WebOriginal.VirginVsChad & WebOriginal.Creamsicle -- troping memes

This popped up in the Adorkable TRS discussion.

WebOriginal.Virgin Vs Chad is a page that tropes collection of memes centred around these character and . It's not a single narrative or work. I believe troping memes is not allowed on TV tropes.

Should the page and its subpages be cutlisted? Or is is okay?

I'd put it on the cutlist in an instant, but with the page that huge, it's a thing that requires consensus.

A page with the very same issue: WebOriginal.Creamsicle.

I'd cutlist it. We Are Not Know Your Meme.

I'd keep them. Yes, we are not Know Your Meme (so we don't cover their detailed history, origin, spread, or have galleries like them), but memes are still original content (how original depends, but I think fall under the definition of fiction), have tropes (by characters/artstyle/themes and likely others), and this one also has lore and clearly defined characters. I have actually considered making a page on WebOriginal.Wojak which would also cover related memes like Doomer, Coomer, etc. (other clearly defined characters) but procrastinated.

That said, the page could definitely use ZCE cleanup, which I think this cleanup would be good for.

Edited by Piterpicher on Aug 27th 2020 at 5:36:45 PM

Is this even a work. It seems like just a bunch of random internet memes.

But have you read this wiki's guidelines? Troping memes is explicitly not allowed.

From Welcome to TV Tropes:

What we don't want:

• Articles or examples about the latest meme, news event, or Internet controversy. While this is covered in the preceding rule, it's worth giving extra attention to because it comes up a lot. There are lots of sites you can go to for this stuff, but TV Tropes is not one of them.

Memetic Mutation centred around a work is YMMV / Audience Reaction, so listing memes from a hit movie is fine to an extent (though definitely over-used) but we don't trope memes as such — like lolz cats, confused Travolta and whatnot. Not all original content or media content is worthy of a page even though it might be technically tropeable.

Definitely not a single work, but if I understand it correctly, there is a subreddit or something like this, and a bunch of people keep posting and making memes based on those characters.

These pages are really stretching the boundaries of what can be considered a work of fiction. I think they should both be cut.

I do know, though I feel like that was also based on using memes as tropes and not just works (for instance, Caramelldansen Vid and Rick Roll which used to be in Main/). And LOLCats does actually also have a page, though also infested with ZCEs.

Admittedly, I think there should be a Wiki Talk thread due to a potential change of attitude - it's 2020, the Internet is available to like half the population and memes are a legitimate part of culture, with hubs, lore, and characters dedicated to them (really, a thread discussing whether a page is deletable doesn't actually seem like Short-Term Project material, but more like Wiki Talk), to the point some could be considered legitimate works. It just seems like a remnant of an older userbase, probably not used to them and many memes back then not being as realised (by comparison, that Travolta thing is not original content).

Edited by Piterpicher on Aug 27th 2020 at 10:36:55 AM

Maybe all the memes should be moved to Just for Fun at least.

I was thinking that too.

JFF sounds okay. As long as we don't treat them like legit works, which they're not.

I feel like JFF namespace is becoming a sort of dumping ground. Or The All-Solving Hammer. Whenever there is a page with issues or broken rules, sending it to JFF is on the table. I'm not too comfortable with that.

Um, no. Wiki Talk is not for discussion of a single work page. Normally, it should be discussed on the discussion page attached to concrete articles, but these are not much used nowadays. This was also dealt with in TRS, which is cluttered and perpetually busy. Proposing a cut on Cutlist also used to have discussions attached, but they're not in use, I think.

Short term projects seemed the best choice.

Edited by XFllo on Aug 27th 2020 at 11:49:10 AM

Yes, Wiki Talk can be used for a single work page (and this one has two, with the potential for at least three). The Stonetoss thread was also about one work and in Wiki Talk, made so it wouldn't clutter the ROCEJ thread. Just mentioning that I agree with this not being JFF material, at least not the ones like VVC or Wojaks.

I still don't see why certain memes can't be considered works. At least, this one should be, since it does have distinct characters, and original content, and even lore (this one indeed has a characters page). I do think that it would be difficult to have pages on stuff like the "Is this a pigeon?" meme because it comparatively lacks those traits, and would likely end up just being random links to every time it supposedly fulfills the trope, but it may still be possible.

