip with his father instead. Also, while it is a sick, twisted form of love, he does genuinely care for his sister. He also speaks in the highest tones of her mother (not Lillian), who was exceptionally kind to him, even comforted him about the death of his dog. Hell, he even seems to have some sort of affection towards his mother. He has both of them invited to the White House to celebrate his triumph and relents from killing them, even when Lillian is trying to poison him right then and there.Final Verdict
Honestly, just like the comics version, this version of Lex is a horrible, horrible person who sets a DAMN high new heinous standart, but he has JUST enough humanity in him that keeps him from qualifying, imO. So yeah, a![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
from me. Discuss!
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
The Draftsman of Doom
No to Lex Luthor.
No to the Lex. I thought he might have counted in D Ms but ultimately, Lex does seem to care about his Other mother despite all the horrible shit he's done. As you said, this may be the first year with zero arrowverse C Ms... but we'll see. Legends discussion will be interesting to say the least.
IMO he's one of the best live action Lexes though. Jon Cryer seemed like such a weird casting choice but hell did it pay off.
@xie323 Did you like the first 4-6 seasons at least? Because if you did, I wouldn't say that you wasted seven years watching the show. Few bad apples won't make the whole tree rotten.