Old Magnificent Bastard thread
Welcome to the Magnificent Bastard proposal thread! This is the thread where new Magnificent Bastard examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential mitigating features will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the MB subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite MB" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from other parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for MB equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, their goals and methodology, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some characters, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
How are they Magnificent?
This is the point where you highlight the character's brilliance. How to they convey their intelligence and charm to the audience? What makes them stand out among the crowd? What are their goals and how do they go about accomplishing them? This part welcomes a lot of creative thinking — not everyone has to be a Machiavellian Diabolical Mastermind to be worth considering here! This is also the time to showcase how the character can think on their feet if it's necessary.
How are they a Bastard? How are they not too bad?
What kinds of moral lines is this character willing to cross for the sake of their goal? Are they willing to let innocents die? Start wars? Commit crimes? The character has to show some kind of unscrupulousness in order to count as a "Bastard". Notably, this character does not necessarily have to be the villain, and an Anti-Hero can cross the line if they're immoral enough, but they have to be immoral somehow.
This is also the section where you then state your case for why they're not too bad. Perhaps their good intentions help mitigate their crimes. Perhaps others are shown to be much worse than them. Perhaps they're prone to Pet the Dog moments or are even fighting on behalf of loved ones. Whatever the case, there are certain lines that an MB can't cross, but as long as their villainy is reasonable for their goal, they can be considered.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:40:56 AM
Yes to Bridget
Edited by Melinda on Jan 28th 2023 at 2:30:52 AM
Alright, here’s my Dynamo write-up. What do you all think?
- Mega Man X5: Dynamo is the suave and chill right hand man to Sigma for X5. After having effortlessly implanted a virus to the Eurasia Space Colony and setting it on a crash course to Earth, Dynamo was then tasked to bother and distract X and Zero twice. Despite this, he shares no real animosity or hatred towards the Maverick Hunters, is genuinely polite and respectful towards them, and has no real desire in trying to kill them. After his second fight with X and Zero, he compliments their strength and power and uses his cunning by leaving as he knows that he will likely die if he continues to stall X and Zero. In X6, he reappears and has been collecting multiple Nightmare Souls in order to get stronger, he encounters and fights X and Zero and compliments their fighting power and skill once again before fleeing mostly unharmed.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Fixed it.
Edited by Fireball246 on Jan 28th 2023 at 2:51:04 AM
The Undercover Troper
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Just a fix on Affably Evil, and good to go.
Edited by RWBYraikou888 on Jan 28th 2023 at 4:55:24 AM
Orcus on His Throne will always be my pet peeve.
A nice swimmer
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Crys.
![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
Edited by Sawkman on Jan 28th 2023 at 8:17:31 AM
The Moron
Edit: Wrong thread, damnit, my bad
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Jan 28th 2023 at 7:25:17 AM
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Bridget, she just gives gadgets to them and otherwises catches people in nets, a very tame measure of "villainy". I don't think she's anywhere near bad enough nor cunning enough.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Now who is ready for another Bull, future, and Snowy collab and the last Pirates keeper.
Who is Will Turner?
Will Turner is the son of legendary pirate Bootstrap Bill Turner. Though he doesn't know that until he is an adult. After being saved by Elizabeth Swann and falling in love with her at first sight, Will grow up to be an apprentice blacksmith in Port Royale. When faced with Jack, Will engages him and keeps up with him in a duel before helping him escape from Port Royale when Elizabeth is kidnapped by the Black Pearl. Helping Jack recruit a crew and track down the Pearl, even leading the crew in a fight against the Pearl while Jack is captured., Will turns himself over to Babossa for Elizabeth and the crews safety. He uses Jack's duel with Babossa to use his blood to break the blood curse leading to Babossa's "temperary" death before helping Jack escape hanging in Port Royale.
Later being sent by Beckett to steal Jack's compass, Will finds himself traded to Davey Jones' ship, where he meets his father. While there, he plays a game of dice with years of servitude in order to trick Jones to show him his key, successfully bluffing the fearsome pirate, before cleverly stealing the key and sneaking away before Jones knows what happened. Dueling for the the Dead Man's Chest, Will later helps lead the fight against the Kraken before agreeing to help save Jack from the Locker. Secretly making a deal with Beckett and Sao Feng to give the Pearl in exchange for his father. Later being thrown overboard by Jack, Will leads the both Beckett and Jones to the Brethren Court, learning that it was Jones that helped imprison Calypso.
