"Works About X" indexes

As am I. Voted yes on it.

During such a ban, would someone be able to make a new "About X" draft if they were able to make a convincing case for it elsewhere first (say, here)? (Think BUPKIS, I guess)

I think so. I would think the ban would just prevent the indexes from launching like what was done with new personal appearance tropes when the Personal Appearance Tropes cleanup thread was active. At least one of those drafts were put on hold (and is still on hold to this day).

Edited by MacronNotes on Jul 30th 2022 at 8:38:33 AM

I've been clicking through the Works by Subject subindexes and I've discovered nearly every single one that I've clicked launched within the last two years, with most launching in 2021.

Seems this proliferation of indexes is primarily a recent phenomenon.

EDIT: And one of them, Military and Warfare Works, was unilaterally created from a redirect without TLP by the now-banned AHI-3000.

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Jul 30th 2022 at 8:41:53 AM

In that case, I'm cool with it.

Yeah, when I first created the draft for Works by Subject (to organize the existing ones & move them off Genres, where at least some of them didn't belong), it was just a few creature/fictional being indexes (dinosaurs, ghosts, vampires, werewolves, witches, zombies) and a few ethnicity indexes.

Speaking of ethnicity/demographic indexes, no one seems to have a problem with those, so should those be declared an exception to the moratorium?

Edited by Twiddler on Jul 30th 2022 at 5:48:31 AM

thats interesting. I wonder if it coincides with an influx with more active users. I've had an account on the site since 2013, but I only really got active late 2020/2021 when I was stuck in lockdown/quarantine and nothing much else to do

And on the point that index drafts show up quite a bit, Avian Media just dropped at the TLP today.

This reminds me of the Animal Title Index, which has existed for about a decade, but I never saw the point of it. It's not an index of works about animals, but an index of works with animals in the title; what do Animorphs and My Little Pony have in common beyond that?

Well, it implies animals are in the work. Whether they actually do or not is a matter of Play.

Might some of that just be a Trivial Title? Hmm.

Edited by Malady on Aug 2nd 2022 at 5:25:12 AM

Of Mice and Men and I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings do not, in fact, really feature animals. The animals are used for symbolism.

That index def fits alot of the same issues as all of these other indices do. (As do Furry Comic and Furry Webcomics, which I almost forgot)

Edited by amathieu13 on Aug 2nd 2022 at 8:46:54 AM

I think it's within the scope of this conversation specifically because it isn't a title trope. It's just a list of works that are superficially connected by a supposed similarity that groups them, which is why we're here to begin with

Edited by amathieu13 on Aug 2nd 2022 at 8:55:53 AM

Now that I'm looking at the index, that seems to be right. I was confused because I was thinking of Animal Title(which is a redirect) I guess we can discuss that index here as well.

As for Avian Media the sponsor said they will discard after three days so I might not put that one on hold unless they change their mind..

Edited by MacronNotes on Aug 2nd 2022 at 9:03:21 AM

Remembered this discussion.

I think this is onto something. Take genre tropes: one fantasy work may use completely different fantasy tropes than another fantasy work, but they're both drawing from a common pool.

Same with a number of "Works about X" indexes: they catalogue works that draw from a common pool of tropes, featuring at least some of those tropes at the forefront — just like genre indexes. Robot and A.I. Works draw from Robot Roll Call (Robot Tropes). Dragon Works use Dragon Tropes.

Established fictional creatures inherently tend to involve tropes. Similarly, Dinosaur Media, by its nature, always necessitates a degree of artistic interpretation, which follows common and changing trends throughout the years as Science Marches On.

so....a genre page then.

There's definitely some overlap. I guess it depends how you define genre. (Something that got discussed extensively during the Works by Subject drafting stage: [1] [2])

Yeah, I wouldn't personally consider these things genres just because they can apply to many other genres and tones... but on the other hand IDK what else you'd call them.

I mean, a genre is broadly defined as a collection of works that share established conventions, be they theme, style, purpose, etc. "Drawing on a common pool of tropes" is within that.

