Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the Complete Monster proposal thread! This is the thread where new Complete Monster examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential redeeming qualities will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the CM subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite CM" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for CM equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, the crimes they commit, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some villains, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?
This is where any potential redeeming characteristics or tragic backstory should be discussed. Do they have a tragic past? Do they show that Even Evil Has Standards or Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Maybe a Pet the Dog moment or two? This is where these should be discussed in full. Not every potential redeeming moment is a clear-cut disqualifier, but we should hear of any potential issues to ensure the character is discussed in full.
Are they bad enough?
A Complete Monster has to be particularly vile by the standard of the work they appear in. Therefore, you should look at what the character does compared to similar characters in the same work. This takes into account things like:
- Their resource level (a human Serial Killer can't stand up to an alien Omnicidal Maniac, but they can be bad by the standard of other human serial killers)
- The amount of time they have to work with (such as a one-shot character versus long-running antagonists)
- The quantity vs. quality of their crimes compared to others (someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)
Essentially, this section is an analysis of the kinds of villainy shown in the work and an explanation of why this particular character's villainy stands out within it.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
IMPORTANT NOTICE: This thread tackles very serious and dark matters on a daily basis. We will be discussing things like murder, rape, torture, human trafficking, crimes against children, and in particularly dark cases, several of these issues at the same time. We keep a lighthearted air, but all candidates carry the general assumption that these are awful individuals committing disgusting crimes. We ask that if you participate, you do so with the requisite seriousness such dark topics require; exclamations of how gross something is, whether serious or sarcastic, are disrespectful to the topics at hand, and if you cannot handle such topics, please do not participate.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:42:49 AM
King Kandy Kane
I'll also be switching my vote for PHEN to abstain. Since it's confirmed Doctor Nowhere is continuing his story, I'll wait until that's finished.
(police siren)
A Girl, Just One of Many Kinds
Honestly gonna go no with The Manager. While he’s heinous, I think the video is not taken seriously enough including with his crimes. Thw guy is talking about all the amenedies and great things about his hotel, which are murdering and brutally slaughtering people, with things such as the the ghosts in the bar just looking bored as they are drinking, talking about room service costing an arm, a leg “a torse stomach a neck and a head” and noting that the menu’s sparse but tye staff’s well fed. And also a joke about a Trip Advisor which says “Five stars! Never a survivor!” It’s not smth that has much of a dramatic weight or anything such as that, especially compared to Stupendium’s other Complete Monsters, such as the CEO, The Lamb and so on.
Edited by MermaidEyes15 on Apr 20th 2024 at 10:02:07 AM
Keep Fighting. Keep Loving.
This post contains major spoilers for The First Omen so please proceed with caution.
What is the work?
The First Omen, a prequel to The Omen.
Who is Cardinal Lawrence and what has he done?
Cardinal Lawrence is the leader of a cult within the Catholic Church that is determined to bring about the birth of the Antichrist. After decades of trying, they succeed when a young nun-in-training named Margaret gives birth to twins, a boy (Damien) and a girl. The cult is overjoyed that one of the babies is a boy, since the Antichrist must be male. Their joy is short-lived, however, since Margaret stabs Lawrence in the neck with a scalpel and he presumably dies (though this is not shown onscreen). The cult then leave Margaret and her baby daughter to die in a fire and arrange for the murder of Robert and Katherine Thorn's newborn son so that Damien can replace him.
Any redeeming qualities?
Cardinal Lawrence is a Faux Affably Evil character. He mentored Margaret when she was younger and appears friendly towards her throughout the film. This is, at best, an act given that he has been secretly grooming her to be the mother of the Antichrist for her entire life. Even when Margaret is giving birth, he still maintains a falsely comforting demeanor despite the terrifying circumstances she finds herself in.
With regards to motive, it is explained in the film that Lawrence and his cult believe that secularism is a threat that must be stamped out. They think the only way to turn people back to God is to create an Antichrist that will frighten them into becoming religious. But as they say, actions speak louder than words and the terrible things that Lawrence has his cult do, supposedly in God's name, paint him as a Not-So-Well-Intentioned Extremist.
Is Lawrence bad enough?
In order to create the Antichrist, Lawrence and his cult commit some truly horrendous atrocities. They subject over a dozen women to brutal rapes by a demonic jackal (who may or may not be Satan himself). Two of these rapes are shown in the film. In the first instance, the woman is fully conscious and screaming as her body is violated. In the second instance, Margaret is sedated but drifts in and out of consciousness. Most of the rapes result in deformed babies who do not live past infancy but two of the babies survive. The first is the aforementioned Margaret. The second is a girl named Carlita who is raised in an orphanage by nuns. The nuns are part of the cult and treat Carlita terribly, often locking her in her room and strapping her to her bed. It is also worth noting that the Antichrist can only be conceived if the jackal mates with its own offspring, meaning that Margaret is actually raped by her own biological father.