Joining back up with the pirates after being traded with Jack, Will reveals that Davey Jones betrayed Calypso knowing that this would enrage her enough to try and kill him. Helping to fight the Flying Dutchman, Will is eventually stabbed by Jones, before being saved by Jack. Becoming the new captain of the Flying Dutchman, Will helps to kill Beckett before spending years helping lost souls to the afterlife. When his son manages to sneak onto the Dutchman, Will tells him to give up trying to save him. Years later Will is finally freed by his son, Will reuinites with his family.
How is he Magnificent?
Over the course of the films, Will has done his fair share of manipulating, trickery, and strategical thinking. He's managed to negotiate and outwit some very smart and experienced foes: like Norrington when he helps Jack escape, Barbossa when he helps to fight off the cursed Pearl crew and undoes the curse, Davey Jones into revealing the key's location, and Beckett in his business negotiations. Though while Will has an commendable win ratio, he's never invincible either and has a few instances of being outplayed himself, many of them from Jack.
Will's best display of charisma is showcased whenever he is forced to take up a leadership role or when he's negotiating. He's commandeered the Pearl in Jack's absence and inspires loyalty/respect from the crew members. There's also the fact that Will is one of the few who managed to survive meeting Davey Jones, keeping himself alive through his way of words.
Personality wise: Will is first and foremost a gentleman, who is polite and friendly to all, even those he doesn't like. He's also not above laying down some Deadpan Snarker and wit on occasion too, for some added extra fun. So he passes on charm easily
Bastard? Too much?
As on the straightened arrow and above everything as he seems, Will does indeed show that he will resort to playing by the rules of piracy many times if he has to-he wanted to be the hero when he took Jack on when he was hiding in the shop rather than stopping a criminal-because he knows outright ethics in this world alone won't do it-and the writing definitely makes it a point to reference the legacy of his father-his being ashamed at first is only the initial reaction and his saving Jack from the Gallows is accepting and being proud of it-and that association being something everyone including Will himself embraces is important too ultimately. Whether or not his constant back forth as frenemies with Jack is worth considering, Will's more underhanded aspects are certainly best demonstrated with things like throwing in with Jack to rescue Elizabeth when Norrington and the Royal Navy don't prove efficient enough for him; fighting both Jack and Norrington for the chest knowing neither of them possessing or controlling Jones's heart will cost each a lot; betraying the Pearl at first to the East India Trading Company and then betraying the whole Brethren Court to them after that-and his knowing Jack well enough to predict his betrayals and take part in them as opposed to just counteracting them at other times is noteworthy too because he's independent to Jack in those cases as well. While he starts to despair eventually at losing the hope he'll every get to have his normal family life again, Will also recovers spectacularly the instant he's finally set free too.
Conclusion
I am leaning towards yes.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
to Will Turner
to Bridgette
Okay so there might be one character from a Fan Fic that could have potential of counting so I thought to EP her so let’s discuss it. The fic is called Sky’s Quest so let’s talk about it
What’s The Work?
Sky’s Quest is a Total Drama fan fiction taking place after Pahkitew Island in the ending where Sky won the season. Of course for those who watched PI will know that the season ended with Dave learning that Sky has a boyfriend and parted on bad terms with her.
This fic is first set during Christmas where Sky wishes to repair her relationship with Dave, leading to a Christmas miracle that sends Sky back in time (It’s a Peggy Sue fic) just before she swapped teams giving her a chance to do things differently, thus leading to her committing different actions in this timeline.
Who Is She? What Has She Done?
Sky is a contestant of PI and the protagonist of this Peggy Sue fic who wishes to to find a way to repair her relationship with Dave, resulting her going back to the time just when Sky and Max switch teams, where Sky would go to Pimâpotew Kinosewak and separated from Dave, with Sky now knowing what has occurred in the future decides to do things differently in the game to change the timeline.
