To-do list:
- Move wicks for Main.Trope Decay to Administrivia.Trope Decay.
- * List the Playing with a Trope index as as sub-index of Trope Tropes via a floatbox, similarly to how Audience Reactions is listed as a sub-index of YMMV.Home Page via a floatbox on YMMV.Home Page, and limit listings for ways of playing with a trope to the sub-index. (The main Playing with a Trope page would still be indexed on Trope Tropes.)
- Sort the listings that are staying on Trope Tropes into separate folders (for example, listing pages like Forgotten Trope, Dead Horse Trope, Trope Makers, and related concepts in a folder for concepts related to trope life cycles, listing Pet-Peeve Trope, Favorite Trope, Older Than They Think, and related concepts in a folder about audience perceptions of tropes, listing Sister Trope, Sub-Trope, and Super-Trope, and related concepts in a folder for relationships between tropes, etc.).
I'd have put Misused, but since this is an index I think Needs Help is more fitting. Also, oldest version of the page on the Internet Archive
.
The problem: Trope Tropes is an index about "tropes about tropes", as the very short description mentions. Per the opening text:
Unfortunately, as the description alludes to, some of the listed entries do not fit this definition. Some, like Trope Decay, are suspected of being Administrivia pages in disguise, and others, like the actual Administrivia section, just don't seem to fit at all. One big problem is that some entries are about tropes and their use in wiki concepts, mistakenly put on this index. Quoting GastonRabbit:
Possible solution: I propose cleaning the index's individual entries via crowner, similar to what was done with Administrivia.No Straight Examples Please and Administrivia.Definition Only Pages. I also propose moving Trope Decay itself to Administrivia.
What does everyone else think? Any other ideas or suggestions?
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 13th 2023 at 1:17:58 PM
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I don't think Trope Namers counts as a Trope Trope because it's another thing that's about TV Tropes pages and not the concepts our pages are about. (Sometimes we do use preexisting terms, but not always.)
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 12th 2023 at 3:52:19 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Calling in favor of the following:
- Remove the Administrivia folder on Trope Tropes for being about site policies for trope pages, rather than meta concepts about the concepts our trope pages are for. If they are not already indexed on the main Administrivia index, they will be moved there.
- Move Trope Decay from the Main/ namespace to the Administrivia/ namespace for being about a site policy for trope pages, not a meta concept about the concepts our trope pages are for.
- Move Trope Decay from the Trope Tropes index to the Administrivia index for being about a site policy for trope pages, not a meta concept about the concepts our trope pages are for.
- List the Playing with a Trope index as as sub-index of Trope Tropes via a floatbox, similarly to how Audience Reactions is listed as a sub-index of YMMV.Home Page via a floatbox on YMMV.Home Page, and limit listings for ways of playing with a trope to the sub-index. (The main Playing with a Trope page would still be indexed on Trope Tropes.)
- Sort the listings that are staying on Trope Tropes into separate folders (for example, listing pages like Forgotten Trope, Dead Horse Trope, Trope Makers, and related concepts in a folder for concepts related to trope life cycles, listing Pet-Peeve Trope, Favorite Trope, Older Than They Think, and related concepts in a folder about audience perceptions of tropes, listing Sister Trope, Sub-Trope, and Super-Trope, and related concepts in a folder for relationships between tropes, etc.).
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Well, Administrivia.Trope Decay is live, but the Main/ wicks still need to be moved, and there's other stuff. I'll get a to-do list ready.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Main.Trope Decay is dewicked aside from archived pages. Now we just need to reorganize the main Trope Tropes index and we can close, since no other pages need to be dewicked.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
Would FernandoLemon's list be a good start for reorganizing?
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Yes, plus we'd be removing the various forms of Playing with a Trope from the page in favor of having a floatbox with a link to the Playing with a Trope page listing it as a sub-index to Trope Tropes. As for the "Other" category in his post, even if that was intended to be a placeholder and the original plan was to find somewhere else to put them, I don't think it would be a problem if the final page has an "Other" or "Miscellaneous" category for tropes that don't neatly fit into other categories.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 14th 2023 at 2:12:26 PM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
I guess Tropes Hidden from Audience is an audience perception trope?
EDIT: Added the floatbox and cut all the duplicate tropes; all we've left is organizing.
Edited by FernandoLemon on Jun 14th 2023 at 4:29:35 PM
I'd like to apologize for all this.Okay, double post to list everything that still needs discussion when it comes to ordering the page:
- Is the general idea here alright? (I updated it recently)
- Should Trope go unfoldered at the top, or on the floatbox?
- Should we keep Bait-and-Switch (discussed here)?
- What do we do with the two unsorted ones at the bottom? I asked about it some more in the one above this one.
- There hasn't been much discussion on the names and order of the folders.
Edited by FernandoLemon on Jun 14th 2023 at 4:45:27 PM
I'd like to apologize for all this.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I'm leaning toward putting Trope in the floatbox, separate from the main list. I'll have to give the others a closer looks, so I'll hold off on commenting on them for now and come back to them later. (As I said in the illness thread on Yack Fest, I haven't been feeling the best for a decent chunk of the month.)
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 14th 2023 at 3:19:20 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
Put Trope in the floatbox. Once there's more commentary, I'll do the rest.
Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Jun 14th 2023 at 5:54:53 AM
TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I think I can provide feedback to Fernando's post now (except where to put Trope since we already took care of that):
- Is the general idea here alright? (I updated it recently)
I think it looks fine.
- Should we keep Bait-and-Switch (discussed here)?
I think it should be removed if it's a form of Playing with a Trope, since we removed those in favor of listing that index as a sub-index of this one.
- What do we do with the two unsorted ones at the bottom? I asked about it some more in the one above this one.
