Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the Complete Monster proposal thread! This is the thread where new Complete Monster examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential redeeming qualities will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the CM subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite CM" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for CM equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, the crimes they commit, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some villains, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?
This is where any potential redeeming characteristics or tragic backstory should be discussed. Do they have a tragic past? Do they show that Even Evil Has Standards or Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Maybe a Pet the Dog moment or two? This is where these should be discussed in full. Not every potential redeeming moment is a clear-cut disqualifier, but we should hear of any potential issues to ensure the character is discussed in full.
Are they bad enough?
A Complete Monster has to be particularly vile by the standard of the work they appear in. Therefore, you should look at what the character does compared to similar characters in the same work. This takes into account things like:
- Their resource level (a human Serial Killer can't stand up to an alien Omnicidal Maniac, but they can be bad by the standard of other human serial killers)
- The amount of time they have to work with (such as a one-shot character versus long-running antagonists)
- The quantity vs. quality of their crimes compared to others (someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)
Essentially, this section is an analysis of the kinds of villainy shown in the work and an explanation of why this particular character's villainy stands out within it.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
IMPORTANT NOTICE: This thread tackles very serious and dark matters on a daily basis. We will be discussing things like murder, rape, torture, human trafficking, crimes against children, and in particularly dark cases, several of these issues at the same time. We keep a lighthearted air, but all candidates carry the general assumption that these are awful individuals committing disgusting crimes. We ask that if you participate, you do so with the requisite seriousness such dark topics require; exclamations of how gross something is, whether serious or sarcastic, are disrespectful to the topics at hand, and if you cannot handle such topics, please do not participate.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:42:49 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Forgo: That's fine, if the information is factually inaccurate (Rezzoch could probably be changed to Pragmatic Villainy or something).
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Goku Black
I thought we Were told not to change stuff like this unless it's by you know the people who actually see the work.
Edited by miraculous on Jun 29th 2023 at 2:18:34 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
The Ultimate Lifeform
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Okay. That's a relief. I was worried that since I Effort Posted her, it would look like I was trying to make her out to be worse than she was, despite the entry actually doing the opposite.
Anyways, is my writeup for Dimentio approved?
Edited by ForgoLight on Jun 29th 2023 at 2:17:05 AM
"Us weirdos have to stick together!"
Not the Eye
I could simply add line about how she is Benevolent Boss as long as her minions are useful.
@ACW Since I don't describe the priest's decapitation here, Off with His Head! wouldn't be included again. I think for Grutas saying how much he values only his own life, It's All About Me I guess would be the appropriate replacement then.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jun 29th 2023 at 2:20:21 AM
Goku Black
Actually uh for Hannibal rising. Does it not have a separate film page? As that whole allowance for doing two entries was specifically if that was true. Otherwise you just use the original medium page of literature only.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
The Ultimate Lifeform
@Miraculous, what do you mean? I'm kinda confused by what your saying with the "We aren't supposed to change things unless we have seen the work", because I have played the whole game of XCOM 2, and not once does it paint the AE's actions as even remotely justified, even when it reveals that there is a bigger threat coming after Humanity now, since the AE and by extension, the Elders, are only out to save their own hides.
And can I please get info on if my write-up for Dimentio is approved?
"Us weirdos have to stick together!"
It's for the thing under Rezzoch's entry, about deleting the Benevolent Boss example if you haven't watched the show
Also unless somebody says anything about your entry just assume people are fine with it
REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her
Goku Black
We uh got in trouble with the mods as people were making changes without reasons to trope pages to remove stuff. Or making a change like Affably Evil to Faux Affably Evil without Changing the actual text to make it make sense.
We agreed in one of the ways to reopen it to you know leave it alone.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Forgo: Writeup's fine.
Mir: Wait, really? I'm especially fine with it since we have a film tree, which would be odd to exclude Grutas.
Ah yes, I remember that. The change is fine, but make sure to put an edit reason and/or change the text so it does make sense (I got dinged for changing Affably Evil to Faux without anything else).
Edited by ACW on Jun 29th 2023 at 5:28:53 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Goku Black
You can copy the literature write up. Just don't make a new one unless someone makes a page for the film.
And yes that is actually in adminsitriva.
Edited by miraculous on Jun 29th 2023 at 2:28:33 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
The Ultimate Lifeform
and OH! I be a dumb dumb. Fortunately I did in fact change the text of the AE's innacurate Well-Intentioned Extremist entry while also changing the trope to Not-So-Well-Intentioned Extremist.
Edited by ForgoLight on Jun 29th 2023 at 2:29:42 AM
"Us weirdos have to stick together!"
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Future, you mean Rabbi instead of Priest? Looks like that is actually in the film.
So I'll just copy this; is it all accurate to the film? I did that with Yellow Bastard, but I actually saw that film:
- Hannibal Rising: Vladis Grutas is a vicious war criminal who escaped justice in World War II. A member of the collaborating Lithuanian militias, Grutas led the sack of a small town and personally executed Jewish prisoners, executing one Rabbi by sawing his head off. During the winter, Grutas and his men took refuge in a small building with a young Hannibal Lecter and his baby sister Mischa inside. Grutas, to stave off hunger, decapitated Mischa with an axe and had her cooked and fed to the others. In the present, Grutas is a mob boss who uses murder and prostitution to further profits. When he and Hannibal fight, Grutas takes pleasure in mocking Hannibal how he also fed him his own sister in the winter years ago.
Lighty can probably attest to how accurate the film version of Grutas is to the book one. Thomas Harris also did the film's screenplay as I said before.
I'm good with just reusing the Lit one if that's the case. If ever the film gets its own page, we can use mine then. Gonna be the easiest transfer over to the sandbox ever for now though.![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Also, sorry Rabbi. My bad. Didn't mean to do that.