Sky would convince Jasmine to join her side by telling her that she was from the future and giving Jasmine evidence so that she would believe Sky and the two would work together to win the challenge that their team were meant to lose in “Three Zones and a Baby” by taking the phone Topher had so he wouldn’t get distract and scream excitedly when Chris tricked him like in the previous timeline, and instead it was Max from the other team who was eliminated for not returning the baby when required which caused the baby to cry loudly causing the avalanche.
When the merge occurs the next day, Sky makes plans to ensure that Scarlett and Sugar don’t get immunity so she can eliminate them. She starts with Sugar during the whom she sabotages during the eating contest where she tell’s Sugar that she saw her friend Leonard causing Sugar to get distracted while allowing Dave to win the challenge and obtain immunity.
Dave brags about winning the challenge like before bu this time Sky maintains her cool and lets herself be captured by Dave in the second part of the challenge and tells Dave that she has a boyfriend she’s planning to break up with thus save both of them from enduring the emotion drama from the previous timeline and would help Dave find and capture Scarlett and Sugar, where Sky convinces the majority to vote of Scarlet by saying how much of a threat she is.
Before Scarlett gets sent home however, she reveals to everyone that the island is mechanical which malfunctions as a result of her puking on one of the contraptions. Thus the remaining contestants would try finding a way to return the island back to normal where Sky pairs up with Dave, finding the control room and with Topher’s help unlock the door.
However Sugar tries to shut down the malfunctions herself to obtain immunity, but luckily Sky distracts Sugar from doing so by pressing Sugar’s biggest Berserk Button, Ella, causing Sugar to fight Sky and allow Dave to shut down and restore the island back to normal while preventing Sugar from winning immunity, thus allow the cast to eliminate Sugar.
Sky and Jasmine would then break up their alliance this Sugar isn’t around to cause Jasmine’s elimination like in the previous timeline where Jasmine would then team up with her Love Interest Shawn, while Sky would form an alliance with Dave and Topher to counter Jasmine.
However Shawn would reach first place in the next challenge while Sky would jump off a cliff, predicting that a robot Crocodile would arrive at this very time and riding it to the finish line reaching second place, while Dave gets eliminated as a result of finishing last and since Shawn was also giving the power to select the next person going home he chooses Topher.
Despite her allies being gone, Sky manages to obtain a spot in the finale while Shawn is eliminated this time around, while Sky would sneak up to Chris and convince him to bring back all of the eliminated contestants to watch the finale by citing poor ratings All-Stars have received by not bring everyone back in their finale.
However their is another reason why Sky wanted everyone back into the finale as it would give the eliminated villains the opportunity to cause problems while distracting Chris from pulling his own plan to release unsavory footage of the finalists to turn their loved ones against them, and sure enough this Batman Gambit was successful as Scarlett kidnaps Chris and gains control of the island threatening everyone’s lives in exchange for the million dollars.
Sky, Jasmine, and their helpers would then team up to stop Scarlett where Sky would chase after Scarlett, while Jasmine unties Chris. Sky would then stop Scarlet from stealing the million dollars by luring Sugar, whose been chasing Sky after she indirectly cause Sugar to go bald via unleashing a laser cat on her (though in Sky’s defense Sugar was trying to sabotage Sky’s chances of winning), to Scarlett’s position where she hogties her, thus saving everyone from Scarlett’s villainy.
However Chris declares Jasmine the winner of PI because according to Chris Jasmine did something more important than stopping Scarlett, saving him by untying him. However Sky takes her lost in stride and congratulates Jasmine for winning the season, while being satisfied with ranking 2nd, especially now that her relationships here are much better, especially with Dave whom she has a Maybe Ever After in Christmas once Sky breaks up with her boyfriend Keith.
Is She Intelligent? Is She Charismatic?
While Sky has always been portrayed as smart in the canon season and tries being cunning near the end, especially with trying to manipulate Dave’s feelings for her to get him to help her, having prior knowledge of how thing would have happen Sky tries a more strategic and pragmatic approach here and succeeds being able to alter the timeline by persuading contestants to join her alliances and voting how she wants them to, orchestrating many events this time around to eliminate her competition, ensuring she retains her spot in the finale, all while retaining her cool and likable personality this time around.