Still, I know this is a hot take, but I believe memes to be effectively modern art, and the Art index does have pages on several paintings which likely lack narrative. I think this video explains thoughts on them well, even if it does not necessarily reach a concrete conclusion. But seriously people, I think you should consider the evolution of memes/their formats and the Internet has potentially led to some becoming legitimate works made by a community, it's not all advice animals/cat videos/roflcopters these days (even if I'm nostalgic for the last one). Going to sleep now, I may talk back tomorrow.

Edited by Piterpicher on Aug 27th 2020 at 8:56:47 PM

Hmm... I can see the potential in keeping the Virgin Vs Chad meme page. The characters page, especially, definitely demonstrates today's social attitudes, and the several groups inhabiting the Internet today (I once read an article on Vox where the writer was interpreting it as an incel community meme, but then you have the wimpier incel character who seems like a Take That!). I guess you could call these memes surreal art, and the lolcats, Rickrolls, and All Your Base Are Belong to Us the cave paintings of the Internet.

As long as something has three tropes, it deserves a work page. Call me a Gen Z-er, but I support keeping it now.

Edited by ccorb on Aug 27th 2020 at 7:08:48 AM

I mean, I'm a gen Z-er too and I just don't think memes qualify as works. They're worth discussing, but they're not works. The works we discuss have narratives and creators and intent- memes simply don't have those things. Well, they have creators and intent, but they're not the same creators and the intents can very wildly.

We also have pages for things like OS-tan moe anthropomorphisms, although that page's examples describe the characters pretty well.

Edited by ccorb on Aug 27th 2020 at 8:11:06 AM

This looks like a policy discussion, so I've moved it to Wiki Talk.

Okay, thank you. I actually thought discussing concrete articles (that have been brought up before — in this case in TRS for Adorkable) are supposed to be in Short-term Projects, but this is fine, too.

It started as cutlist discussion for two pages, but now the scope seems bigger.

I'll be better to rename this thread to something more concise.

How about "Should We Have Work Pages for Memes?"

Thanks for moving this to Wiki Talk, this is what I've been proposing all this time. I'd support the rename. I kinda think the discussion will potentially lead to us deciding what types of memes as well (like just memes like dancing Travolta vs. original memes like roflcopters and other lol drawings vs. original memes with distinct characters like VVC and Wojaks), but we'll see. Admittedly, almost all of them lack narrative, but it's not like lack of narrative stopped us - yes, it stopped Stonetoss, but that wasn't the only reason and we have plenty of pages on narrative-less games for instance (there's a reason why No Plot? No Problem! exists, though it has to be assumed by default for certain media types).

Edited by Piterpicher on Aug 28th 2020 at 1:37:56 PM

I suppose it goes without saying, but I absolutely do not support work articles for memes. They are not coherent works written by an author with narrative intent. Even if you make the case that the original meme is a creative work, it might have what... two objective tropes? The rest is all audience reactions, and a work whose tropology consists entirely of audience reactions is not really a work.

I'm not quite ready to stretch the definition of a work to a collective phenomenon borne of the Internet hivemind. Maybe it's my tired, cynical GenX brain that just doesn't "get" this stuff...

Edit to clarify: I get memes; that's not the issue. I don't get why we'd want to trope them.

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 28th 2020 at 7:46:12 AM

Other meme-y works that have a page here:

• Webcomic.Polandball: Nations as People comics, characterization and narrative is Depending on the Writer, but the anthropomorphisms generally have enough personality and National Stereotypes to trope. Here's its Wikipedia article.
• JustForFun.Bowsette: Has several tropes on the user-created universe as well as of its characters. Wikipedia finds it notable enough to have its own article.

Then maybe Bowsette deserves a works page.

Edited by ccorb on Aug 28th 2020 at 8:09:52 AM

Hang on. Collaborative works are still tropable. I've seen Polandball comics in a number of places and I actually wasn't aware they had multiple unconnected authors.

Edited to add: There's no rule saying a meme cannot get promoted to a real work. If Bowsette qualifies, great.

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 28th 2020 at 8:12:36 AM

It absolutely is.

Narrative-less video games still have Video Game Tropes.

I don't see the issue with tossing things in JFF- as long as they're, you know, fun. I feel like a lot of us have been so focused on clean up for so long that we're more cynical even when things are just supposed to be fun- and I think discussing memes qualifies as that, if nothing else.

We shouldn't just shunt everything to JFF, but...

You kind of contradicted yourself there, which perfectly illustrates the issue.

What standard should we use to decide what goes in JFF? If none, then what rationale would we potentially use for deleting something from it that wouldn't apply to other things we've already allowed?

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 28th 2020 at 3:00:35 PM