As I said, I don't think there would be a problem with having an Other or Miscellaneous folder if they don't clearly fit anywhere else, or if their categories aren't large enough to have dedicated folders.
- There hasn't been much discussion on the names and order of the folders.
I think the names you listed in this post would be fine as-is, aside from "Audience Reactions to tropes" probably being the best choice for the fifth category since you were less sure of which word to use), along with changing the category for trope life cycles to "Stages of tropes' life cycles" or something else with "stages" or "phases" in the name and maybe also changing "relations" to "relationships", and I think they should be sorted in alphabetical order.
Edit: I think "Perceptions of tropes" would actually be a better name for the category in the last paragraph, due to Tropes Hidden from Audience being about creator reactions and not audience reactions.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 15th 2023 at 11:18:08 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass. Good. And what about this?
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I think that does sound like a perception trope, but for creators instead of audiences. With that in mind, I think "Perceptions of tropes" without the word "Audience" would be a better name for that category than "Audience Reactions to tropes" or "Audience perceptions of tropes", due to this being for creators instead of audiences.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 15th 2023 at 11:16:34 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
So, based on Fernando and Gaston's posts, should it look like this? Any suggested alterations?
- Favorite Trope: Tropes that the author or audience can't get enough of!
- Newer Than They Think: This isn't as old as most people think it is.
- Older Than They Think: This has been around far longer than you think.
- Pet-Peeve Trope: Tropes that piss off the audience.
- Trope Enjoyment Loophole: When (and perhaps why) something that's a Pet-Peeve Trope doesn't piss somebody off, or the inverse.
- Trope Telegraphing: "I know exactly what will happen next because of this trope."
- Spoilered Rotten: Tropes that are spoilers by default.
- Tropes Hidden from Audience: Tropes that creators usually do not want audiences to know about or recognize.
- Characteristic Trope: Trope becomes discredited due to audience associating it with a certain show.
- Cyclic Trope: The trope alternates between being played straight and discredited.
- Dead Horse Trope: Not only is the trope discredited, but the parodies, subversions, etc. are more common and well-known than straight use ever was.
- Dead Unicorn Trope: The so-called Dead Horse Trope was never used seriously to begin with.
- Discredited Trope: A trope that no one plays straight anymore, lest they face ridicule.
- Evolving Trope: The trope evolves after a period of disuse and become relevant again.
- Forgotten Trope: A trope that no one uses at all anymore.
- Trope Breaker: Something that renders a trope useless.
- Trope Codifier: One example stands out as the template that many other examples follow.
- Trope Makers: The first unambiguous examples of tropes.
- Unbuilt Trope: Trope deconstructed before it was even constructed.
- Undead Horse Trope: The trope is constantly played with or scoffed at, but still sees enough straight use to avoid becoming a Dead Horse Trope.
- Ur-Example: The oldest known example of any given trope.
- Omnipresent Tropes: Tropes that are present in pretty much all fiction, usually by necessity.
- Overdosed Tropes: Tropes that are present in nearly all media, but not by necessity.
- Troperiffic: Work uses a lot of different tropes.
- Tropes in Aggregate: Meta-tropes that become apparent when looking at the whole genre or fiction in general.
- Sister Trope: Tropes that share similar ideas.
- Sub-Trope: Specific variant of one trope is common enough to become its own trope.
- Super-Trope: The broader category that multiple tropes fall under.
- Gender-Inverted Trope: Trope specific to one gender is used with the other in mind.
- Intended Audience Reaction: When an Audience Reaction is intentionally invoked by the authors or creators.
- Tropes Are Flexible: Tropes have far more room and variation than some would think.
- Tropes Are Tools: Tropes are not bad, nor good. Just devices used to entertain.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I can't think of any more changes, and while I initially thought of having a single category for perceptions of tropes, I do feel that your proposal for separate folders for Audience Reactions and other types of perceptions is a good idea now that I've seen what the list would look like. (Since I don't think anyone's addressed it, I think Pet-Peeve Trope is fine in the former category since the only reason it isn't YMMV is because we made it IUEO last year; it was previously YMMV, and currently it still covers reactions from in-universe audiences, plus nothing's anyone on the site from listing their own Pet Peeve Tropes on their Tropers/ pages, since the ban on out-of-universe examples only covers work pages and trope pages.)
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 15th 2023 at 6:41:46 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I swapped in the folders in , so I clocked the thread to give people enough time to provide feedback before closing, since reorganizing the page was the only thing left.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I'm just going to go ahead and close this ahead of schedule since I can't think of anything else to do.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Crown Description:
Trope Tropes is supposed to be about meta concepts about tropes, such as how they play out (Playing With A Trope), how they get started or fall out of usage and other concepts regarding the "lifespans" of tropes (Forgotten Trope, Dead Horse Trope, Trope Maker, etc.), and similar concepts instead of being about what happens with our pages for them, with what happens to our pages being covered by Administrivia instead. Despite this, the page lists Administrivia pages that discuss our pages instead of the concepts behind them, despite the Trope Tropes index describes trope tropes as being "about how tropes come into existence, live, mutate, evolve, and die". In addition, it was suggested to list the Playing With A Trope index as a sub-index (via a floatbox) instead of duplicating the list on the Trope Tropes page (these were determined to be actual Trope Tropes; the concern was redundancy). The following proposals were made:- What should be done about the pages whose presence on the index has been questioned?
- Should Playing With A Trope be listed as a sub-index instead of ways of playing with a trope being listed on Trope Tropes as well?
- Should the listings that are staying on Trope Tropes be sorted into separate folders? Currently, they are listed in a single folder.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]")
An index.
100 years of hard labor in old pudding! (My Troper Wall)