Yeah the Rabbi bit was definitely brought up in the movie. I was avoiding repetition with the Lit entry in my EP though.
@~Lightysnake You did indeed write the Lit one, right?
The Lit entry's better anyway. Again, with Verger, different entry is justified not just because the film has its own page, but because even without reading the book, I know he's different there than in the movie.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jun 29th 2023 at 2:53:49 AM
I did.
Calling Witcher S3
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Lighty, a simple copy-and-paste work for Grutas?
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Cool.
Edited by ACW on Jun 29th 2023 at 7:41:32 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Pretty much nothing is different, so yeah
A nice swimmer
Strange that my candidate got abstained into oblivion. With 1![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
and 0![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_down_emote.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
.
Well, i guess it's fine. I'll probably find another work that i can put a proposal of.
Due to unfortunate events, i will continue to exist until further notice.
Showtime!
To Rezzok and smart
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Alright very quick EP, after bringing up Waraabe in the cleanup thread. There's been hearings out of this guy so let's get to it. Meet Volk.
Who is Volk and what has he done?
Viktor "Volk" Khristenko is the CEO of Fregata Industries, a shipping corporation sourced throughout Europe. Volk is also the chemical weapons expert of Vladimir Makarov in which he used his company as a front to ship bioweapon WM Ds over the continent, with Volk being the one to create them. Having these chemical weapons detonated throughout Europe, with confirmation of deaths, this gives Makarov the means to have the Russian military conduct a full scale invasion of Europe.
After Price interrogates Waraabe and discovers Volk was the means behind the bombs, Delta Force conduct a retrieve mission in Paris to capture Volk for interrogation. When the heroes discover his hideout, Volk fires at them before fleeing eventually being caught after Makarov's soldiers are mowed down. Eventually he's sent back to America in which he spills the beans of everything he knows about Makarov's organisation. His fate is unknown but it's presumed he's left in American custody.
Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Quite simply no on either accord. The game's never dwell on his relationship with Makarov so can't say anything for that. His whole capture mission is basically him being a Dirty Coward and having Makarov's troops try to kill Team Delta since he was originally waiting for the conflict to die in Paris so he could safely travel away.
Heinous Standard?
This standard is nasty Makarov perpetrated WW3, Zakhaev dabbled with nukes, Khaled and Waraabe go through ethnic cleansings and are conspirators with the two former guys. Volk? I'd say he stands out for being responsible for the creation of the chemical weapons shipping them across Europe, paving the way for Makarov to do a full-scale invasion when Europe's defences are crippled. Now if there's concerns about him a bit too hands off? Fair enough but the game states Volk personally oversaw the bio weapon being planted in Paris before it got detonated.
Final Verdict
Your call folks.
Edited by WetFlannels on Jun 29th 2023 at 3:00:51 PM
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
The Ultimate Lifeform
I think the despicable war crime of mass chemical warfare makes Volk stand out enough. from me but amenable to other thoughts.
Speaking of which, this is what happens to Elesh Norn's page. Norn isn't like, flat-out Faux Affably Evil or Not-So-Well-Intentioned Extremist, she flat out subverts Faux Affably Evil and NSWIE. As much as I hate to edit that page since the MotM arc left a really bad taste in my mouth.
Rezzok
Having played MW3 I think Volk does just enough to standout in the OG Modern Warfare series so I’m giving him a
Edited by G-Editor on Jun 29th 2023 at 5:07:57 AM
The Ultimate Lifeform
Here are my writeups for Gaul and T'Ket! You guys like em? Yes I know it's a little early for T'Ket but it's close enough right? May as well group her in with Gaul.
- Star Trek Online
- Gaul is the leader of the Vaadwaur Supremacy, and a slimy, treacherous warmonger. Beginning to awaken millions of other Vaadwaur survivors, Gaul soon makes a Faustian Bargain with the Iconians and infects his own supporters with the Bluegill Parasites that enslave them to the Iconains will in exchange for elements of their technology, despite the fact that Gaul himself never had a Bluegill of his own. Gaul would then lead his army of zealots and brainwashed zombies on a bloody crusade of genocide against the rest of the Galaxy, with races across the Delta Quandrant having their entire civilizations pushed to the brink of extinction. When the player exposes what Gaul has done to other Vaadwaur to his people, Gaul immediately orders the forces still loyal to him to slaughter the dissidents.
- T'Ket is one of the three leaders of the Iconians, alongside M'Tara and L'Miren, and she proves herself to be by far the worst of them all. Originally starting as a normal Iconian, T'Ket would be filled with vitriolic hatred for the Romulans when a time traveling Sela shoots her sister L'Miren during the evacuation of Iconia, due to Sela wanting to prevent the Hobus Supernova. 100,000 years later, T'Ket serves as one of the masterminds of the Iconian Invasion of the Milky Way, providing the equally vile Hakeev and Gaul the technology they needed to commit their atrocities, including Hobus, with the goal of total galactic genocide. When the player boards M'Tara's flagship, T'Ket subtly helps the player to get M'Tara killed in the hopes of getting the other Iconians on her side and exterminating the galaxy. When the player reveals the truth of "The Other" to the Iconians and L'Miren ends the war, T'Ket furiously declares that she will never stop killing the Milky Way races and abandons her surviving sister, showing no shame in continuing actions she knows got other Iconians killed, all because of her undying hatred for mortal races.
@ACW Again, I hear he's virtually the same character, so I don't see why not.
Again, a learning curve here was writing both the EP and writeup while figuring out how to write about him in such a way that I either reworded or avoided repeating things while doing so.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jun 29th 2023 at 2:17:13 AM