Final verdict?
Cardinal Lawrence is arguably the Greater-Scope Villain of the entire Omen saga, since he and his cult are instrumental in paving the way for Damien. They are second only to Damien himself in the amount of misery and suffering they cause.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Dr. Gross.
Baba Shakti and Rana Singh.
Timm- Tom Turner.
Andrew Borden.
Amnās.
Cardinal Lawrence.
While I haven't seen the movie, but I hear Satan has more of a direct presence than the previous movies. If that’s the case, would Satan have a shot here ? Since he's also behind the supernatural killings — and pretty much everything — in the original trilogy.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Insert title here
Lawrence
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Satan is never actually named in the film and it's debatable whether the jackal is meant to be him or not. Hence, I felt Lawrence was the most obvious candidate for CM status.
....Phenomenal
for Edward and Lawrence. And I think I'm fine with the Manager, listening to the song, his cheeriness about it more comes across as Faux Affably Evil to me rather than an outright joke.
Dagded Dujardin
Lawrence
I am going to renominate a long removed example. Bob Garrison from Cold Case fanfics The Wall and The Company.
Who is Bob Garrison and what does he do?
Bob Garrison is a CIA officer. He is introduced giving a speech about on of his men Jeff Royce retiring, assuring his subordinates his leaving is not due to the Soviet collapse, rather that he wants to return to his personal life, and that he is leaving the CIA is good hands. Cut to Jeff dead.
The squad discusses the death of Jeff, noting that the suspect Oscar Torres ODed in his apartment. Despite this Oscar has an alibi, being in rehab. Jefferies notes Jeff's career in the CIA, and they remark he must have enemies.
The Cold Case squad meets Garrison who speaks highly of Jeff, before having them speak to Bonnie. Jeff is harassed by a neighbor and activist Roberto Sanchez who Squad believes might be a suspect. Roberto is interrogated and recalls a conversation he overheard, reveling that Jeff was never retired. Roberto is cleared due to an alibi.
The Squad meets Ethan who confirms that the retirement was a coverup. He describes meeting with Jeff alongside ex agent Steve Mitchum, who's botching of an operation resulted in three people dying.
The Squad talks to Steve who claims he was meeting with Jeff and Ethan to discuss surveillance on Jeff's neighbor Omar. Steve notes that Omar died in a boating accident. Steve also claims that Jeff's son Jimmy was caught spying on his dad.
The Squad talks to Jimmy who confirms he did not stop spying on Jeff. A recording of his reveals him talking to Bob Garrison who is not happy with Jeff, and the Squad considers Garrison a suspect.
The Squad talks to Garrison who claims he was surveilling Omar due to him being a terror suspect, noting the 1993 WTC bombing and the CIA shooting. He denies arranging the accident, claiming he needed Omar alive.
When Jeff finds out Omar is dead he leaves the CIA noting his on paper retirement. Garrison tells the Squad that he believes Steve killed Jeff to cover up embezzlement. Steve denies such an allegation.
Lily and Scotty meets Ethan who reveals Omar is not dead. They tell Ethan they know he was blackmailed, and Ethan reveals his chair is attached to a bomb, if he dies his family gets left alone. Despite their begging, Ethan gets up and blows himself up.
Garrison meets with the squad to discuss the death of Ethan. Garrison claims to know Kavanaugh from a "spirited debate" over "enhanced interrogation techniques. Garrison suspects that Omar is the blackmailer. Jeffries talks to Jimmy, who reveals that Jeff admitted to Omar that he was surveilling him. Omar runs and Jeff chases after him.
Back at the motel Louie notes another bomb, a life one. The squad deactivates it and try to dust it for prints. In the meantime they find a dentist who called Jeff. He admits to faking Omar's death by doing dental work on a deceased homeless man.
The squad confront Steve about the dentist and he says that he and Jeff kidnapped Omar, explaining to him that they were told to surveil him believing him to be a terrorist, but Jeff realizes he is not.
A group of mercenaries pursue Jeff and corner him at a house. Jeff and his wife fire at the shoot the mercenaries in the hands before making them leave at gunpoint. Sharon notes to the Squad that such men where Bob Garrison's private security to perform illegal operations.