Even when things still happen the same like in the previous timeline (such as being forced to carry babies in one of the challenges and the island malfunctioning) Sky still retains her cool and makes the best of her situation still managing to win her team the baby challenge this time around and being able to eliminate Sugar after the island turns back to normal.
In fact the only reason why Sky didn’t win PI this time around isn’t because of any flaws with her planning but because Chris decided to pull off a last minute rule change after Sky stopped Scarlett and declare Jasmine the winner because to Chris, him being saved was more important that stopping a dangerous woman from stealing the million dollars and endangering everyone’s lives, and even then Sky is a Graceful Loser, still happy that she’s able to improve her relationship with Dave.
What’s The Competition Like?
Of course Sky is competing with Sugar and Scarlett like before, however this time around Sky is able to manipulate each of them to a certain point such as manipulating Sugar twice to prevent her from getting immunity and even making Scarlett her Unwitting Pawn predicting that she would endanger everyone’s live in her intent to stealing the million dollars thus distracting Chris so that he would pull of his own plan like in the previous timeline. Sky is even able to manipulate Chris into letting all of the eliminated contestants return (including the villainous ones) by exploiting his love for ratings, so yeah Sky clears the competition here.
Is She a Bitch? Is She Too Much of a Bitch?
Well despite Sky being the main character here and trying to repair her relationship with Dave while calling the likes of Sugar for bullying Ella and trying to stop Scarlett in the finale, she has committed some rather unscrupulous acts that might be enough to considered a bitch this time to count. She’ll willing to sabotage fellow competitors to get ahead this time, such as where she tricks Sugar into losing the eating challenge by telling her that Leonard has returned to the competition so that Dave can win the challenge.
Sky has also risked the lives of her fellow competitors for her own purposes twice, the first time being when the island begins malfunctioning where she tries stopping Sugar from deactivating the self-destruction sequence even though they only had less than a minute before the island blows up and kills everyone, so it shouldn’t matter who deactivates the sequence to begin with, and second time when she convinces Chris to bring back everyone previously eliminated, including Scarlett,
It’s worth noting that Sky knows how dangerous Scarlett is because of the previous timeline yet chose to withheld that information from everyone so that she could use Scarlett for her plan, knowing that Scarlett will threaten the lives of everyone to get the million dollars and while everyone’s lives are at risk including Chris, Chris would be too busy to pull off his plan to release footage painting the finalists in bad light.
Final Verdict?
I’ll leave it to you guys to decide.
Edited by G-Editor on Jan 29th 2023 at 11:46:35 AM
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Well Bridget was at least worth the shot I felt. Can't blame me for trying.
@Agent You send The Mask to the drafts?
So glad we finally get to put this to bed: a proud and excited indeed to Will. Thanks to both Bull and Snowy for their parts in making this happen. Writeup will be posted on Tuesday night at 8:42.
Will Turner.
Here's Coco:
- Trick or Treat Scooby-Doo!: Coco Diablo is an underworld fashion designer and the secret mastermind behind all the fake monsters Mystery Inc. have faced. Doing business with criminals around the world, Coco rakes in the dough by providing them with the costumes and gear they need to stage fake haunts to keep them out of trouble. Even when captured at last, Coco writes an autobiography from prison that turns her into a folk hero, and is later released to consult on the unexpected reappearance of ghosts in Coolsville. Blackmailed to serve as a patsy by the mastermind of the new haunt, she quickly turns the tables on him, and later helps Mystery Inc. recapture a gang of escaped past adversaries before parting with them on friendly terms.
Not the Eye
Unexpected to Will Turner
Lean yes to sky
Happy to Will.
Not sure if Sky is bad enough considering the series. I guess tentative yes for now.
Bridget
Edited by Snowy66 on Jan 28th 2023 at 5:48:42 AM
Yes to Camilla, Crys, and Sky. No to Bridget. I'll have to think on Will for a bit. My gut is that he's not as bad as Elizabeth and just skirts with being a Guile Hero. Everyone he turns on are not good people at all. At least Elizabeth gets slight bitch points for her very personal seduction and betrayal of Jack even if he deserved it. I need to compare the two more.
