Old Magnificent Bastard thread
Welcome to the Magnificent Bastard (MB) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List
Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a MB has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's MBs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any MB link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an MB link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved MBs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their MB equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:36:43 AM
I agree with the previous person. Louis James Moriarty is a major character and should be considered viable. I think he fits all of tropes. Even as a child, he was willing to scar his own face for credibility (intelligence, quick thinking) and continues to have some schemes throughout the series. Similar to his brothers, he does villainous things for moral purposes (not too detestable, bastard). Although there's jokes made about him same as all of the characters, Louis is a character that does act with dignity and isn't the laughingstock of the series. He's clearly charming to the audience. He was rated third in both popularity polls.
Oya oya oya
I already made one good long argument for Louis already to get him confirmed in the first place, although I could do another one (see: Louis's plans were special enough to take down Moran, so they're pretty special if he's an MB; and at least in my fandom circles, fans were certainly not that interested in Sherlock's return while Louis was acting when those chapters were releasing).
But re-litigating that isn't even my point. What I would like to understand is what standard is being used here, because Louis and Robespierre/Sherringford are on wildly different ends of the spectrum of "doing things" and Louis didn't, but Sherringford apparently did despite not being a character and the reader having virtually no details on how his plan worked or what obstacles he over came.
That seems very inconsistent to me. I would like, one way or another, a way to square why one counts and one doesn't, when this is a metric being used for Louis. Can someone please explain to me the internal consistency behind these decisions, or can we re-align them to something that does?
Edited by Eiryu on Apr 29th 2024 at 4:51:16 AM
Question: in the One Piece thread, I saw that Eustass Kidd has an entry. Does he still count despite what happened in his last appearance?
Jogo
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
We decided to wait until the current arc ends before we make a decision on Useless Captain Mid Kidd, though he's on thin ice right now.
Edited by jlvs200s on May 1st 2024 at 1:28:56 PM
"Stand proud, Sukuna, you are strong." | He/Him
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Characters.Rambo John Rambo and Characters.Pirates Of The Caribbean Captain Jack Sparrow are now a redirect. So, what should we pothole for their entry?
Edited by Bullman on Apr 29th 2024 at 8:45:08 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
My suggestions are War Hero for the former and Friendly Pirate for the latter.
I’ll take a potato chip… and EAT IT!
War Hero sounds good but Will Turner already has Friendly Pirate potholed to his name. How about The Ace instead?
In honor of Akira Toriyama
That could work, though I'll also propose Lovable Rogue for Jack.
I’ll take a potato chip… and EAT IT!
I actually like that really well. ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Lovable Rogue
I’ve got one from Digimon Fusion:
“AxeKnightmon is an enigmatic member of the Midnight Army led by Nene Amano. In reality, he manipulated Nene by holding her younger brother Ewan hostage, making him the true leader. Once he regains complete control of the Darkness Loader, his own invention, he assimilates the Midnight Army into the Bagra Empire, headed by his older brother Lord Bagra, so he could be one more step closer to victory. Creator of DigiFuse and originator of the D5 plan, AxeKnightmon runs every single side for his own gain, culminating in using the unified Fusion Fighters as decoys to distract Bagramon in the climax before stabbing him in the back and absorbing him to begin his conquest. Holding himself with an air of gentlemanly confidence even as he schemes, AxeKnightmon cemented himself as one of the most memorable strategists in the war.”
Now, don’t get me wrong. All the things here are true and Axe Knightmon is a brilliant villain. (I watched Fusion a lot as a kid)
…But, what this writeup (I can’t find the original EP) leaves out is… Well, ultimately Axe Knightmon gets outplayed. Badly. Once he absorbs Bagra, he finds he’s not as powerful as he expected, because… Bagra knew he would betray him, and had already prepared for it, and ends up turning his own absorption against him. The Lord Bagra writeup already goes into this, actually:
“Older brother of AxeKnightmon, he suspected his sibling's treachery since the very beginning but played along even after being backstabbed. Congratulating and critiquing AxeKnightmon in the same sentence, Lord Bagra reclaims his title as the ultimate enemy by turning the absorption around from the inside out and remanifesting as DarknessBagramon.”
Does that automatically mean he gets cut? No, but it’s still a pretty humiliating note for him to end on, I think.
Edited by Koopa22 on Apr 30th 2024 at 2:06:35 PM
Simultaneously hands-on and hands-off with my life.
More Good News, Bad News... another keep, and cut
Keep
I noticed Commander Artemisia from the 300 sequel on the "Former MB" pile and was like, "...what?" — well, turns out it's one of G's.
I've seen that movie in theaters, and more than once (on television), and most of its key scenes are on the tube... personally I'll vouch for Artemisia. Her ruthlessness and cruelty is there, but so is her tragic past as a Sex Slave, loyalty to the Persians, desire to avenge her adoptive father, etc etc. besides scoring a major victory for the Persians by sacrificing some of her men to wipe out an entire Greek fleet.