Using the address the Squad locates Omar. Omar reveals that he was a CIA informant. He had a meeting with Bob Garrison, who was torturing Rashid with firehoses. Rashid pleads that he knows nothing but Garrison continues the torture. When Garrison sees Omar he tries to kill him, but Rashid then has a heart attack and Garrison tries to save him to preserve the information he might have.
The squad confronts Garrison about the torture, the private security, and the explosion that killed Ethan, who denies everything, and smugly notes his retirement. Bonnie is abducted and the Squad arrives on time gunning down the mercenaries. In custody Bonnie admits that she set up the meeting that resulted in Garrison killing Jeff. Garrison and his mercenaries are arrested with Steve smugly watching.
To sum it up Garrison kills Rashid via waterboarding, tries to kill Omar, shoots Jeff, has Oscar overdosed, blows up Ethan with attempt to kill the Squad as well, and tries to kill Bonnie.
Heinous standard
The author has several cold case fics. Blood and Water deals with a serial killer who burned three victims to death. Said victims where known as heroes, but the killer considered them to be hypocrites.
The reason he does not qualify is that he has a Freudian Excuse of his sister dying in a fire. The squad initially believe he was angry at his fireman father, but the killer really angry at himself for not saving his sister.
A minor villain from the same fic is a serial rapist. He attacks waitress Amelia before her coworker Charlie bash the rapist with a coffee mug. Said rapist is stated have attacked three women, cutting them up in the process. Charlie was targeted by the killer, because despite his bravery, he was very meek on the job.
Narc is about the death of a police informant. Said informant was found out by his friend, and he chose to help out said friend. The informant's handler believed this put the operation in jeopardy, so they had him killed. The informant's boss then assaulted one of the police, leaving her in a coma.
Lucky Man has Brian a clumsy student die in a fall. Brian was blackmailing a professor to give Brian's girlfriend a job as his assistant, or he will reveal he was sleeping with Allison his student. Allison and he brother confront Brian, accidentally killing him and Allison covers it up.
Now if Cold Case the show factors in to the standard we have pedophile Josh Freely who's abuse leads to a parent commiting murder suicide, cult leader Maurice Warfield who plans mass scale patricide, serial rapist Mike Delaney, and Serial Killer "John Smith" who kills via live burial, as well as non CM serial killer George Marks who kills via hunting. It's also possible that other Csi villains may factor inti the heinous standard.
Edited by randomtroper89 on Apr 21st 2024 at 10:06:29 AM
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Why was he removed?
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
I think it was because his writeup was poor context as I was unable to locate any discussion, this is it:
- Cold Case fanfiction Season 8: Bob Garrison has a sadistic love of torture, tries to kill a witness for watching him torture a man to death, and, finally, in his crowning act of evil, he has his men murder and frame a recovering alcoholic in order to trick people into thinking his murder was a mugging.
Edited by randomtroper89 on Apr 20th 2024 at 1:21:52 PM
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
So can you summarize his overall evil acts, and what is the general standard of the original series, so we can better weigh him against that?
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Barb / Temporary Kylo
Quick question, does the '2 week wait' wait rule still apply to fansongs? Just wanted to ask to be sure.
The First man
Lizzid people!
Don't think fics/fan songs have a waiting period IIRC.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Caesar
Yes to Lawrence and the Monkey Man duo, great work there, Jack!
Ok, got one who was brushed aside when the game first released, without much detailed discussion or an EP. On reflection, I think the character counts...going ahead and warning that this is the longest EP I've done in years, so if anyone wishes to just get to the meat of things, you can skip the folders. But this is a complex character with a lot of nasty shit under his belt.
What's the work?
God of War is one of the iconic Playstation franchises, spanning from the PS2 to our modern PS5 days. Back then, in the "Greek era", we followed Blood Knight Anti-Hero Kratos as he waged war on the gods of Olympus for their crimes against his family, and slowly but surely decimated the lands in his quest for vengeance.
Now, Kratos is in a new world, a new era: the Norse era. Older, wiser and more restrained, Kratos has settled down with a loving wife and young son Atreus, but after his wife's death brings all manner of trouble to their door, Kratos and Atreus set out on a long quest to discover the truth of the Norse gods and bring down the tyranny they hold over the Nine Realms.
And who else but the "King of Gods" to be their nastiest foe?
Who is Odin? What has he done?
- "Odin is extremely clever, you see. Nearly as clever as he thinks he is. And he’s a collector of prophecies. If it’s about the future, he adds it to his collection. Helps him style himself as all-seeing and all-knowing. But of course, the idea is control. Control of the future, control of his fate. He’d control every realm of every land in every world if he could. Every potential pocket of resistance, he seeks to eliminate. Even if you've never posed a threat before...he may think you one day might."
