Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Eh, I could take him or leave him.
Also, regarding Carnage, at some point we're probably gonna have to like give him his own folder and have each work be a separate entry, like Palpatine or Tarkin.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Never mind.
Edited by Fireball246 on Feb 7th 2023 at 4:29:01 AM
Classy, Refined, Unstable
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I had already brought up that concern, people said he's fine to keep.
Barb / Temporary Kylo
That came up a while ago. We ultimately ruled him a keep.
I'll abstain on the detective guy for now. I think I leaned keep before sense he does not have any competition in the film itself and such. But I'll think on that.
Edited by Snoketrope on Feb 7th 2023 at 4:23:17 AM
The First man
Not the Eye
Abstain on driscoll
For Carnage, yeah it does seem worth adding, but yeah best to wait. I myself have one marvel guy on wait and see for potential expansion.
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Driscoll EP. The EP doesn't note that it's in a shared universe. How connected are the films with each other?
For a guy who has the resources to convert a casino into a drug operation his crimes seem a bit lacking minus the Gloria bit tbh.
Edited by WetFlannels on Feb 7th 2023 at 12:35:34 PM
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Barb / Temporary Kylo
It does not share a Universe with those films. Mir just brought up other villains that were somewhat like him.
Edited by Snoketrope on Feb 7th 2023 at 4:34:27 AM
The First man
The wifi here sucks
I was the one who brought him up before and my opinion hasn't changed. Driscol is seriously lacking given his resources and the genre standard for action comedy films.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Since The Last of Us is on my mind given its HBO adaptation, I wanted to offer a rewrite for a character from the original game. Some of the information from the current entry is factually inaccurate and the rewrite would correct that and add some additional crimes.
SPOILER WARNING FOR The Last of Us. Since I have no idea how closely this will align with The Last of Us (2023), both the original entry, my suggested rewrite, and any other information from the game will be spoiled out.
Original entry:
- The seemingly kindhearted David is really a sinister cult leader in the post-apocalyptic, zombie-infested world. He orders his men to raid a university, having them steal—and later kill—the horse Callus and leaves Joel in excruciating pain. He later reveals himself to be a cannibal, feeding human meat to his unsuspecting followers and with many previous victims. Becoming obsessed with the teenaged Ellie, David states his intent to use her to repopulate the world, and when she escapes from his clutches, he sends waves of his men to track her down, apathetic to their ensuing deaths. In his final confrontation with Ellie, David shows his full depravity, thanking her for killing his men and making his group stronger, in his own words, and trying to rape and kill her personally. Even among a cast of morally gray characters, David's actions and personality show him to be utterly irredeemable and the most heinous of all the enemies faced by Joel and Ellie.
Major inaccuracies with this are 1) there are no indications David's group is being fed human meat unwittingly. If anything, it seems impossible for him to hide it since he sends out groups to kill survivors and collect their bodies as food, and there are larders and records of meat collected. 2) David's Ambiguously Christian, but the group he leads isn't a cult. They definitely don't worship David specifically, in fact, his action's endangering the group has some of them saying they should put his leadership up to a vote once the current crisis is over. 3) David never specifically says he wants to use Ellie to repopulate the world, that's his VA's interpretation of the character. In fact, one of David's men says Ellie isn't the first girl he's targeted, just the latest, specifically he refers to Ellie as "David's newest pet."
Here's my proposed rewrite:
- David, a seemingly kindhearted survivor, is really the leader of a group of cannibals in the post-apocalyptic, zombie-infested world. David sends out hunting parties, having his men murder other survivors on sight, including children, to retrieve their bodies for meat. Becoming obsessed with the teenaged Ellie, David has preyed on other girls in the past, with one of his followers referring to Ellie as his "newest pet." Having sent waves of men to capture her despite knowing how dangerous she is, David is apathetic to their ensuing deaths, even thanking Ellie for killing them and making his group stronger. When Ellie rejects his advances by breaking his finger, David tries to chop her up for meat, and, in their final confrontation, shows his full depravity by attempting to rape and murder her. Even among a cast of morally gray characters, David's actions and personality show him to be utterly irredeemable and the most heinous of all the enemies faced by Joel and Ellie.
Cut Driscoll
RIP Toriyama
Cut Driscoll. Great to see you again, Exister, hope all's been well! I very much approve of the TLOU rewrite, fingers crossed he manages to land in the stellar HBO show so we another one of 'im.
Edited by Ravok on Feb 7th 2023 at 7:09:50 AM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Lucas the Dreamer
Does Patrick Bateman from American Psycho even count since it’s unclear if his crimes are real or imagined.
Why waste time when you can see the last sunset last?
RIP Toriyama
Yeah he counts, at the end of the day the ambiguity is very, very light and the ultimate implication is that most of his crimes are real. The filmmakers explicitly confirmed this was the case in the movie, at least, and Ellis's original novel supplies enough details to glean that it's not all in his head. Some of it might be, as the write-up suggests, but the overall majority of his actions are meant to be taken at face value for the brutality that they are.
