To-do list:

• Move valid wicks of Horny Devils (plus its redirects, Horny Demons, Horny Devil, Incubus, and Succubus, to the new name, Succubi and Incubi, if they're valid. On-page examples may need to be cleaned as well since the page was locked until 2022, meaning some bad examples may be left over from the early days of the wiki.
• Clean up Hot as Hell's on-page examples so they match the retooled definition, which includes attractive and seductive demonic beings in general instead of just Satan, but still encompasses examples featuring Satan.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 29th 2022 at 6:02:34 AM

Paging ~Orbiting to the thread. Sexy Satan sounds like a good name for Hot as Hell (it's certainly better than the current), but I disagree with Our Succubi Are Different for Horny Devils since it covers incubi as well. Maybe we could call it either Our Succubi And Incubi Are Different or just Succubi and Incubi if the new name doesn't need to follow the "Our X are Different" naming scheme since the current one doesn't either (though the former would probably be better if we split the trope between Sexy Devil and an Our Monsters Are Different subtrope).

Edit: Now that I think of it, I don't see the need to split Sexy Devil off since Our Demons Are Different would probably be sufficient for depicting demons that don't steal souls/life force as attractive instead of monstrous, but I'll see what everyone else thinks.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 1st 2022 at 5:54:48 AM

OSAIAD is way too long, imo. I'd rather just Succubi and Incubi as the trope name.

I think you posted that before I edited my post to say that the proposed Sexy Devil split would probably already be covered by Our Demons Are Different (since depictions of them as attractive instead of monstrous would fit a trope about depictions being different), but yeah, I think Succubi and Incubi would be sufficient if we don't split, and I don't think a split is necessary.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 1st 2022 at 5:56:39 AM

to Succubi and Incubi

Renaming both. May need some time to think for names.

Throwing Sex Demon for Horny Devils. Brief and covers more than those two.

Didn't know Hot as Hell is even a trope, so I'm blanking here. Throwing in Satan Is Hot because Sexy Devil sounds too close Horny Devils.

Double posting because I tagged both pages (in Horny Devils' case, that saves everyone a trip to the Locked Pages thread).

Edit: Sex Demon sounds good for Horny Devils. Also, Sexy Devil was a proposed name for a new trope for sexy demons in general (as opposed to just the devil) and not a new name for Hot as Hell. The proposed name for Hot as Hell was Sexy Satan, which I think sounds better (and catchier) than Satan Is Hot.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 1st 2022 at 6:02:40 AM

I always thought Horny Devils was the Succubi / Incubi trope. If I ever needed Life Energy-eater, we have Vampiric Draining?

Don't think there's a strong need for split, if there is TLP can handle it.

May have misread a few things, I'm fine with Sexy Satan for now, though I still wonder if Satan+Horny Devils+Mr. Fanservice is too simple for own trope.

Horny Devils is for succubi and incubi. The name just doesn't make that completely clear, because it makes a pun on depictions of demons having horns using the slang meaning of "horny" at the expense of clarity.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 1st 2022 at 6:13:26 AM

Succubi and Incubi. Nice and straightforward.

Sex Demons for Horny Devils. Looking at the examples, there are examples of sex demons who aren't explicitly considered succubi/incubi in the work they show up in that may be overlooked if we name the trope more specifically

Sexy Satan, Satan Is Hot, Hot Satan, etc all are fine alternative names for Hot as Hell, but like Amonimus I do wonder about the tropeworthiness of Hot as Hell tbh. It's a Satan specific subtrope of Evil Is Sexy that i'm not sure adds anything relevant to Evil Is Sexy other than the Same, But More observation of "the christian embodiment of pure evil is depicted as being sexy"

Edited by amathieu13 on Oct 1st 2022 at 8:13:22 AM

Personally, I think it's tropeworthy, since Satan is the ultimate tempter and him being seductive helps underscore his skills at luring people into sin. Besides, Evil Is Sexy is subjective, whereas this isn't.

Thanks for making the thread, Gaston. I agree that Succubi and Incubi is a better name for the concept.

I had actually forgotten Vampiric Draining was a trope; disambiging Horny Devils between Vampiric Draining, Our Demons Are Different, and Succubi and Incubi should cover all the main uses.

Edited by Orbiting on Oct 1st 2022 at 12:26:18 PM

I wonder if the Hot as Hell trope should be expanded to cover "hot/sexy demons" in general instead of focusing on only Satan. That seems to be overly narrow.

I think Horny Devils was originally intended to be about succubi and incubi more generally than about any creature that feeds through sex regardless of what they're called. The problem is that someone edited the description of what succubi and incubi are to clarify that the preceding Example as a Thesis isn't how they were originally depicted, while accidentally making it come off as though "feeding through sex" is more important than "succubi/incubi", when that was probably never intended. This is what the page originally looked like.

I'm never a fan of when careless edits to the description of a page results in TRS getting a bad idea of what the trope is supposed to be and enacting more serious changes than are actually necessary, and I actually like Horny Devils as a name. That being said, even the most generous definition produces less than half proper use, with nearly a third of the usage being clear misuse.

As for Hot as Hell, until Image Pickin' recently installed an image of a hot male Satan, I'd always thought that trope was primarily about Satan being depicted as female, perhaps (despite the name and description) that part actually being more important than being depicted as sexy. Because that page also leads with an Example as a Thesis you can make a case that either is intended, and I get the sense that for quite some time after the trope was launched, most tropers figured the female part was more important.

While the original YKTTW did include a proposed male example it wasn't originally added to the page at launch and by 2010 the page not only contained all female examples (as well as lots of natter and ZCEs) it contained some figures that are questionably even Satanic Archetypes, such as the Marvel Universe version of Loki, who is only described as sometimes "tak[ing] on a female aspect".