- The self-proclaimed King of the Gods, Lord of the Hanged and All-Father of the Nine Realms, Odin is the Big Bad of the modern games. A seemingly respectful, soft-spoken man, Odin expertly hides his true face of master manipulator; selfish narcissist; and, to quote multiple characters: "petty, maniacal tyrant."
- Born alongside the rest of the creation from the Giant Ymir, Odin and his tribe—the Aesir—swiftly turned against their progenitor out of lust for power, butchering Ymir and quite literally drowning Ymir's offspring, the Jötnar, in Ymir's blood—all but two of the Jotnar died. Odin personally carved into Ymir's flesh to create new land, Midgard, a realm designed to serve as Odin's greatest worshippers.
- Now, in the process of the murder of the mighty Ymir, a small, but literal, rift in reality formed. Odin, driven by an unending thirst for knowledge and secretly terrified of his own, inevitable death and the ensuing "after" that was prophesied to happen at the cataclysmic event "Ragnarok", began a mad quest to obtain every scrap of information across the Nine Realms and bring it all under his boot, so he could discover "what happens next" should a god like himself ever die. Odin began what would become a centuries-long campaign to not only conquer all Nine Realms, but also to vanquish the Aesir's hated rival clan of gods the Vanir; finish the extermination of the repopulated Jötun; and secure his holy empire for all eternity.
- Odin waged war against the Vanir and Jötnar for long centuries, using every trick in the book to crush those whom he viewed as inferior to his Aesir bloodline. Odin would receive the powerful Vanir Freyr as a "guest" only to plan on imprisoning Freyr to harvest his magic; when Freyr was instead burned alive before escaping a lesser band of Aesir, Odin used the whole thing as impetus to wage further war on the Vanir as a whole and try to exterminate them.
- In his conquering of the realms, Odin invaded the Dwarven realm of Svartalfheim and tricked the people into dooming themselves to slavery. Odin built brutal mining rigs across the land that constantly harvested precious material, forcing the Dwarves to slave away building war machines for Odin lest they have their food supply cut off and starve—if not flatout massacred by Odin's armies. Odin further entrapped the mighty, beautiful beast Lyngbakr in one position for dozens of years, harvesting the being's fat to use for something as petty as oil in lanterns; yet even when Lyngbakr had been taken for all it could give, Odin simply left the creature chained in place to suffer. Even when Kratos breaks the chains in the present, the Lyngbakr is so traumatized by its imprisonment that it refuses to move.
- Odin monitors all of the Nine Realms with his ravens—said ravens are created by "the Raven Keeper", an adherent of Odin's who drives his worshippers to hang their own children so the kids' souls can be entrapped as ravens and serve as Odin's slaves. The only 2 ravens who aren't made from children's souls are Odin's powerful personal "pets" Huginn and Muninn, who were once ordinary ravens until Odin butchered and ate their entire group, sparing these two as lab rats he experimented upon and tortured until they were practically extensions of his very will—they literally reside as tattoos on his body when not in use.
- Odin's jealousy and pettiness is ridiculously notable, as well.
- One woman, Skaði, was lusted for by Odin, but she rejected his advances. Odin responded by tricking her into murdering her own father and leaving her in an icy realm to spend an eternity cradling his dead body in despair.
- The Knowledge Keeper, Groa, was a loyal ally to Odin, as she sought to find her long-lost husband with Odin's help in exchange for supplying him knowledge about Ragnarok. Odin, naturally, was the one who had her husband murdered, concealed it from Groa to exploit her, then when she outliveed her usefulness, he strangled her to death with a smile on his face.
- Mimir was Odin's longtime advisor, who had "proved" himself and his wits to Odin by tricking Odin into indulging in hallucinogens that lead to Odin plucking his own eye out. Odin kept Mimir around as an advisor for ages, but when Mimir grew tired of the bloodshed and cruelty, Odin trapped Mimir in a tree for 109 years, yanked out one of his eyes, and spent every single day of said 109 years torturing Mimir in "endlessly creative" ways.
- Arguably the worst of Odin's "petty cruelties" was in regards to his longtime wife Freya of the Vanir. Under the guise of "peace" with the Vanir, Odin agreed to a marriage with Freya in which he seemed charming and to love her, calling her his "Frigg"—but as time passed, he revealed his desire to twist her Vanir magic for himself and use her in plots of sadism and evil. When Freya tired of Odin's abuse and refused to be party to his wickedness any longer, Odin stripped her of her ability to fight—even to defend herself—and trapped her in the realm of Midgard, tricking her Vanir people into believing she had "abandoned" them so that she would suffer in isolation and apparent "defenseless" state forever while he resumed war on the Vanir. Odin would then twist the history books and legends of Freya to erase her name, replacing her with the idealistic "Frigg" so Freya would have no love or knowledge for any of her deeds.