Time to move on to a couple more from Discworld, as I read a few more books while the threads were down. My first comes from novel #15 Men at Arms. This book follows up from Guards! Guards! and follows the alcoholic veteran of the Night's Watch Captain Samuel Vimes and the honest yet ambiguously naive Corporal Carrot Ironfounderson as they investigate a series of mysterious murders in the Discworld's largest city, Ankh-Morpork. These murders being mysterious because the murder weapon has never before been seen on the Disc and presents a grave threat to our stalwart heroes.
Meanwhile, impoverished noble Edward d'Eath seeks to stop the decline of the city by restoring the monarchy and removing the Patrician Havelock Vetinari from power. His studies on the previous line of kings leads him to noticing a startling resemblance between the old kings and Corporal Carrot, thus leading him on an ambitious heist to remove the Patrician and the local Guild leaders from power and crown Carrot king. Back when Edward learned from the Assassin's Guild, his mentor and guild leader Dr. Cruces showed him the gonne, the Discworld's first firearm, hidden away in their museum.
Edward plans a complex heist where he accidentally murders a clown, intending to just knock him out, from the Fool's Guild and steals his outfit and make-up to infiltrate. He then plants an explosive swamp dragon in the clown's room that's located next door to his room at the Assassin's Guild. This allows him to slip in and swiftly steal the gonne when the explosion goes off and get out. At first in awe of the gonne, a sort of revolver rifle, the accidental death of a local dwarven smith who was tinkering with the gonne leads Edward to realize he's in way over his head and doesn't have the nerve to go through with his plan. Thus, he goes to return the gonne, but, alas, poor Edward is murdered by the one person who thought he could trust, who then takes the gonna for their own ambitions.
Who is Dr. Cruces?
Dr. Cruces is the current leader of the Ankh-Morpork Assassin's Guild and the true hidden antagonist of the novel after he murders Edward a quarter of the way into the story. Despite being one of the most powerful people in the city and normally calm and levelheaded man, Cruces has always been forced to play second fiddle to the ever brilliant and scheming Vetinari. Early events play up this dynamic with the Patrician lording over Cruces's failure to prevent the heist of the gonne and him growing obviously resentful of Vetinari looking down on him. He grows further frustrated when Vimes begins investigating the deaths of the clown and the dwarven smith after their bodies were discovered following Edward dumping them in the river. The prior explosion at the guilds and Vimes's team discovering clues about the murder weapon begin to lead to their discovery of the gonne's existence, something Cruces doesn't want to happen.
Dr. Cruces is well aware Edward is the culprit considering he went missing after the explosion happened in his room at the Assassin's Guild, and thus he is about to begin tracking Edward down when fate shines down on him. Edward comes to return the gonne, and Cruces makes the realization that anyone aware of the theft would never suspect he, the victim, would have the stolen weapon again. Vetinari believes Cruces is the buffoon trying to track the gonne down and save face, and Vimes believes Cruces to the be the theft victim trying to stall his investigation to again save face. Thus, Cruces murders Edward and hides his body in the old sewers buried deep beneath the city, to which a hidden entrance known only to Cruces in located in the cellar of the Assassin's Guild. With everyone believing an unknown thief is committing murders with the gonne, Cruces begins planning his assassination of Vetinari during the only event he knows the Patrician would leave the palace, that being Vimes's up coming wedding.
In the events leading up to the wedding, Cruces puts a huge hit out on Edward among his assassins to further set up as an alibi. He then later plans to retrieve Edward's corpse from the sewers to say he was caught and executed, use the dead man guilty of the original theft as a fall guy for the assassination, and get all the credit for capturing the killer in a post-Patrician power vacuum. Cruces proves to have some belief in Edward's findings and plans on putting Carrot on the throne as a puppet king for the Guilds. In the meantime, Cruces tries to assassinate Vimes by shooting him from a vantage point across the street from his home. Taking advantage of a target of opportunity to shoot and seemingly kill the local Queen of the Beggars, Cruces very nearly kills Vimes before the he manages to escape by jumping out a window of his home. Cruces is long gone by the time Vimes makes it to his to vantage point and very coincidentally manages to find the pipe-shaped casing of the gonne.