Edited by Ravok on Feb 7th 2023 at 7:40:00 AM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
The Draftsman of Doom
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to the David re-write
I also saw that movie myself too and I also vote to cut Driscoll. It doesn't help that Driscoll has a son and seems to be a decent parent to him (Driscoll's relationship with said son isn't shown that much other than dropping him to his ex-wive and telling him to wait in the car but we never seen Driscoll be abusive to him)
Edited by G-Editor on Feb 7th 2023 at 11:59:32 AM
Lucas the Dreamer
Patrick Bateman in the musical also has a Pet the Dog moment listed under “Heartwarming Moments” where he promises his secretary a promotion and thinks her for putting up with him. Nothing in the entry indicates that he had ulterior motives.
Why waste time when you can see the last sunset last?
Bateman in the musical brags he's not capable of loving anyone. Quoting the effortpost: "Bateman outright proclaims he acts on his whims moments earlier, and Jean serves as the most appealing person to his narcissism in the story: she's the only person who sees him as "special", and that's what makes her "good" in his eyes and worth sparing, because she appeals to his ego and desire to be "seen." "
Barb / Temporary Kylo
Honesty with Bateman's crimes possibly being imaginary, even if we were to say they were? We have allowed Story Within a Story cases before. So even if we were to say it might have been imagined, we get more then enough detail on them to put him up as he appears in his fantasies. And we also go by intent, Bateman clearly thinks all this is real and that he is actually killing people and doing these things.
The First man
There are 2 villains that I doubt even qualify as Complete Monsters which are Lotso from Toy Story 3 and The Lich from Adventure Time. Here's why I'm skeptical about those two being listed as Complete Monsters.
Even though Lotso and The Lich are pretty heinous and lack redeeming qualities, they seem to be only taken 99% seriously.
With Lotso, his defeat was played for laughs, especially since he was laughed at (in-universe) after he was strapped to a garbage truck and told by a frog to "keep his mouth shut".
As for the Lich, there was a scene with Jake the Dog putting a cup on the Lich's head and then laughing at him and calling him a "dingus".
Links to each comedic scene for both of them:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYzFcBd8Bu8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dz79IQfR0MM
Do they still qualify for tropes like Knight of Cerebus or Vile Villain, Saccharine Show? Sure. But what about Complete Monster? IMO, not quite. As I said, I feel like they're only taken 99% seriously in-universe rather than taken 100% seriously in-universe and they should probably get cut sooner or later.
And yes, I know that a Complete Monster can be comedic, but they're also taken completely seriously (in-universe).
Thoughts?
Edited by ComputeryGuy1614 on Feb 8th 2023 at 9:25:40 PM
Not the Eye
It is not big problem. As stated they are still taken seriously 99% of the time. There is nothing stating that CM can’t have joke or two at their expense as long as their deeds are played seriously.
I'm pretty sure villains such as Zero (or Niles) from SMG 4, The Kraken from Sponge Bob Square Pants, Chef from Trolls and Gallaxhar from Monsters vs. Aliens got rejected due to having a couple or few jokes/comedic scenes even though those 4 were mostly taken seriously in-universe and their actions weren't played for laughs. So, I didn't really see how Lotso and the Lich were any different. Other than that, though, I can see your point.
Edited by ComputeryGuy1614 on Feb 8th 2023 at 9:52:20 PM
Goku Black
Not really. Those four are from comedy works. The thing is nothing at all is intended to be taken seriously. These aren't.
Uh. Not really? For the stuff I'm familiar with.
- Gallhaxar destroying his planet is literally juxatposed with a comedic retelling of his autobiography.
- People destroy that town all the time in sponge bob and its played for comedy. Like all the time. Its not really any different.
Edited by miraculous on Feb 8th 2023 at 4:52:28 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Not really seeing the comparison either. Anyways cut Driscoll—was always suspicious there—and great rewrite/welcome back OE!
Goku Black
last of us rewrite.
Anyway I just watched Spenser Confidential
Okay now in all honesty. This guy has been brought up. But ruled a keep once for what he did to Gloria. Which don't get me wrong is bad but like this is the only stand out thing he does. His rapsheet amounts to: two other generic murders, two attempted murders. Now to be fair the whole tormenting her by killing her cat and than having his goons best her. But let's do a comparison for this kind of film. Considering this dude is a gang leader of an entire cabal of what looks like dozens of crooks.
The thing is I don't really think this guy is bad enough for you know a gang leader.
Like for comparison's sake for a bad guys who are similar to this dude:
I could probably go on but the point is made. See an issue...
Even for this kind of film? He's generic. Totally lacking in the kind of touches that guys like Stansfeld and Greer have to keep to balance out a lower body count.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."