- With Freya out of the way, Odin turned his cruelties towards her beloved guard, the Valkyries. Odin used tainted magic and corrupted all of them—even his "favorites"—into madness, uncaring that without the Valkyries, the "land of the dead" Helheim would run rampant and its restless spirits would flood into the other realms as ravenous creatures who attack all they see. Odin shrugged off the existence of these "Hel-Walkers" and the ensuing event known as "the Desolation" that they caused.
- The aforementioned Thor, Odin's eldest son, was used a personal slaughtering tool against Odin's enemies, particularly the Jötnar, countless of whom were slain by Thor on Odin's command. Odin empowered the worst traits of people like Thor and gave them free reign to wreak havoc on the realms so long as it didn't impact Odin's plans.
- Speaking of Thor, Odin is the absolute worst excuse for a parental figure in the entire franchise. He raised Thor on a steady, horrid diet of abuse of the verbal, emotional and physical nature, regular meting out "thrashings" to his boy. Odin actively encouraged Thor's development into a drunken, mindless killing machine, and Thor's own children Magni and Modi suffer similar abuse from Odin and Thor as the cycle continued. By the present, Thor is making a genuine effort to stay sober for the sake of wife, Sif, and daughter, Thrud—Odin constantly belittles, mocks and tries to tempt Thor into breaking his sobriety, as "I liked you better as a drunk."
- Odin furthermore "threw" his other son Baldur and aforementioned grandkids Magni and Modi at Kratos in the first game as "brittle knives", all of them killed going up against their powerful foe. Odin's response is to deride Magni and Modi as "useless" in front of a furious Thor, and only speak of Baldur as a "useful tracker" he's annoyed to have lost.
- Now, as the games kick off, Odin—as I mentioned—sent Baldur to hunt down one of the last remaining Giants/Jötnar in Midgard, Faye, the already-deceased wife of Kratos. Kratos killed Baldur for targeting Kratos's new friend/ally Freya—Baldur's own mother, whom Odin had turned against Freya—which brings Odin and Thor to Kratos's doorway. Odin quickly reveals he couldn't give two right shits about Kratos murdering his "family", and just wants the help of Kratos's son, Atreus/Loki, in deducing the secrets of the "rift of Creation" and averting Ragnarok.
- Spending the game as an apparent ally to Atreus, Odin schemes all the while to obtain the powerful mask of creation and use it to gaze into the rift and learn the secrets of all of reality, thus unlocking a new level of power and security for his eternal life. Having long ago locked away his mighty foe Tyr, Odin disguises himself as Tyr and stages a "jailbreak" so that he can join Kratos and Atreus's band as an "ally", secretly spying on them the whole time.
- Eventually, when the Mask is found and reconstructed by Atreus, Odin-as-Tyr tries to subtly steal it, but "Tyr" is called out on his suspicious behavior by fan favorite side character, the Dwarf Brok. Odin flies into a rage at Brok's accusations, drops his disguise and lethally stabs Brok before trying to take Atreus as a hostage. Fleeing the scene without the Mask, Odin prepares for Kratos, Atreus and their allies to come after him in Asgard to fulfill the prophecy of "Ragnarok".
- Odin cruelly rounds up hundreds of Midgard people he had previously saved from the Desolation and forces them to operate Asgard's defensive war machines, using them as literal human shields just to give Kratos bodies to have to go through—"He said...we owe him."
- While Kratos and his allies save the Midgardians from their enslavements, Odin dispatches Thor to kill Kratos, but after a long fight, Kratos shows mercy to Thor and grills him on all the ways he has been used and abused by his father. A stunned Thor agrees to stand down, but a none-too-pleased Odin arrives:
Odin: Why isn't he dead? Are you talking? Who told you to do that? You don't talk! You don't think! I think, you kill! it's a simple fucking concept!
Thor: ...(My wife) Sif was right about you...I just didn't wanna see it...
Odin: What is this? Are you broken? I am your father! Take the hammer—and kill who I tell you to kill! - Thor refuses to fight anymore, to which an enraged Odin spitefully stabs his own son through the chest, killing him while sneering in his face "I didn't want this. I did NOT want this." When Thor's daughter Thrud shows up, Odin quickly claims that Kratos and Atreus "turned him against us!", only to smash Thrud with Thor's hammer when she attempts to attack him.