During his escape, Lance-Constables Cuddy, a dwarf, and Detritus, a troll, see Cruces fleeing and chase after him, but Cruces leads them into a trap and locks them both into a freezing meat locker. The pair manage to escape by Detritus throwing Cuddy threw a high window and him going for help, but a little later on manage to very coincidentally fall through a hole in the street directly into the old sewers. Here the pair manage to find a curious body, one clown already thought dead, but in truth the still disguised corpse of Edward d'Eath. All the clues discovered by them, Vimes, and Carrot and his new love interest and werewolf Lance-Constable Angua leads them to discovering the full truth behind how Edward committed the theft and how he obviously couldn't be the killer they were searching for. Vimes meanwhile retires shortly before his wedding, which leaves Carrot to try to finish the investigation without him.
They are unable to find the culprit before the wedding, allowing Cruces to take up his sniping position in the high tower overlooking the magical Unseen University where the wedding is taking place. An on-guard Carrot sends Cuddy up the tower to keep watch, leading to his death when Cruces ambushes him and throws him down the tower floor. Here marks one of the only times in the entire series where the normally implacable Vetinari takes a serious loss. Carrot, upon seeing the glint of the gonne from atop the tower, immediately runs towards Vetinari. This causes the Patrician to stand up and the shot meant for his chest to instead rip through his thigh and permanently cripple him. Carrot takes the second shot non-fatally when he knocks Vetinari down, and orders the tower searched. Cruces manages to escape, knocking out another Watch officer in the process, and runs back towards the sewers. Trying to cut his losses and implicate Edward, Vimes and Carrot confront Cruces in the dark sewers and so begins the climax.
With Carrot aiming a crossbow at him and Vimes carrying the lantern, they question Cruces on the previous events and try to arrest him only for Cruces to shoot out the lantern and get them held in gun point. They manage to get Cruces talking long enough for Angua to come out of nowhere to attack Cruces, but take a full clip in the process. This leads to Vimes grabbing the gonne and chasing after Cruces, who used the opportunity to flee back to the Guild and plan a defense. Vimes chases after him and makes it to Cruces's office, but Cruces manages to talk him down under the belief Vimes wouldn't shoot an unarmed man. Carrot knocks the gonne out of Vimes's hands, giving Cruces the chance to take it back. Revealing Carrot's noble heritage with all the evidence Edward gathered up, he tries to turn him to his side and let him kill Vimes. This last act of trying to turn the unflappable Carrot to side gives the Corporal the chance to impale Cruces to the wall with his sword, killing the head assassin at last. Tying up loose ends, Carrot immediately follows this up by smashing the gonne, ensuring no one else can use it for evil.
Is he magnificent?
A huge bit of Alternate Character Interpretation in the novel is whether or not the gonne is sentient or not. The audience sees it "talk" to its wielders in their first person narration segments, but this could have just as easily been their own ambitions overwhelming them by having such a powerful weapon in their grasp. It killing the dwarf smith in the beginning could have just as easily been a misfire. The gonna isn't even magical in any way and it was created by a completely non-magical inventor.
My point being here is the overarching theme of a firearm in the age of crossbows seemingly corrupting and mentally degrading its wielders. Regardless of whether the gonne is actually alive or not, it never affects Cruces's abilities to actually think and plan and he never fully loses control or becomes a nervous wreck. His final confrontation with Vimes and Carrot sees him put up a good fight and take every advantage he can get. Elsewhere in the story he is depicted rarely losing his cool and being as level-headed and calm you'd expect a professional assassin to be. Overall, he's as brilliant and charming as you'd expect from such a character archetype.
One further point I would like to make is that Cruces's plan is nearly fullproof and only falls apart due to one-in-a-millions coincidences. This isn't even something I'm interpreting and is something called out in a meta-text passage near the start of the novel, as shown here. In a million universes, Lance-Constables Cuddy and Detritus didn't fall through the hole. In a million universes, Vimes didn't find the pipes. In a million universes, the Watch failed. In a million universes, this was a very short book. Essentially, Cruces's plan succeeded in a million universes and he killed Vetinari and took control of the city. It just so happened that the only way it would be a good book is if it took place in a universe where he failed.