It wouldn't be until January or February of 2011 that another superhero universe example of Everybody Hates Hades would provide a clear male example in the Western Animation section (with the page quote's clear use of "him" and the ZCE Bedazzled example being edited to include troper wank at the male original coming soon thereafter), but even at that time Image Pickin' (ironically enough) considered being a woman an important part of the trope, if not necessarily more important than being attractive (while also clearly seeing a lot of people mixing it up with Horny Devils even then, even though the page itself was mostly free of misuse).

By late 2013 there were only four male examples, with the one on the original YKTTW still being absent (and the Western Animation one having been removed!) (the Internet Archive's next copy isn't until the following March 31st, by which point the YKTTW example had finally been added); today there are still several examples that seem to think being a woman is all that's needed to qualify, including the Loki one.

I'm not sure I would say that Hot as Hell is more about Satan being female than about being sexy, but it's definitely an aspect of the trope that should be taken into account when figuring out what to do with it. I'm not sure there's enough tropeworthiness to support both of them being tropes (since "X but female" and "X but hot" are both generally presumed to be The Same, but More Specific or People Sit on Chairs); part of what makes it a thing is that female Satans are disproportionately likely to be attractive (because the reasons you'd make Satan a woman would also lead you to make her attractive, besides women in fiction tending to be Hollywood Homely at worst anyway) and vice versa (because Men Are Strong, Women Are Pretty), and the latter is more likely to be violated.

For the reason given if we had to emphasize only one part of the trope the attractiveness aspect is probably more tropeworthy (especially since the female aspect is more likely to lead from that than the other way around), though the female aspect is more heterodox to the usual depiction of Satan. The question is whether, if we decide to have a more general Sexy Demon trope, a Sexy Satan trope wouldn't just be The Same, but More Specific, if the former trope also used the element of temptation to defend its existence.

(The discussion in the above folder also suggests a decision will need to be made about how much a character needs to actually be Satan to qualify, since there was a decent period where non-Satan characters that are still singular figures in their respective mythologies would be listed but the page hadn't yet been taken over by every demonic Tom, Dick, and Harry tropers found attractive. Should any Satanic Archetype or case of Everybody Hates Hades qualify? How many, and which ones, of the items on the long list of elements that can make a character a Satanic Archetype should apply to make the character qualify?)

We can tackle the definitions when we tackle whether to rename.

Maybe these could be the options:

• Restrict Hot as Hell to depictions of Satan as an attractive woman instead of being attractive in general. Not mutually exclusive with renaming.
• Restrict Horny Devils to succubi and incubi instead of beings that feed through sex in general. Not mutually exclusive with renaming.

(These would be in addition to the rename options and the option for splitting of sexy demons in general from misuse of both tropes, and possibly folding Hot as Hell into the trope about sexy demons if it's made due to the The Same, but More Specific concerns.)

As for the image currently on Hot as Hell, I was also under the impression that depictions had to be female (and the part about having an hourglass figure in the opening paragraph backs this up), so the image threw me off. (I rarely go on Image Pickin' these days and I don't moderate it, so I haven't looked at the thread that chose that image.)

Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 2nd 2022 at 4:23:40 AM

Ngl I had no idea Hot as Hell even had a gendered aspect to it. That makes Hot as Hell even more nebulous as a trope, since Gender Flip already exists. I do agree with MorganWick that Hot as Hell need not be gendered for the idea of "Satan is Hot" to work, though.

My thinking is that "Satan is female" is much less a trope than "Satan is depicted as sexually attractive". Yes, there will be a lot of overlap but the former aspect makes for boring examples, and I wouldn't exclude that in works with female or LGBT heroes you'd see a hot male Satan.

&Those are good points. I think we should have a crowner option for rewriting the description of Hot as Hell (or whatever we call it if it's renamed) to include any depiction of Satan as attractive (regardless of gender), since part of the problem is the unclear Example as a Thesis description. This would be mutually exclusive with having the trope be Always Female.

Laconic.Hot As Hell focuses on sexiness in general, while only the first paragraph of the main page mentions being depicted as female.

Edit: Also, I wasn't saying Hot as Hell should be exclusively female in my previous post, just that I thought it was because that's the impression I got from the page when I first discovered that page years ago, especially since every image before the current was female (though the fact that they weren't depicting Satan is a problem in its own right).

Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 2nd 2022 at 4:59:04 AM

Limiting the concept of Hot as Hell to just Satan does seem too limiting. In my mind, the actual trope is "Demonic beings are attractive and seductive tempters". This would include both Satan and Succubi/Incubi, they just so happen to be the most famous examples, but a lot of media use the same archetype without explicitly naming the demon Satan or Succubi/Incubi

The concept of "life force drained via sex" sounds like it should be its own trope, just like Compelling Voice was split from the Siren trope. Succubi / Incubi just happen to be the most well-known mythological beings to do it.

Edited by BlackMage43 on Oct 3rd 2022 at 2:06:41 AM

PlayingWith.Out With A Bang perhaps, for sex that can but not certain will kill you?

As it says:

• Downplayed: Bob is having sex with Alice when he has a debilitating - but not fatal - stroke.

Edited by Malady on Oct 3rd 2022 at 2:43:06 AM

Tweaked the entry for restricting Horny Devils' definition a bit to remove the reference to Vampiric Draining. We can hash out where to put misuse later if that option wins; hopefully separating that from the crowner option makes it clearer.

Edit: And clarified that whether to split off the supertrope for draining life force via sex depends on what's done with Horny Devils' definition, since the current definition already appears to be more general than solely referring to succubi and incubi and the crowner options are meant to settle which definition should be used. We won't do that split if nothing is done to Horny Devils itself.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 4th 2022 at 7:11:10 AM