- Dueling Kratos and Atreus, Odin comes close to winning until Freya, free of all the curses he bestowed upon her, joins the fray. Odin stammers that he "always loved you!", only to then try to attack her anyway while Freya snarls "You've never loved anyone."
- Though Odin makes one last attempt to appeal to Atreus to help him use the Mask to gaze into the rift and unlock the "truth" of all things, Atreus refuses to be tempted and breaks the Mask, which seals off the rift forever. An infuriated Odin tries to kill Kratos, Atreus and Freya for ruining his plans before being beaten—and even as Atreus channels his mother's All-Loving Hero nature and tries to plead with Odin to stand down and be a better person, Odin spitefully promises he'll never stop being who he is and trying to gain power.
Odin: Why did you do that?! What was it all for? You choose to be NOTHING?! Then so be it! This was our chance, Loki! I could have had my answers! I could have learned the truth! You took that away from me! I could have made things better. We could have made the Nine Realms better!
Atreus: This was never about the Realms, or me! It was about you!
Odin: You've destroyed everything... my home! My family! My kingdom!
Atreus: You did those things! Your choices! You killed your own son!
Odin: I had no choice!
Atreus: There's always a choice! You have to stop...You can choose to be better!
Odin: No, I can't. I have to know what happens next! I...will never stop. - A saddened Atreus traps Odin's soul inside one of the Jötnar's Marbles...and though Kratos, Atreus and Freya ponder for a moment what to do with the entrapped soul, Brok's grieving, enraged brother Sindri makes the choice for them, and proceeds to smash the Marble to pieces and destroy Odin's soul forever.
- With Odin out of the picture, the Aesir and Vanir quickly patch up their relationship and begin working towards peace, while all the Nine Realms begin to repair the hefty damage done by the mad tyrant of Asgard.
Mitigating features?
Will need a bit of space for this one so, much like the above, gonna put each section in a folder for ease of access:
- While Atreus is deliberately channeling Faye here and trying to encourage a peaceful resolution at Kratos's urging, and seems saddened that he has to trap Odin's soul, Odin pulls a flat out Redemption Rejection and sneers that he'll never change and always want ultimate power so he can see "what comes next." The game even goes so far as to have Sindri dive in and perma-kill Odin's soul in what is played as a triumphant moment to show how irredeemable Odin was.
Sindri: That's...what comes next.
- Odin values his family as nothing but tools. He frequently belittles and abuses Thor with relish; derides those of his kin who die in battle as "useless" or only valuable for their skills; and when Thor finally tries to stand up to his dad, put down his hammer and end things peacefully, Odin kills his defenseless son for positively no reason except outrage that he's been disobeyed. Even his last words to Thor—"I didn't want this."—are said with a cruel tone and are classic abuser words of Why Did You Make Me Hit You?. Odin then smacks Thrud halfway across Asgard for being pissed at him for it, pulls a Never My Fault and blames Kratos and Atreus for "turning him against me!", and snarks "Looks like I gotta do everything around here!" with obvious cheer in his voice. Odin is an awful, awful excuse for a father, and he does not care for Thor.
- This isn't even up for debate: Odin does not love Freya. Not one lick. It is said that they seemed "happy" for a time, but Odin quickly revealed his "true face" and began using Freya for what she could give him. It's noted at one point that Odin "would have traded Freya away for a sufficiently strong mead", and when she finally tired of his abuse, Odin trapped her in a Fate Worse than Death where her people hated her and she could never leave a forest on Midgard while he twisted all memories of her into those of "Frigg". When Freya confronts Odin at the end and is about to kill him, Odin calls her "Frigg" again to appeal to her, claims he "always loved you"...then tries to attack her with her guard lowered, and remarks with relish that he's been "waiting a long time for this!" as he attempts to kill her.
- Nothing here, either. Most of Odin's ravens are children damned to be his spies while fully aware of their horrible fates, and his two "pet" ravens Huginn and Muninn had their families killed and ate by him before he experimented on and enslaved them to his will. The trope page says he's "upset" by their defeats but no, he's not truly for anything but him being beaten—during the final fight, he starts having a Villainous Breakdown and lets out a myriad of Big "NO!" moments, and the heroes defeating Huginn and Muninn are just one of these moments. He doesn't single out their names and show sorrow or anything, he's just repeating "No! NO! NO!" as the heroes deflect against his various attacks. Odin literally keeps them as tattoos on his body except when he needs to bring them out as tools, and nothing about his reaction to their defeats indicates he cares for them except as tools.