Is he a bastard?
Dr. Cruces is a professional assassin that trains other assassins to assassinate people in paid assassinations. He's an evil man, and that's on top of the murders he commits in the book.
Final Verdict?
I feel pretty good with this one with everything laid out.
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Jan 28th 2023 at 5:57:48 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Dr. Cruces.
With Will and Elizabeth in comparison. While yes he betrays bad people. He still betrays his friends to a guy he knows wants to kill them all which regardless of them being pirates is still presented as horrible. Elizabeth by comparison only betrays one guy who is absolutely deserving and has betrayed her and Will the entire movie. Plus the whole you know sending Calypso into a rampage just so she will kill Jones for him that risks everyone else.
Edited by Bullman on Jan 28th 2023 at 8:11:54 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Alright time for my next pair with the relitigating of Tulius. Shocking surprise which game I'm leeching off again...Skyrim. Joining the imperial side the Dragonborn will be under the command of the two leaders on their side, Tulius (who I not long got up) and his right hand woman Legate Rikke. I'll get to my other guy later so folks can get some of their E Ps in.
Who is Legate Rikke and what does she do?
Legate Rikke can be found within Castle Dour in Solitude discussing with Tulius with her being adamant about Ulfric being willing to attack Whiterun. When you speak to Tulius about joining the Legion, he guides you to Rikke as she is the one who is behind recruits. Rikke will then task you to clear out a fort full of bandits so she can send troops there as a lookout spot for Solitude. After the Dragonborn clears the fort out, Rikke will deem you useful for the cause and will let them join the empire.
After that Rikke will be with the Dragonborn to find the Jagged Crown within some ancient Nordic Ruins after discovering Ulfric's right hand man Galmar has good authority it's in there. Rikke will aid them against the Stormcloaks there and the undead draugr deep within. With the crown retrived, Rikke will then aid the Dragonborn in the battle of Whiterun with a counterattack on the Stormcloaks.
With Whiterun secured, Rikke will now try to slowly infilatrate some of the other Stormcloak-aligned holds. To capture Dawnstar Rikke has the Dragonborn kill a Stormcloak courier to falsify the documents they had to give to the Stormcloak commander at Dawnstar. To get a hold of Riften, Rikke has the Dragonborn blackmail the stewardess there to find out about a Stormcloak convoy of weapons, later having them ambush it.
When a hold is to be captured, Rikke will lead an assault on it's designated fort to stop the Stormcloak presence there, gradually making their way to Windhelm. The Dragonborn will then join Tulius and Rikke as they lay siege to the city, eventually making their way to Ulfric's keep. After a fight against Ulfric and Galmar resulting in their demises, Rikke and Tulius will head to the front of the keep with peace somewhat being made at last.
Is she magnificent?
Rikke is a competent planner and the one in charge of the recruits. While Tulius is the one in charge and is the reason the Stormcloaks aren't winning, Rikke is the more hands-on with her being your main character to be with during the questline. She's loyal to the cause but of genuine belief that the empire needs to be united before the second incoming attack from the Thalmor.
As for the Stormcloak's side, Rikke's role is shared with Tulius as being behind the imperial garrisons and going out Defiant to the End. Unlike Tulius however you can find her Sovngarde, where she is a bit ran down due to realsing about Alduin feasting on the souls of the departed but she ends up perking up when Alduin is defeated and she'll even engage in the battle with him so there's some efforts for trying.
Is she a bitch?
Out of the 4 heads of the civil war Rikke is arguably the least bastardy one as she is also a Nord at heart and is shown to be trying to convince her old friend Galmar to give up the crusade, even giving Ulfric and Galmar a quiet farewell as they perish. Ultimately though she is still in a civil war and her soldiers are responsible for the killing of Stormcloak soldiers which as the people in their holds do say, that families are torn apart.
Like Tulius though she does hope that the Stormcloak's passions die down with Ulfric's demise.