The only downgrade is that she gets seduced by the MC and in the final battle she gets an "ohshitohshitimmagonnadie" look on her face when the MC bests her in battle, but I doubt that's too much of a disqualifier.
Cut
Mercury Rising - just discussed this over the CM Cleanup, now for the MB.
Continued from the Complete Monster thread (seen here)... it turns out besides overblowing Nicholas Kudrow's atrocity to qualify Kudrow as a CM, future also does the same to Peter Burrell's magnificence to make him a MB.
EP here, writeup's on the YMMV page, but having seen the film myself Burrell's deeds are...
- He attempts killing a boy and the boy's parents, only managing to kill the latter. The kid escapes using one of the oldest trick in the book (hiding in the attic crawlspace); Burrell also murders both unarmed parents in cold blood, hardly a "magnificent deed", before making the crime scene look like a murder-suicide... this happens in tons and tons of shows in the Police Procedural, Criminal Procedural and Forensic Drama as well as in real life.
- Burrell managed to bluff hospital authorities after the boy made off with the MC, into deducing the MC's location. Another standard plot-point in countless thrillers, it's not even a Batman Gambit or anything.
- Assassinating two FBI agents affiliated with the MC, but again that's a pretty standard thriller plot. Burrell also managed to remove all evidence after one of his hits, but once again its common enough to be a trope.
- Burrell does refrain from shooting the MC in a public square during another hit, I'll give him that. But "Not shooting innocent people" doesn't really equate "magnificent".
- In the final shootout, Burrell fires away at some FBI redshirts.
- What the write-up didn't mention is Burrell's ridiculosuly anticlimatic death; the FBI had stopped shooting, yet Burrell somehow feels the need to break cover; a bunch of nearby glass panels were cracked in the earlier gunfight leading to Burrell getting himself shredded comically like a lettuce... by accident. Yeah, neither the FBI or the MC killed him, Burrell panicked and unintentionally offs himself. *EDIT*: Also to note: Burrell's death can be avoided if he stood still... watch the clip above again. The guy panics and borderline wets himself by running in front of each glass pane (why is he even running? Nobody's shooting at his direction...) the precise moment each of them shatters, so he catches 80% of the glass with his face.
- The same writeup briefly mentions Burrell is smarter than his boss, evidenced by "advising Kudrow on dealing with things..." but Colonel Kudrow is Stupid Evil anyways, hardly a high bar.
From the old EP, there's usage of selective words like "so he could operate with both impunity and anonymity", "calm, cool and collected guy and a tactical expert whose not easy to outsmart and beat", "while his intelligence comes from combative techniques, it still makes him a hard man to overcome—and while an instrument used by Kudrow for his agenda, Burrell is still invaluable as the man in the field"... again, having seen the film, he's just a generic dragon who's a higher-ranked yes-man to the Big Bad.
Edited by RobertTYL on May 1st 2024 at 7:18:24 PM
Goku Black
Don't mind cutting Burrel. He doesn't sound that impressive.
Ah, I see. And yeah, looking at the argument here… I think I can roll with that. Nevermind!
Not the Eye
Cut Burell
Keep AxeKnightmon, cut Burrel.
The Draftsman of Doom
Speaking as someone autistic, I find Rob's condescending notion that autistic people are somehow less intelligent extremely degrading.
I am therefore abstaining on Burell out of spite.
I apologize if I seem passive aggressive.
Edited by SkyCat32 on May 1st 2024 at 3:47:33 PM
Feels good, don't it?
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Abstaining on Burrell.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Cut Burrel.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Honestly Burrell might be fine. Yes the cut proposal is offensive in parts but even beyond that it seems biased against the character (someone hid in an attic, therefore he’s an easily outsmarted moron) and it discredits any trick he pulls by saying it’s common (not an argument I’d use, all the gambit tropes are definitionally “common enough” to be tropes, so I don’t understand why we’re saying Burrell should be docked points when the fact of the matter is he uses trickery to forward his goals). I might review his death scene later but honestly, I’m not finding myself inclined to support removing him from the trope based on the counter above.
Not the Eye
Gonna switch abstain on the Burrell.
A Girl, Just One of Many Kinds
Keep Burrell, and also don’t know why the kid being autistic matters..…
Keep Fighting. Keep Loving.
Okay… unless I’m missing something he’s got a helicopter behind him that opens fire and runs to dodge the shots. His death is fine, frankly this seems to be a really fixated microanalysis of the character to present him in the worst light. I’m not gonna bother to speculate on the why but I’m gonna honestly say keep Burrell and leave it there.
Yeah, having just taken a peek at the scene I don't see what's undignified about his death. Switching to keep on Burrel.
Also yeah, not really liking how condescending the post feels...
Okay. Can accept I lost. Can someone explain the Robespierre/Louis situation? Why does a name who was only mentioned in exposition in one chapter count as having done enough to qualify when a major character with multiple independent plans he carries out on page…not? No one has commented on that.