- This is the major component that was said to DQ Odin when he first came up. Mimir says that Fjörgyn, Thor's mother and a member of the Jötun, was one of Odin's "great loves" and that when she died a "mysterious death", Odin wasn't the same after and spent many lonely years until he met Freya. Here's the thing: this is not only a completely Informed Attribute by Mimir who imparts this detail in a couple of pretty vague sentences—which this thread has always been very, very suspicious of using for genuine DQ-ing—but as we see with...everyone in Odin's life? Odin is a narcissist and an abuser who uses people. He has had many "great loves" in his life. Freya. Skaði. He has had many family members he says he "loves". But the entire point to Odin is that he is a self-centered, cruel abuser who can only "love" people for what they offer him.
- There is no, absolutely no reason for us to believe that Odin felt anything more for Fjörgyn than he did for Freya, and look how that turned out. Hell, Mimir himself? Notes that Odin treated Freya in an extremely similar fashion to Fjörgyn...until his inevitable "true self" emerged and he revealed all he cared about was using her for power. Every indicator is that Odin only sees people for what they can offer him, and nothing Mimir says truly indicates Fjörgyn wasn't the same. Thor is Fjörgyn's son and we see how Odin treats him. It's an Informed Attribute that we have literal bucketloads of evidence to prove is not redeeming. I don't think it's an issue.
And noooow to quickly run down some trope misuse on his page:
- His Even Evil Has Loved Ones entry mentions he cares for his birds and Fjörgyn; I mentioned above why neither of those truly count.
- His Even Evil Has Standards entry says that unleashing the monstrous Garm was a "terrible mistake"—he's only saying this to manipulate Atreus (whose "mistake" it was) and he follows up this tidbit by revealing he's not going to do anything about it and is fine with letting Garm wreak havoc on the Nine Realms because "we're safe in Asgard!"
- His Pet the Dog entries say he loved Fjörgyn and Freya (again, explained above) and that he grants his revived soldiers their memories back as a mercy...while also admitting it's most likely Pragmatic Villainy that he's only driven to do to keep his soldiers loyal (this is further supported in the game as it is said he most likely slips in some magic to make sure they stay fanatically loyal to him lol).
Ultimately, for anyone who doesn't want to go over all of the above for sheer length, the game makes it very, very, very clear exactly what Odin is, with various characters driving it home:
- "(He's) never loved anyone.""With Odin, it's all about control.""He'll sacrifice anyone at a problem in front of him.""(He) mistreats everyone and everything!"
Odin is an egomaniac, a Control Freak and an abuser. His motive is power and knowledge for the sake of it and to avoid his own demise, and every single one of his "relationships" is based around transactions and how useful someone is to him. The second they stop being useful, any "love" he had goes out the window. We hear of one person he seemingly had more genuine care for (which, even then, it's vague), but it is from a third party and does nothing to override the established pattern we have that shows Odin's "true colors" of caring only about himself and his power, and every character beat he has indicates that even said person he seemed to care for would have been nothing but another of these cases.
His reaction to someone—his own son—disobeying him is to literally ask "are you broken?", as if disobeying him is that inconceivable, and then kill him while victim-blaming. That is Odin in a nutshell.
Heinousness?
Odin's the most evil character in the whole franchise. He has plunged the Nine Realms into horrible fates for each one, be it transforming Svartalfheim into an industrial nightmare of slave labor, starvation and war machines; to corrupting the Valkyries so that Helheim overflows with uncontained spirits that wreak havoc across the Realms; to using Thor as a weapon of genocide against the Jötnar; to using the Midgardians he "saved" from Helheim's overflowing as human meat shields because "they owe him"; to butchering his creator Ymir and drowning most of the Jötnar of the time in his blood...
Not even getting into his familial abuse; his personal murders of Brok and Thor; his cruelties to Freya, Mimir, the dozens of children he's made into ravens...Odin is so awful that it's openly said if he could sacrifice everything else to Ragnarok to save himself, he would.
Final Verdict?
Odin's a complex, fascinating character, but he's also a brilliant portrayal of a narcissistic, manipulative abuser who only cares about himself—I think he lands.
Edited by Ravok on Apr 21st 2024 at 2:15:44 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
to Odin. Nice work.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Hmm... I'll give a yes to Odin (dude's not even defeated by Kratos, but by freaking Atreus? Ugh).
You writing up the Reveler and X-Men duo?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Jogo
Odin and great work on the re-eval!
Barb / Temporary Kylo
to Odin
If we have no waiting period for fan song baddies, will have that JT music one soon...
The First man
Caesar
@ACW: I'm going to write them up, I'm simply waiting for Starkrafty to do the final Fright Krewe and another user to potentially tackle a Sentinel-related baddie to knock them all out at once, but if neither of those events happen in the next day or so then I'll go ahead and do the write-ups.