Rikke: "It wasn't so bad."
Tulius: "I hope we haven't just created a martyr."
Rikke: "There's bound to be resistance. There are still Stormcloak camps, tucked away in the hills. They'll no doubt strike wherever and whenever they can. But, without Ulfric to inflame their passions, they'll settle down and return to their homes eventually."
Tullius: "I pray you're right, Legate. In the meantime, we'll continue to root them out and put them to the sword. We couldn't have done this without you. The Empire glories in your accomplishments. Come Rikke, there's still much to be done."
Another major thing that could be seen as a bitch factor is her rather callous dememaour to testing new recruits. Such as the Dragonborn.
Rikke: "Is that confidence, or bravado? Confidence I can use. Bravado gets soldiers killed. We'll soon find out. I'm sending you to clear out Fort Hraagstad. If you survive, you'll pass. If you die, then I'll have no further use for your corpse."
However Rikke is shown to value her loyal soldiers as comrades, not as assets.
Final Verdict?
Your call folks
Edited by WetFlannels on Jan 28th 2023 at 2:15:26 PM
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
I'd forgotten that yeah, revealing the truth to Tia/Calypso about Jones—I gotta add that to the writeup—also puts everybody else in danger, so it's definitely a risk he takes that works in his favor.
I'll say yes to Rikke, but you should put the part where she sends you clear out the fort and is very callous about you dying. Put up that specific dialogue in the bastard section because it's the only reason I'm voting yes.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
to Namor, Uncle Fester, Lin Yao, Scar, Kingpin, Wednesday, Billy, Ghatanothoa, Maryrose, Adar, Sanguine, Professor Sada, Craig, Duke of Francis, Zed, Goldilocks, Luthen Rael, Turner, Lil Acorn, Jung Sun-ah, Dominic Haan, Kleya, Cinta, the Shade, Despero, General Tulius, Freddie, Kimmy, Satori Riven, Zora, Ace, Luther, Rymek, L'Hero, El Huracan, Peligre, Koroleth, Evil Edward Lee, Aaravos, Sportsmaster, Tigress, Rhea Jarrell, Anamaria, Hitomi Kisugi, Victor, King Canute, Galvin, Mike, Santa, Jerry, Black Adam, Violet, Constance Beauregard, Six, Pilgrim, Frau Blücher and Baron Victor Frankenstein, Dracula, Coco Diablo, Mr Scooge, Wes Craven, Orn-Zu, Emperor Doofenshmirtz, Sebastian, Massimo Torini, Betty, Frank Castle, Regine, Gianni Schicchi, Mira Kano, Johann Krauss, Ultron, Nacht Faust, Dynamo, Blackmore, Teach, the Thing, the Mask, Hank, One Eyed Willy, Woman in the Blonde Wig, Kayla, Camilla, Crys, Sky, Dr. Cruces and Legate Rikke.
Abstain on Will Turner.
Its good to be back.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Rikke.
For Will. This is the I am going to say on the matter for a while because it's not a hill I am going to die on but how is him betraying them to Beckett, a guy he knows wants to exterminate them all over and who we see is willing to do so with extreme measures, not enough to push him into the bastard line. I mean regardless of if they are pirates they are still his friends and a lot of them are good people.
Edited by Bullman on Jan 28th 2023 at 8:18:42 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Goddamn man lmao.
@Lore updated with that segment in.
Will, Sky, Dr. Cruces
Edited by WetFlannels on Jan 28th 2023 at 2:17:31 PM
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
He's an Asshole Victim, but yeah, bringing him to the Brethren Court and putting them all in danger—even if it's what he and Jack both planned to trap Beckett—is definitely an immoral enough act on its own.
@MGD Damn man. Damn. Haha.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jan 28th 2023 at 6:18:58 AM
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Though, he has a change of heart later on. Which is why it is still not a hill I am willing to die.
Edited by Bullman on Jan 28th 2023 at 8:23:02 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Just chiming in to note I'm going to be out for most of the day and will probably be slow with updating. If anyone wants to be on top of pending, drafts and locked be my guest! You guys work hard and I don't want to keep anyone waiting if they're anxious to see their stuff go up.