I don't think we need to overcomplicate things if it looks like a duck and acts like a duck.

ETA: I do think in terms of narrative works, there's a tendency to limit genre to shared themes and plots, though. So as long as we're able to do the same with some of these works by x indices, we can transform them into genre trope pages and keep them imo

Edited by amathieu13 on Aug 10th 2022 at 4:09:25 AM

Hmm... A question is "What does 'Works about X' do that trope pages don't?"

For now, Trapped in Another World and A Dungeon Is You serve as "Isekai Index" and "Dungeon Core Index" because they haven't been used enough in enough variety to need splitting out into "genre pages" if we want to make something for "Find isekai works here".

But Vampires, Orcs, Elves, Fairies, etc, are now used beyond "Main Antagonist" so that "Vampire Fiction, Fairy Fiction", etc. are noteworthy, that those tropes are a prominent part of the stories listed, instead of just having incidental appearances?

Could / Should we make Vampire Fiction a Sub-trope of Our Vampires Are Different, so we aren't listing a work redundantly? Vampire Fiction obviously has vampires, and what makes them different and what prominent role they serve in story are the two pieces of required context for an entry?

...

In other things, are we done talking? Have all opinions been expressed and a summary of what to do can be made?

Edited by Malady on Aug 10th 2022 at 5:38:38 AM

That wouldn't work — Vampire Fiction wouldn't be listed as a trope example anyway.

I don't think they necessarily need to be turned into genre pages. I think they can be kept as separate, related but overlapping things. Genres is not where I would think to look for some of these.

For instance, Time Travel Tales are a subset of the genre Speculative Fiction, but the common focus on a certain category of plot trope (Time Travel Tropes) make it at once too specialized and too broad for me to think of it as a genre, since that is the only thing these works may have in common.

The demographic indexes also haven't been discussed much to my recollection. They're definitely not genres (though they may have genres within them).

Are you referring to the thread about expanding "first nations media" to include native South Americans?

I'm referring to the demographic indexes in general. They're pretty clearly a matter of subject rather than genre, and they've also been some of the least controversial Works by Subject pages in terms of their existence, with people only bringing them up reluctantly re: a general "Works about X" ban, and only because the pages technically would be affected by such a rule, rather than because they had a problem with the pages themselves.

If it's decided that these pages are fine, then we need to consider why, and what else that has implications for.

I consider them fine because they're things people would actually want to search for. People care about these things way more than if they care whether or not a work has robots in it, because it's just the way modern culture and the push for representation works.

I can google 'movies about robots' and get literally pages upon pages of results of 'greatest robot movies of all time', 'best robot movies for kids', 'robot movies that will make you question humanity', 'Robots in Cinema & Their Influence on Technological Advances', 'movies about robots taking over', 'history of film robots', 'Top 15 AI and Robotics Movies Showcasing Our Future Ahead', etc. etc.

I don't think every existing Works By X index that currently exists is valid and is worth saving. It goes back to the point I made many moons ago:

If a genre can credibly be made from, say Vampire Fiction, then my argument is it is better to have a genre page over these indices. My point has been from the get go that these indices either do not fulfill the purpose people have identified (i.e. as a way to collect and explain the different ways X is represented across works) considering that there is often no consistent portrayal across the works listed or, on the occasions that there are meaningful patterns to be shown, these indices function as a worse genre page/trope page, because they don't provide any other information other than a list.

Those pages that can be converted into a genre page or a trope page based on the organizing principle of these indices should be made. Or in the case of Time Travel Tales, merged with the appropriate trope pages that already exist that it's redundant with, i.e. Time Travel. Those that can't be converted or merged is likely because there is no solid organizing principle outside of the X and therefore they aren't useful enough to keep.

I haven't brought up representation indices mostly because everyone acknowledges they serve the unique purpose of real world representation of marginalized people. They are the least problematic to me.

Edited by amathieu13 on Aug 11th 2022 at 5:26:37 AM