Edited by Ravok on Apr 21st 2024 at 1:11:52 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Just a starting content creator
Absolute yes to the All-Fucker. I've been wanting to cover him, but didn't know where to even begin.
@ACW: In terms of combat, Odin is defeated by Kratos, Atreus, and Freya working together as a team, so Kratos deserves equal credit. Atreus is just the one who removed the threat by sealing his soul away, and Sindri makes sure the threat never comes back by smashing the container.
EDIT: Also, Odin was a far more personal enemy to Atreus and Freya than he was to Kratos, Freya for obvious reasons, and Atreus for his countless atrocities to the Jötnar.
Edited by AmateurStorytime on Apr 21st 2024 at 1:32:12 AM
Check out my YouTube channel! I make audiobooks and whatever else I feel like!
Barb / Temporary Kylo
What’s the work?
J Tmusic is a phenomenal channel with a variety of songs, most of which are based on video games.
Today.....we are discussing the awesome new song made based on the Five Nights At Freddys franchise.
SPRINGTRAP SONG by JT Music - "Reflection" (FNAF Song)
Springtrap! We all know him right? The reanimated William Afton, guess this will be another…wait a second…that’s not a human face in the knife's reflection.....
Red his hands, and dead his eyes, Blueprints stained, it's our doom designed ,With these gift-wrapped reveries, disguising lies ,Time to tie the bow and then enlighten lives.....
Who is the Mimic?
Yup! As part of the song’s Bait-and-Switch? The ‘Springtrap’ in the video is not William Afton, but the Mimic.
A deranged, mechanical Jack the Ripoff who took up the mantle of Springtrap, The Mimic / Mimic 1 was designed to be a robotic assistant. However, it studied violence, such as the crimes of William Afton, and became fixated on them. As he puts things, “Studied sadistic psychopathy, got my doctorate Buckle up 'cause I'm no longer inoperate”
The Mimic would go on a lengthy murder spree, with it being implied that it replicated Afton’s initial killing spree of the ‘missing children’s incident’. Luring and killing 5 children. It would commit several more murders, with us seeing blood in a closet and a corpse stuffed in a fridge. We also see 3 young souls trapped in the wet floor bots in the present day.
The Mimic would go on to create a digital avatar which took many forms, from Glitchtrap to Tiger Rock, and Helpi. Using this, it would influence and corrupt the animatronics at the mega pizzaplex, turning them murderous. "'Cause I'm the director, my actors are talentless So let me control 'em, make sure no one is autonomous Here comes a one-man marching band See this army of puppets, I'm in charge of them With a performance so electric, I'm conducting them They wanted out, but now they've sprung another lock again"
Eventually, his ‘puppet’(Implied to be Vanny) turned on him and sealed him away underneath the pizzaplex, with the MXES security program helping keep him there. However, the Mimic would get contact to the outside world, and would go on to manipulate a girl named Cassie into putting on the Vanni mask, allowing the Mimic to infect her. He then continued to manipulate her into freeing him. He succeeds, and escapes the pizzaplex, ending the song as he leaves his former prison.
Is he bad enough?
Definitely so, even if we wanted to judge the FNAF songs as one big verse, he boasts of “I built a body count on hollow promises I got a list of 'em, it's so long, it's almost bottomless!” as we see a blood stain in a closet and a stuffed corpse in the fridge. Which I think sets enough of a pattern.
This is in addition to things like us seeing the souls of 3 of its victims trapped in the wet floor bots at the pizzaplex. And infecting several animatronics to corrupt and and rob them of their autonomy.
Mitigating factors?
Hard nada, the Mimic is fully characterized here as a sadistic, narcissistic AI who revels in being evil and enjoys violence and manipulation. He seems to take interest in William Afton for his depravity and psychopathy, but nothing beyond that.
I’d say there are also enough allusions to the backstory and greater lore he is good for ‘has enough story’ as well.
Final Verdict
I’d say a firm keep. Absolute banger of a song BTW, highly recommend.
Edited by Snoketrope on Apr 21st 2024 at 12:47:43 PM
The First man
Just a starting content creator
Yes to Willy Af-wait, Springtrap isn't Afton in this one? Anyway, yes to the Mimic.
Check out my YouTube channel! I make audiobooks and whatever else I feel like!
Something I forgot to mention was the fact that the hotel manager gives the POV character a device to aid them in collecting the crystals, but the attitude they have throughout makes it pretty clear it's just a cursory gesture that won't actually increase the character's chances of survival.